Universalism

[auggybendoggy]

Lately my father in law has been studying this and sharing it with me. I'm actually drawn towards it since it harmonizes Calvinism and Armineism. Lately I've been wondering and doubting the justness of God due to my reformed beliefs.

 

I have these problems with both parties.

 

a: If I say God pre-determined many for hell and few for heaven and there is no choice in the matter then God is not just.

 

b: If I say God leaves it up for grabs (random) then few are fortunate (lucky) and many unfortunate (unlucky).

 

I don't believe these conclusions are accurate. They are tantamount to the systems however.

 

Universalism (as I am understanding it) takes the scriptures that "all men will be saved" literally. I believe the ideaology is that Hell is not a eternal place of torture but rather a place of purification? I'm not totally sure about this.

 

It resolves calvinisms "God is a cruel God" system by saying God will not punish man forever.

 

it resolves aremenism by saying God does indeed want ALL men to be saved and has not pre-destined some for eternal punishment.

 

any thoughts.

 

auggy

[Playaa]

a: If I say God pre-determined many for hell and few for heaven and there is no choice in the matter then God is not just.

 

b: If I say God leaves it up for grabs (random) then few are fortunate (lucky) and many unfortunate (unlucky).

 

what about:

c: God gave enough evidence for all men to believe in him and allowed all men the choice to believe in him but he also knew which men would believe in him anyway.

 

is that not a valid option?

[Norguard]

Two, actually:

 

I'm more of a pentecostal mind than of a reform. Even so, the evangelicals and the charismatics would back me up. Even the seventh day adventists.

 

Jesus' final command was to go out into all of the lands and make disciples of the people. I think that going out and doing good works (not necessarily evangelism) is a part of the religion. It's certainly not the only part, but it is a part. Many religions are purely elective in nature -

 

"God will only take 300 000 or so, anyway, so if I'm really, really good, I might get to go, but I'll bet it's already filled, so what's the point? But if I don't let anybody in on this whole religion thing, and it stays a secret, there may well be room on the bus."

 

That's kind of fatalistic. Especially for a view of heaven. I'd like to think that the place is a little more vast than that. I walked from one end of Toronto to the other, opposing corner, two weeks ago, and it holds about 9% of Canada's population. If heaven is only 9% of Toronto... ...well, wow.

 

I don't have all of the answers as far as atonement for sin, except that it was Jesus' calling in life. If God is love, and God loves, I don't know that he can rule in a place devoid of all that is good, where there is a fire, burning in the darkness. I think that God is pure and perfect and hates sin, and it breaks his heart to have to deal with an unrepentant heart. I also think that's our fault as human beings, not his fault, even though he knows it's going to happen.

 

If he had his way, and we were all forced/predestined to be good and perfect and joyous, we may as well be cattle, or sea monkies. There's no love there. Love is a conscious decision between two people, so it's your choice. And unrequited love sucks. I'm positive that God deals with it constantly. On the other hand, I don't think he predestines people to break his heart, either. That's just a messed up, self-destructive way of playing The Sims.

 

On the other hand, I don't feel that every single person who isn't a Christian is doomed.

 

Paul says that any man who follows the laws of Jehova, and keeps them close to his heart, filled with love, even though he has never been told of the Lord, God will honour that man. I don't have time to go spelunking for those two verses, but they're in there. So yes, I also refuse to believe that 6 000 000 people who have been unsaved have been cursed.

 

Just some uncooked thoughts that started bouncing around when I read that.

Edited June 6, 2005 by Norguard

[auggybendoggy]

what about:

c: God gave enough evidence for all men to believe in him and allowed all men the choice to believe in him but he also knew which men would believe in him anyway.

 

is that not a valid option?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

well again. all men might believe there is a God but is it just that some men got good parents or a better minister to help them. One person gets Billy Graham for a dad the other gets howard stern. One gets loved the other gets beaten.

 

The question of free will is even bleak in the arm. camp is what I'm discovering.

 

The idea that it's mans fault or...he didn't have to pull the trigger... has it's problems. I understand we ARE NOT responsible for our salvation. A good reformed poitions would state that YOU HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. Yet many reformed people tell me "YOU HAVE TO RESPOND".

 

My issue is not whether one is repsonsible though. The issue of freewill is more questionable on the basis that not all men are conditioned the same to make the choice.

 

I find it absurd to say ..."even though the child was beaten from 6 months of age and never loved by his parents, he had the choice to be a good man."

NONSENSE!

He did not have the choice is my point.

 

We tend to argue that we are all responsible for our own actions yet Adam sinned and we're all punished. Thats the point.

 

so sorry playya I don't think C is a valid option

if it is then B is true. Some are fortunate to get good ministers or parents or freinds and some arent.

 

Aug

[Playaa]

I find it absurd to say ..."even though the child was beaten from 6 months of age and never loved by his parents, he had the choice to be a good man."

