Questions about Religion

[soul .gc]

Clueless stated it up top.

[jane]

It doesnt matter whether the bible can be proven historically( since it can and has been) or whether the God in it exists(which He does). What matters is how you treat the information inside. If you treat it purely historical, you will find that it is backed up 100%, even if you count the small numbers of what we call historical documents( we take julius cesear at his word about the galic wars....no one else even mentions them. ever). If you treat it purely with faith, then you will find that faith releases you from needing those physical proofs in the first place. It is freedom the Bible talks about. Find it. Logic is not an end to itself. It is a means to an end. But life and love are everlasting, through God. There is no end with Him.

[bear^]

(part one)

i think this is somewhat related to this conversation

 

praying...

 

Doesnt God have a divine plan?

 

So why do people pray? Will God change this "divine plan" because someone prays for something different than he has planned?

 

(part two)

had to include this, im sorry if im unorganized

 

This bothers me... you see it a lot at awards presentations on TV, famous people thanking God for making them what they are

 

what about the guh-jillion other ppl in the world that have it no where near as good as these famous people... spending all kinds of $ on stuff they dont need, while millions of others on the planet suffer... yes, your right "johnny famous", thank God indeed!

 

Maybe they should be praying for God to make them a better person... or maybe someone should slap these ppl in the face!

 

*SLAP CRACK BAM*

[soul .gc]

1 - I believe he does have a plan but it changes as we change and grow and make good/bad decisions. So people pray and ask for his support and guidance and look within themselves to find the correct path they need to take. At least that is my view on it.

 

2 - Depends here - I am sure he had a hand in some of them, others I believe just mouth the words because it is what their publicist said to do... God did not create us all to be identical robots, we all have individual personalities, traits and idiosynchrocies that change our paths on a daily basis. Just as God has played a part in where I am in my life, he has most likely played a part in movie stars as well. But to bring out anger or bitterness towards God because someone else is a star and I am not is wrong in my opinion. If they are that bitter then they should be praying and working with God on a way to change their current situation - career/location/family/etc...

[ishmael]

1 - I believe he does have a plan but it changes as we change and grow and make good/bad decisions.

then he is not all knowing and by your own logic god disapears in a puff of contradiction. if he knew everything, he would not have to change anything.

[Nimon]

Sorry I'm late. I wrote most of this a couple of months ago, but then a downed computer, working overtime, and the joys of selling a house ran interference. There are responses to several people in here. Hopefully who would want to see it, will. So, without further ado...part 1.

 

 

Full disclosure: I grew up in the church and became a Christian at a young age. Nothing fancy after that other than the usual waxing and waning in my closeness to God. I've been reading the Bible on a daily basis since probably fourth grade, a habit that has helped me to not stray too far during the times when I was being particularly obtuse. My beliefs have changed quite a bit over the years--hopefully due to an increase in understanding--but the core is still same. I have no qualms about questioning my own beliefs and searching for answers. Consequently, in all the relevant readings/talks/discussions/debates I've been involved in, no one has ever made me doubt my faith--how could anyone challenge me more than I already have myself?

 

Then there's my wife, who tried Christianity as a teen, but found it a horrifying experience. She was a neopagan when I met her and became a Christian about four years later. Unknown to me, I was an annoying counterexample to the pigeon hole she wanted to put Christians in. Her conversion came in the middle of the night through two (audible) discussions with God; her part during the first one was...heated, but during the second she literally surrendered. Since then, her life has gotten much more interesting. First of all, she married me, which would do in most people. She's also had glimpses of both heaven and hell, flown with God (which is ironic, considering she never flew as a pagan), and seen many things beyond most people's sight. When it comes to demonic battles, she's the warrior, I'm the support. (And once those started, my life got a bit more interesting, too.)

 

Everything that I have seen, heard, done, or had happen to me that I attribute to God or the spiritual realm could be explained by coincidence, pattern matching, or plain old wishful thinking. The things my wife has seen, heard, and done could be explained through imagination, delusions, or mental illness. Consequently, I view them as evidence, not proof, and I believe, not know, even though I there is zero doubt in my core beliefs.

