Evolution - Helpful Theory, or Distracting Absurdity?

[Unclean]

This is the thread to talk about the Theory of Evolution, spawned from this thread.

 

 

Preacher brought up a few points about evolution that need to be clarified:

 

1. The theory of evolution states we came from monkeys.

This isn't technically accurate - according to the theory, we share a common ancestor. We didn't descend from apes, apes didn't descend from us.

 

2. Chimps only make baby chimps.

Firstly, speciation isn't an overnight thing. It takes many, many generations to even get a new species. With chimps as an example, you're not giving enough time for evolution to happen. It would be like me reading the first word from a sentence and saying "the author won't be able to form a complete sentence".

Secondly, speciation has been observed with fruit flies. Scientists split apart a colony of fruit flies into two, and after many generations (their lifespan is a few weeks), the fruit flies weren't able to mate with eachother. So in other words, we've seen evolution happen.

Thirdly, evolution isn't guaranteed to happen. It requires a driving force (genetic drift, mutation, natural selection, etc).

[dragonfly]

I have always seen this theory as a really desperate attempt to dismiss any higher being being involved in the world. It just seems to me like there are many holes in it, that's really just guess work when you think about it. Maybe my biggest problem with this theory is that although it's a theory, you're considered an idiot if you don't believe it. Obviously micro evolution exists, but I can't find macro evolution anywhere. Man I hope I didnt mix those up

 

I usually try to stay away from this debate actually. I don't really think this theory is helpful except to dismiss spirituality as a good idea to help us cope with life. Not that that's the case with everyone who believes this theory, but you dont have to watch many sci-fi's to see where I get that idea from "Poor people who worship gods... if only they had the science that we do now to understand where we've all come from..."

 

Off the top of my head, here's what I think:

1. God created the world.

2. The world is just over 6000 years old.

3. The world looks MUCH older - God didn't create Adam as a sperm and then unite him with an egg, he was created to be a man already (aged), just like the plants and animals.

4. Therefore, the chicken came before the egg.

 

Feel free to blast my ideas, I don't mind. Please don't be offended if I dont respond though

[Leveller]

Personally I believe in Evolution and big bang theory, I spoke with someone not too long ago who dismissed the dinosaurs as a being created by science to discount the Bible.

 

While I do believe in Evolution and big bang theory, I do have faith in that there was/is a catalyst behind it, hence me having faith in a God but not so much in the Bible's representation of how the World came to be.

 

My faith in God and that my family and I lead "Christian" lives may seem in contradiction to this, but I know in the Bible thread I tried to explain this already.

 

My take on the Bible and creation theory is a little different to more traditional Christian beliefs, in no way do I want to appear to be offering up "the answer", purely my take on it. I guess what it comes down to is that I see the Bible in a few ways, historical documentation, moral teachings AND ancient man's attempt to explain the unknown. The creation falling into the last category.

[dwEEziL]

Evolution v. Creationism is a hot-button no matter who discusses it nor when. For me, this is one of those "semantics" I talked about. I personally believe in Creationism as the Bible depicts it in Genesis (i.e., I believe the Genesis account is a literal, historic account of what happened, not just a "story"). But if you disagree with me, fine. I don't need you to believe in Creationism for me to call you brother. In the grand scheme of things, how we came about being on this planet thousands (or millions) of years ago doesn't matter. What matters is who I am now, what I believe in regarding my day to day relationship with the Lord, and how I act based on that belief.

 

Whether we come from single-celled anaerobic bacteria or sculpted from the hands of God who then breathed life into us is a side issue in compared to my beliefs (although, believing the second options (being brought into existence by the hands of God) is a lot more personal and warming to a soul, imo).

[Unclean]

From what I've seen, the only people that truly oppose the Theory of Evolution are a] young-earth creationists (such as Dark) and b] scientists trying to win a Nobel prize.

 

For everyone else that's not religious, the Theory of Evolution is what helps us in many areas of life... two big ones are agriculture (e.g. foods we eat) and medicine (e.g. antibiotics).

 

And Dark, I'm not gonna blast your ideas - they're your beliefs. There's no way to disprove your beliefs anyway, since anything is plausible if our perceptions are fully dependent on god and miracles.

 

So what is "micro evolution"?

[dragonfly]

What if I'm a young-earth creationist who also wants to win a Nobel prize?