NONSENSE!

He did not have the choice is my point.

I wholeheartedly disagree with you there. He ALWAYS had the choice. The choice just wasn't equally easy or simple for him as it was for the man who's parents nurtured and loved him.

 

I have a problem with people assuming life is supposed to be fair and that we are all supposed to be on equal footing. It's an idea that we as humans created because we don't want to take responsibility for our own actions. So we argue that since something was harder for me than it was for someone else, that means that that "something" wasn't meant for me

Nothing about Christianity and God and all that claims that life was ever fair or equally easy for everyone.

[auggybendoggy]

play,

I'm saying under either system of Calv or Arm God seems to be unfair.

It may be simple for a person like us to say "life is not fair but we all have to make the same equal choice". But for a person who was taught to do wrong and ends in a disaster ending, he would argue "it's not fair". Just as I stated

1 is born to billy graham

1 born to howard stern.

Life is not fair. But if that is the case they why Does God require an equal choice.

 

I totally disagree with you that he had a choice. Most people see choice as physically having an option but not many people consider the mental options. Some people are pre-conditioned by parents or events. We are all pre-conditioned. But for those who are born unto DESPERATLEY lost familys they are pre-conditioned opposite of those who's parents raise their children in the ways of God.

 

I believe there can be mental restraints on choice. Simply cause no one has hancuffed the person does not mean he has a choice. If he has been conditioned for something then he will choose that. That is NOT FREE WILL.

 

Still my point is that under both systems free will seems faulty.

either your lucky or unlucky (left to chance)

or predesitned for life or pre-destined for death.

 

Universalism says hell is termporary to purify one and reconcile em back to God. They claim (i havent researched this) that there is no passage that says MEN will eternally be punished.

 

This would solve the tension of freewill and pre-destination cause in the end ALL MEN ARE SAVED.

 

strange doctrine but it's worth checking out.

 

Aug

[Playaa]

I don't get why you're throwing all these doctrines out and ideas that other men have. What does it matter what other men believe? Truth is truth no matter how someone inteprets it.

 

I totally disagree with you that he had a choice.

 

I see we disagree...how do we come to agreement on this? I FIRMLY believe that all men have choices, they just use the excuse of upbringing and environment as an excuse.

 

Example (and I know I've talked about this in the past too):

I have a friend who was diagnosed with ADHD. He was told by doctors he would only be able to keep his actions under control with drugs. Yet when he doesn't have those drugs and he is acting wild, I can encourage him that if he actually TRIES to control his actions and keep himself in check, he will be fine. And when he DOES try...he IS fine. He has power over his actions, even though those actions are more difficult to control than they would be for me.

 

Life is not fair. But if that is the case they why Does God require an equal choice.

who ever said it was an equal choice? The choice is vastly difficult for some and amazingly easy for others. Just because the consequences of the choice are the same doesn't mean the choice itself is the same. And in fact, who are we to say that the consequences are even the same? It's entirely possible that for someone raised in a Christian home and someone raised in a completely opposite home to make that choice...and it's possible that God looks on the choice of the 2nd as better.

In fact, the Bible even talks about something like this. Remember the parable of the woman who had only a small amount to give to the church for offering? And she gave it all even though it was MUCH less than what others around her were giving. Christ said (can't find the verse right now) that her offering was worth more than all those offerings given by those with wealth. Why did he say that? Because hers was much harder to give.

[Playaa]

http://www.biblegateway.net/passage/?searc...20Luke%2021:2-4

 

the 2 verses dealing with that woman.

[auggybendoggy]

indeed we do disagree then play.

 

I'm not throwing anything out. I'm just saying that under Calv God creates many people for hell w/o a free will to choose.

 

Under Arm. God allows many to be raised with pre-conditions that make the descision (he wants them to make) impossible.

 

I see we agree that the choice is not equal. And it seems you agree that many who are expected to become christians will have a more difficult time than others. But I'm not really pointing to those who have a MORE DIFFICULT time.

 

I'm talking about a child of 6 months of age whos beaten to a pulp by his own mother and never loved. He'll end up a cook and I don't think it's his fault. I tend to think God will have mercy on him. So usually we blame his mom and dad. But they were beaten at 6 mos of age. WHOS TO BLAME.

 

This is the big question of "what does paul mean of Romans 9"...

Jacob I loved, Esau I hated...

God will have mercy on whom he has mercy...

God told pharoa I raised you up for this very purpose...

So some of you will say "how can God blame me if he made me like this". but who are you to talk back to God...

Does not the potter have the right to do with the lump of clay...

 

The usual answer from a reformed is "YOU are to blame EVEN THOUGH God made you choose sin".

 

This is repulsive and was respulsive to john wesley who stated "calvinism will make your blood run cold".