 

I personally have a hard time in beleiving something when fact contradicts it, for example, we have scientific proof of how worlds are created, and evidence that ours was created in the same way the theories and proof show.

I suspect you use "proof" the way Unclean has elsewhere, which is to say "evidence." We do not have proof of how worlds are created. If we did, we wouldn't need theories.

 

There is no proof of anything written in the bible, only faith keeps the belief alive.

If you mean evidence, there's a lot of evidence. Theology aside, the Bible is a rich historical document, full of cultures, places, customs, and events, many of which can also be found in other sources. As a bonus, the traditions of Israelites made them anal retentive when it came to copying their scriptures, so the rate of scribing errors was kept low.

 

If you really mean proof, well, there's not proof of much in history.

 

The other thing to remember, is that the book was written by man,not a God

Many Christians view it as the inspired Word of God or "God breathed." What they mean by that can vary--some read it literally, others like myself do not--but your argument isn't likely to prove useful in discussions with us.

 

We as humans, cannot accept the fact that we only exist for a short time,we feel immortal.

Or we have a built-in spiritual need. I had an agnostic roommate who, while not believing in anything outside the material world, recognized that need in himself and was active in the UU church. Have there been any cultures without a spiritual component?

 

I also think that it keeps people in line, if it was a known fact that there is no God, the world would be chaos, people would act like animals without the fear of going to hell.

One of the Founding Fathers of the US--I want to say Jefferson--who was not a Christian felt the same way, but I don't buy it. Do atheists act like animals?

 

I guess I have the same questions as a lot of people, whats out there? Is there a God? If so, why does he let things happen to children? Why doesnt he give people signs when their faith waivers and they ask for guidence?

As far as the "why bad things happen to good people" question, I view that as a consequence of free will. Our choices, amplified through the chaos of billions of people making choices, result in a lot of bad things happening. God can micromanage our lives for us, or he can let us make choices. Understand, I do believe God involves himself in our lives every day, but free will is always there.

 

As for your last question, I can think of several answers off the top of my head. Which one would you like me to put in God's mouth? We're not God. He sees the big picture to beat all big pictures, and he knows us individually better than we know ourselves. Stuck as we are, seeing only a small segment of an imperfect world, it does take faith to believe that God is both just and merciful. For many people, I think that is a much greater leap of faith than believing God exists.

 

I also refuse to believe that we are the only life in this huge universe, seems like a waste. But the religious people are taught that we are the only ones.

Such a broad sweep with "religious." CS Lewis--hopefully we can agree he was a religious man--wrote of his concerns should we ever encounter ETs. One was that we will try to "convert" them when they may not be fallen. I was certainly never taught that we were the only ones, although I have heard an apologetics speaker making that claim.

 

I struggle to see how religion can be 'real' if it depends on what type of society you are born into.

In my view--and I do not believe this is outside mainstream Christianity--the "religion" of Christianity is mostly trappings. All that matters for salvation is your personal relationship with the Christ. While Paul tells us (the church) to judge fellow Christians who are in error, he also tells us that it is not our place to judge those outside the church--we have no say in who is or is not saved.

 

After all, the version the bible you are reading today, was translated in the 1600's, the time of shakesphere, under the rule of King James....

The version I primarily use was translated about forty years ago. Some of the sources they used were not available to the King James translators. (I do, however, also have a King James. It has an especially useful feature: "thou" is singular and "ye" is plural, but both are translated as "you" in modern translations and paraphrases. That can sometimes change how you read a passage.)

 

I would highly recommend you do some research and further your knowlege into other religions.

There were two mandatory religion classes at the church-affiliated college I went to: Basic Issues of Faith and Life, which was what you'd expect at a Christian school; and Religion and Human Identity, which covered multiple religions. The semester I took it we spent most of our time on the Souix, Judaism, and Buddhism, but it changed from year to year.

[Nimon]

Part 2.

 

"when do you stop researching religions?"