 

Micro = within a species, like Horses for example.

Macro = between species, like from a chimp to a human, or a human to a dark archon. Just the next step into a better species.

 

Just something I don't get is why are there still few-cell organisms around. Why hasn't everything evolved into humans if we're the most recent stage? Oh, and I do love X-Men, in case anyone thought that I didn't. lol

Edited March 14, 2008 by DarkArchon

[Unclean]

If macroevolution is speciation, we've seen that happen in fruit flies already.

 

And scientists are still trying to classify what a DarkArchon is... not quite human, not quite dweeb.

[dragonfly]

If macroevolution is speciation, we've seen that happen in fruit flies already.

 

I'm pretty sure that's all that was worth quoting...

 

Ok, so it happened in fruit flies you say? Any other indications in any fossils or records anywhere in the world ever?

[Unclean]

Yeah, there are a lot of examples of speciation in the fossil record. Horses are a famous example*, but we see examples in tons of other organisms. From what I read, over 99% of the Earth's species are extinct.

 

On a related note, I should clarify that many religious people don't have a problem with evolution with one simple concept:

 

God used evolution as a tool to create life.

 

 

*if that article is too lengthy, just jump right to the Summary.

[Clueless]

Off the top of my head, here's what I think:

1. God created the world.

2. The world is just over 6000 years old.

 

Well, we know the world is MUCH older than 6000 years because we have carbon dated things far older than that.

 

As far as evolution, Unclean hit it right on the head, it was never said that we came from apes or monkeys, but rather a different species altogether that was "ape-like".

 

There are examples of evolution and adaptation among us today, for example...asians have the same eyes that everyone else does, it's the skin above it that adapted over time to protect them from the cold and windy climate, for additional proof of that, I can tell you that my people (hungarians) and asians came from the same group of mongols that travelled south into europe...what later became hungarians migrated to the area they are now, and the rest split and went towards china. And you can clearly see today in modern hungarians that we do not share the same eye features.

 

Another example would be africans, they are no different than any other humans, although racists would tell you different, their skin has adapted over a long period of time to offer protection from the harsh sun, much the same as many middle eastern countries. So whatever species we originated from is obviously very highly adaptable, and I can easily believe the theories because we can see some level of proof still today.

 

And I havent heard about it for some time, but didnt they find remains a few years ago that are similar to both ape and man that they believe to be the missing link? It was like 10,000 years old or something.

[dragonfly]

Clueless - note #3 for carbon dating

 

Oh, and both of your examples are examples of micro evolution, not macro. Like, I've never seen a whale that's started to grow legs, or something like that. It's always inside of a specie, for survival reasons over long periods of time. Like skin colour, etc. Unless you're a chameleon of course.

 

What would amaze me is if African people evolved into plants so that they could utilize more of the sun. That way there would be no food crisis because they're not short on the sun.

Edited March 15, 2008 by DarkArchon

[Unclean]

Clueless - note #3 for carbon dating

Btw, I've been meaning to ask - why would god purposely deceive us?

 

Oh, and both of your examples are examples of micro evolution, not macro. [snip] It's always inside of a specie

See my reference to fruit flies - that's speciation (one species turning into another), or what you call macro evolution. There are quite a few other examples out there too if you're interested. Let me know if you still think there's no such thing as "macro evolution".

 

What would amaze me is if African people evolved into plants so that they could utilize more of the sun. That way there would be no food crisis because they're not short on the sun.

People turning into plants sounds like either A] a miracle, since it goes against all forms of logic or B] my favorite terrible movie - Troll II, where the goblins (there are no trolls in the movie) like to eat people, but they have to turn them into plants first.

[Playaa]

I would like to see some articles on these fruit flies.

See, this is one place where alot of people who say they don't believe in Evolution have a problem. Those fruit flies may not be able to mate anymore with other fruit flies...which scientifically probably means they are a different species...but when one of those sets of fruit flies starts barking...to me that's when they are a different species.

 

I would honestly love to see some clear examples of Macro Evolution because every example I have ever seen is hotly debated by scientists that all know alot more than me. Generally most people only consider the ones they agree with to be the "real" scientists which is why people claim that they are "clear examples".