 

This issue of equality of choice is more poblematic for armenians however. its not more wonderful to say one man is given a ULTIMATUM to choose God, with ease but another man with GREAT resistance. The ultimate end logic is to blame the devil. Similar to asking "why does bad things happen to good people". We reason the devil messed up this world and now some are lucky and some arent? is it really luck?

ahhhhh so now the arminain says "NO NOT LUCK!!! BLESSED! the other CURSED!" so were right back to calvinism.

 

Aug

[Playaa]

God never MADE anyone choose sin....just because it is MUCH easier to make that choice for some, that doesn't mean that God made them do it. You're thinking with the idea that God controls everything. I don't believe that just because God CAN control everything that he does. A man and a woman beat thier child from the time he's 6 months old. That child grows up and makes poor choices and ends up beating his own children. Nowhere in there did God force any of that to happen. He may have ALLOWED it to happen, but inaction isn't action.

 

Similar to asking "why does bad things happen to good people". We reason the devil messed up this world and now some are lucky and some arent?

so...uumm....where did the Devil mess up the world? From all I understand of the Bible it was man that did all the messing up. The devil may offer us choices that we shouldn't make...but he's not the one doing the choosing.

Interestingly enough I already said:

It's an idea that we as humans created because we don't want to take responsibility for our own actions

the whole "it's the devils fault" thing is the same thing...we don't want to take the blame for our actions.

[Shazz]

Did anyone notice that Hell wasn't made for man...It was made for the Devil and 1/3 of the angels that was booted out of heaven.

 

Hell wasn't designed for man but for satan. But since the seed of sin is here....man is doomed there. Of course I am talking about those who chose sin.

[Nimon]

b: If I say God leaves it up for grabs (random) then few are fortunate (lucky) and many unfortunate (unlucky).

I do not believe that is an accurate portrayal of Arminianism, as you seem to be ignoring God's role in the process. Let me make some comments and respond to a few of yours, and hopefully my view of it will be clear.

 

First of all, and mostly as an aside, I do not believe hell has anything to do with fire. That is a metaphor that the people of Jerusalem easily understood, as they had an example close at hand. I believe that hell is the absence of God. What is fire compared to that? (Incidentally and if I recall correctly, holding a similar position is one of the things that got Billy Graham in trouble with his denomination.)

 

Second and more importantly: I do not believe in predestination. I believe God knows what our choice would be and can act on that knowledge, even to the point of "hardening hearts"; however, just because he knows our choice ahead of time does not mean we do not have a choice. In other words, this isn't a bug in free will, it is a feature of being all knowing. Luck doesn't enter into it.

 

all men might believe there is a God but is it just that some men got good parents or a better minister to help them. One person gets Billy Graham for a dad the other gets howard stern. One gets loved the other gets beaten.

Some raised in Christian homes will be lost, and some will be pulled out of utter chaos and saved. If God is both just and merciful, then I trust him to see to it that all those who would choose to accept his offer of salvation will have the opportunity. Some he reaches through parents or the church, some he reaches through strangers, tracts, etc. And some he reaches directly, as he did with my wife.

 

I find it absurd to say ..."even though the child was beaten from 6 months of age and never loved by his parents, he had the choice to be a good man." NONSENSE! He did not have the choice is my point.

I believe that is a moot point. It doesn't matter if someone is good or not. What matters is accepting the salvation offered and repenting of sin. Every Christian continues sinning. It doesn't matter whether we have a prideful moment or murder a child--all sin is abhorrent in God's eyes.

 

I'm saying under either system of Calv or Arm God seems to be unfair.

God is unfair by our standards. Consider the parable of the workers: no matter how long they worked, the pay was the same.

 

They claim (i havent researched this) that there is no passage that says MEN will eternally be punished.

I don't think it is uncommon to find Christians who believe that the unsaved die a second death instead of suffering eternally. (I am indifferent on the matter, since I think salvation is a matter of giving God his due, rather than "do it or else.")

 

This would solve the tension of freewill and pre-destination cause in the end ALL MEN ARE SAVED.

I don't believe it does. First of all, it seems to rule out free will. However, since I believe you are focusing on the fairness of the approaches, let me ask this: is it fair for God to allow into his presence even those who have openly rejected him?

[gOOters]

Nimon, wow, that was cool. Thanks for your thoughts on the matter...that had the ring of truth to it, imo.

[jane]

also, we are forgetting the potter and his clay. Who are we to judge what God has made? It is His design and right since He has made it. Can't He make things the way He wants? Does the pot say to the potter "why have you made me thus"? No, it is made and is purposed as the potter designed. see Jeremiah 18-19; romans 9-11

 

not to only side with calvanism, but I want you not to miss God's justice in this mindset. He is God. Who can compare? Who has the ability, let alone the right to challenge His ways? He is the Beginning and the End. Who is like Him? We have so little understanding of His power, love and grace. see romans 11:33-36

[auggybendoggy]

im going to pick this up in the debate arena since this is more or a discussion with many differences.

 

auggy