Never. If we assume that, being human, our understanding of the divine is flawed, we should never stop trying to improve that understanding. I don't suggest a continuous sampling of religions throughout your life, but I do suggest that you continually ask questions and push the limits of your understanding.

 

BigBones - ya, it'd be nice to hear a religious person's insight in this one.  In the meantime, we could continue this way:  it sounds like you think science and religion are at odds.

Obviously, I don't. Nor do a lot of scientists who believe in God. The Vatican has hosted gatherings of astrophysicists, so they don't seem to have a problem. For those who do, I suspect this is another case of "religious" meaning "Christians who believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible." While a lot of Christians do, I do not think they are in the majority.

 

My first one is Noahs arc.

I've found discussing such events with those who read them literally to not be very useful; the all-powerful aspect of God provides a ready explanation for such things. More productive examples are ones that lessen the power of God. In Jeremiah, for example, God tells the prophet that he thought Israel, after doing all those evil things, would return to him, but they didn't. Taken literally, this seems either an error in judgment or an imbalance between justice and mercy; either way, God seems to have made a mistake. I also like to point out that Jesus used stories to teach, so why wouldn't God through the prophets? Those questions aren't going to change minds, but sometimes they'll prompt someone to delve deeper into the questions and their own beliefs. I see that as a good thing.

 

Unfortunately, of those who believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible, many I have encountered have an understanding of Christianity that, at best, is at a children's-Sunday-school level. However, while you may be tempted to use that as an excuse to dismiss the arguments of those who interpret the Bible that way, that would be a mistake. I know some very intelligent, well-educated Christians whose opinions on theological matters I give considerable weight, yet they believe in a young earth, six-day creation, etc.

 

On a related note, I find it interesting when people who do not believe in the Bible justify their nonbelief by interpreting it literally. Hmm.

 

I'll have to study the Bible a bit more to discuss about other issues

Gee, that's a shame.

 

You guys ever hear the old Bill Cosby piece on Noah?

He has at least three Noah routines. All good stuff and in my collection, but the St Paul insurance company has a TV commercial that is even funnier. It shows Noah doing the collecting.

 

Doesnt God have a divine plan? So why do people pray?  Will God change this "divine plan" because someone prays for something different than he has planned?

Prayer isn't about changing God's plan. It is open and free communication with God. I can tell him things, ask him things, and just spend time together. And when I do ask God for something, I'm not asking him to change his plan because I don't know what his plan is. For all I know, me reaching the point of asking is bringing me in line with his plan.

[*BiGBonES**]

Wow ninom, that must have taken a good couple of hours to write!

 

Thanks, I believe I have learnt something

[Clueless]

It was my error when I didnt see that this was a debate forum, I originally thought this to be just an adult conversation amongst people that were just confused about the whole thing, and wanted to discuss thier thoughts on all of it.

 

If anyone wants to open a topic somewhere other that this, where it can be casually talked about without the debate barracuda's jumping in and trying to rip everyone apart and prove to everyone how smart they think they are, that would be cool.

 

I just wanted to share my thoughts and hear others, these debate forums are too ugly for my liking.

 

(should'nt this be in the cellar?)

Edited September 11, 2005 by Clueless .gc

[Preacher]

I think a note of love has been missed here. I'm not going to try and back this all up with historical or scientific fact because, like stated above, this is not a political debate. When God created man he wanted to spend every day with us. When man sinned he separated himself from God and so God again made it possible for man to spend time with him through prayer. God loves us, he sees all the stuff we do that will slap him in the face prior to our births, but still allows our existance. I believe inside every human being there is a core need to search for God. God doesn't create people who don't believe in him, our society does that. We struggle to find the face of God in a world pent on denying His existance. Whether you believe God is there or not doesn't change God. Whether you think all the Bible is true or not doesn't change the truethfulness of it. Truth is truth. For many years in the mid-late 20th century archaeologists stated that there was no city of Jerico, but when it was finally discovered it just proved that regardless of whether we believe in the truth, truth is unaffected by it.