[Demoner]

I believe in Evolution as a helpful theory in explaining how humans came about for I find it hard to believe that God created everything. I think evolution can be used to help explain/clarify some points that are hard to believe(for myself anyways) that God created everything. I can't say I believe in just evolution because as others of you pointed out it is just a theory but the same goes for me in believing that its all been done by God. Just my 2 cents worth.

[Playaa]

Why do you find it hard to believe that God created everything Demoner? Do you mean physically that he did or do you mean you don't believe in God therefore he couldn't have created everything?

[wayfarer]

Personally I believe in Evolution and big bang theory

 

Do you, or anyone else posting/reading this thread have ANY idea the odds of

these things happening? I know some of you know my views on evolution. I

don't think there is ANY way we could have gotten here without help.

[Leveller]

While I do believe in Evolution and big bang theory, I do have faith in that there was/is a catalyst behind it, hence me having faith in a God but not so much in the Bible's representation of how the World came to be.

 

Wayfarer, not sure you read my post from beginning to end....

[Demoner]

Why do you find it hard to believe that God created everything Demoner? Do you mean physically that he did or do you mean you don't believe in God therefore he couldn't have created everything?

I do believe that there may be a God but not 100% certain to say there is. The belief that God created everything is too far out there for myself to believe. There maybe a God but I don't believe he made everything. My approach is that god may of created life but evolution is how humans came about in a nutshell anyways. A reason for my beliefs this way is because of my strong math and science background and also being raised as a Catholic as child has made me believe more in the science part then the God part (if that makes sense).

Edited March 17, 2008 by Demoner

[w8t4time]

http://www.platetectonics.com/article.asp?a=8&c=9

 

 

http://geo.phys.uit.no/articl/roadto.html

Edited March 17, 2008 by w8t4time

[dragonfly]

...you, ...reading this thread... odd.

I know some... views.

I don't think...

I just read between the lines. Much easier to see what you want to see. jk Wayfarer

 

Unclean: I'm kinda with Playaa on this one. They split fruit flies, but they can't mate or reproduce... Even flies within flies is extremely limited. Chimpanzee to human basically feels like a "they look like us a bit, but we're smarter. Wonder if that's how we started out." I feel bad cause I don't have time to do my own research right now. Classes are almost over!

[wayfarer]

I went back and read your whole post Lev, and I understand your point. I should not have

used your quotation in the manner I did, insinuating a different stand then the one you

are on. But, I will still say, the odds of things getting to this point on their own without

any divine intervention......astronamical, boderline impossible I would say.

 

 

*edit* I think evolution and the big bang theory should be seperate topics.

Edited March 17, 2008 by wayfarer

[shaftiel]

The Great Apes, Chimps, and all of the other hominids are our cousins, not our ancestors. We are similar because we all had, in the distant past, a common ancester. So we did not, in fact, evolve from a Chimp or Ape. I for one find the idea of a supernatural creature that created all life and the Universe around us to be a much more far fetched idea than the proven ability of selective breeding to change the characteristics of a species. Spread that selective breeding over millions of years and the end result will look and act nothing like what you started with. Look at dogs for example, we have only been breeding dogs for a few thousand years, and look at the diversity we have been able to produce through selective breeding. Given another few thousand years and we will see certain breeds that are to far apart geneticaly to produce viable offspring. Evolution is nothing more complicated than selective breeding spread over millions of years, and does not require the believe in the supernatural.

 

 

 

 

Shaftiel

[dragonfly]

Yeah, evolution and big bang are definitely two different topics. I'd say one would deal a lot more with the supernatural than the other (for debating purposes anyway) but I won't give away which one.

[Unclean]

Whoa! Lots of activity in a short time. Cool.

 

Observed examples of speciation (includes fruit flies, plants, and a few others):

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html

 

Barking fruit flies:

This seems a little unreasonable to me, especially since the theory of evolution is a looong process. Also, if fruit fly speciation is "technically" still speciation, then there is your proof for macro evolution. Putting extra conditions on it after proof is found doesn't make any sense to me, nor does providing new definitions for the word "species".

 

Chimps to humans:

Same thing as "apes to humans" - there's no evidence for it, and no scientist claims that it happened. The theory goes "we share a common ancestor", and it's a world of difference (unless your family tree doesn't have any branches, in which case you should ask Uncle Dad about it).

[Unclean]

Evolution thread:

http://www.gamrs.co/forums/in...showtopic=35588