 

God loves us, we're unlovable, He still loves us and makes it possible for us to be with Him. This is the absolute truth and reason for life the world and everything as asked by Douglas Adams

[Unclean]

Whether you think all the Bible is true or not doesn't change the truethfulness of it. Truth is truth. [...] regardless of whether we believe in the truth, truth is unaffected by it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This creates the core question: how do we know truth from non-truth? What happens if the devil is giving his speech saying "sorry Christians, the Jews were right" (a la Rowan Atkinson)?

 

Or is it more similar to what Nimon said -- that we should never stop searching for the truth?

[Preacher]

Personally I believe the study and search for knowledge is never wasted. The little hints left behind by civilizations that are mentioned in the Bible gives light and credence to the reports written of in the Scripture.

 

Likewise the world we live in gives us hints that there are some things that can't be explained by what we see, feel and hear. These things are simply the beginning. What God really wants is not religeon but a new relationship with us. The search is part of all of us, whether you are a Christian or whether you are still searching for the truth, I am here to say that the moment you reach out to God's waiting hand is the moment that your life becomes better.

[NOFX]

What I learnt once, is ALOT of people ask way to many questions....just absorb it and make up your own mind. Question it if you dont understand, dont question it so you can prove it wrong.

Edited September 14, 2005 by NOFX

[soul .gc]

...debate barracuda's jumping in and trying to rip everyone apart and prove to everyone how smart they think they are...

 

I was just pointing out that your statement was 100% incorrect, that was all.

 

...regardless of whether we believe in the truth, truth is unaffected by it.

 

well said.

[Gunman]

"Do you believe in a million dollars?"

 

"Yeah."

 

"Have you ever seen a million dollars?"

 

"No..."

 

"Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist..."

[Unclean]

I'm not following ya, Gunman... who's saying anything about having to see something to believe it?

[auggybendoggy]

I dont think cluless meant its 100% true or untrue but rather meant its not perfect?

 

I'm trying to make sense of it all : )

 

I've been altering my beliefs in God as I find if I interpret scripture literally it ends up contradiciting. The proof that God exists is not a burden of proof. It is a belief and does not need to be proven. At least thats how I feel. If you choos not to believe in a creator then knock yourself out trying to figure out what this all is that we're living. I feel the creator belief (theory whatever you want to call it) is the best option.

 

Aliens creating us does not explain life. Who created them? and Who created them who created tha aliens and so on.

 

An eternal God makes more sense but leaves my at "illegal operation".

 

If a pc (using windows xp59690) were alive to think it could never understand what it is like to be human. We cannot understand God.

Simply put, whatever is out there you wont GRASP!

 

I tend to believe we do grasp it and we (man kind) has seen it. We always say if we see God with out own eyes we will die. But I don't think like that anymore. I think love is it. I believe God is love.

 

As for proving it... again, I don't think people need hard facts to believe in something. Heak what fun would star wars be if its all things are based on facts. I think believing in God is beneficial to the UMPH degree since the moral is to love your enemies, not BLOW EM UP!

 

Aug

[Clueless]

Nice post Auggy, thank you.

[Preacher]

Charles Spurgeon (19th century preacher) once told the story that he was walking along the beach and was praying, he asked God to help him to understand all there was to know about God. God spoke to him and said you see that puddle? I want you to take the whole ocean and put it in that puddle. That's what it would be like putting all of God into your small brain.

 

I may have told it a little off but that is the point of the story. When you look for God you will find Him, it's a promise from Him. Paul says that even those who don't know God are stirred to search for Him by seeing the wonders of nature. And God is Love!

[DJ Premier]

Religion to me is a man made construct designed to provide risk/reward scenarios to suffering people. Basically, if you believe in god, you go to heaven, if you don't, you burn in hell.

 

If there was no heaven nor hell, there would be few who would follow religion.

 

It's basically a philosophy created to keep people in line. Some say there is no morality w/o religion. These are the types of people who further the cause of using religion to keep people in line. Fear is a powerful tool. And it is used often in religion.

 

That is why the poor and destitute are typically the ones who are the most devout. While the weathly and educated typically call religion a farse.

[Preacher]

That is a common agnostic belief you put out there. I'm sure that you could find a number of religions that were designed by man that would fall in line with your philosophy there, but if you are right then an overwhelming majority of people are idiots. Leaving which religeon is right to another argument, you must realize that 90+% of the inhabitants of the Earth believe in some form of God. The word Society is defined as a people with a religeous structure of some sort in the group (more to it than just that but see any sociology textbook). If you are under the impression that there is no wind , but that it's the skins reaction, trees react leaves ect to some other source because you don't see the wind. It does not mean that there is no wind and that everyone else is wrong because you don't believe it.

 

God doesn't need us to believe in Him for His existance to be real.

Edited November 6, 2005 by Preacher

[DJ Premier]

Absolutely. God could exist. But then he/she also could not. Because 90+% of the world believes in some god doesn't mean that god exists. e.g., the world is not flat because we all believe it to be.

 

Human beings in general have a need for explanations of the unknown. Human beings must also believe that there is some meaning in something. They also must feel purpose and they are also arrogant.

 

e.g., we are made in the image of god.

 

Religion provides a means for explanation anything that you may want to be explained. You may not like the explanation, but it always provides one. Even if its as simple as saying, "it was gods will".

 

But not everyone feels this way. Not everyone needs an explanation. And some things may not have an explanation but rather just...is.

 

e.g., maybe something doesn't have to have a beginning and an end. Why the search for the beginning of the universe? Maybe it was always just...there. This concept is too hard to swallow for most of us. therefore we explain it away but saying something created us...or there was a big bang.

 

These things are why I believe religion is a deeply personal relationship between a person and god. It is different for everyone. And the same can be said for those who want no relationship with god. They simply dont believe in god.

 

This leads to my last point. Religion as a personal relationship is what I believe religion was meant to be. It goes outside its boundaries when one person's views and religion is being forced upon another through laws that effect everyone. That is today problem. Evangelicals are trying to force feed their belief system on the rest of the world through common laws and through enforcement. I believe it simply goes against the idea of religion itself and hurts us all.

[Preacher]

I can't see how the evangelical views could hurt anything. Moral codes are the basis for every society - the fact that the evangelicals propose that you take the moral code you already adhere to and add more laws to it, simply make you more controled and less prone to doing stuff that could be construed as an abasement to others or yourself.

 

I personally would say I'm evangelical by nature but the basis of this comes from a greek word which means to give what you have that is good. I like to "share " my faith. Imposing any belief on others is fultile and silly. I can't make you believe that the color of grass is blue no matter how convincing I am in my argument because you can go check it out for yourself. The reason I share my experiences with God with others is because not everyone identifies the things of God to God.

 

Keep searching for answers because one of the promises of God is that if you seek you will find my friend.

Edited November 7, 2005 by Preacher

[DJ Premier]

Imposing any belief on others is fultile and silly.

 

right. i have no qualms with evangelicals if they just do that..evangelize. but once that steps into laws that are used to govern the nation, the evangelicals have stepped over the line. It's one thing to share you experiences and viewpoints. It's an entirely different thing to force someone to believe you and follow you by making it a crime or illegal to do otherwise.

 

There is a backlash against christians these days due to this exact behavior. So if you are of the evangelical type that supports the behavior of enacting religious christian views into law, you are doing the OPPOSITE of what you want because it is turning people away from the church.

[auggybendoggy]

i know its been a while since the last post but i read and have to say DJ wins my vote on that last post.

 

It is a bit odd that conservatives want the judean christian views to become law. I hear people complaing abot "no prayer in schools!!!"

but don't want islamic prayers being taught to their children. At what point did Jesus use GOV. to change the world. Seems "give what belongs to ceasar" means don't worry about taxes, politics and ammendments to change the world. I agree that there are some issues (abortion) that may challenge us but to use scripture to create law is a bit overstepping the bouderies.

 

Aug