Does this work?

[*BiGBonES**]

Whats up all, long time no see, but I thought I would pop by and ask a question about religion as I often do.

 

I've kind of had this agreement with God, whereby I have told him that I don't think he exists, and that I don't think the concept of religion really works or is a good thing. But just in case he does exist, I'll try and live my life in a good way and not breach any of his fundamental moral values.

 

But the question is: will I get into heaven by doing this? Do I have to have faith in God to get to heaven or is simply living my life in a plausible way enough?

 

At the moment I'm viewing Christian life on earth as a test to get into heaven. if you are good you go, if not you go to hell. I obvously don't want to go to hell, so this is an important question to me. But maybe i'm looking at this from the wrong angle.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, am i a bad person for laughing at people's misfortunes? for example if someone gets splashed by a bus i'll cry with laughter, and recently i actively watch formula 1 racing and snowboarding races in the hope that someone crashes (not dies). Is this a bad thing? i have limits to what misfortunes i laugh at, but my barriers are significantly lower than the general population. does this make me a bad person lol?

[dragonfly]

Those are super good questions to consider!

 

From the Christian's perspective, bad = anything that goes against what God wants. Not that God is sitting there with a huge list of rules for you to follow, just waiting and hoping you will fail so that he can smite you. The Bible says that "all of our good works are like filthy rags" to God (paraphrased, I can give a reference if you wanna look it up), ie, he's not impressed when we try to be "good". So everyone who's bad has to go to hell, because that's what we earn as punishment for our own failures to live up to God's standards.

 

The standard to get into Heaven is not only innocence (lack of "badness"), but it's also righteousness (which I'll just define as being right, or in right standing with God). Righteousness HAS to be earned, but since we're not perfect, it can't be earned by us. That's why Jesus came, so that he could take our place to be punished for the bad things we do. He did it after living a perfect life and being tested to make sure he was perfect, then he died in our place, taking our punishment, and so earned righteousness that we now have access to. So we couldn't earn righteousness, but it was earned for us by Jesus' death in our place.

 

THAT'S what is referred to as the "gospel", or the good news! We couldn't do it, but it was made available to us. We get this righteousness by coming to God and admitting "hey, I can't get there or impress you by being good, and nothing I can do will get me there. Can you help me please, even though I don't deserve it?" And He promises that He will not turn you away if you come to him humbly. And that's what Christianity is all about: grace and mercy. Grace is getting what we dont deserve (righteousness) and mercy is NOT getting what we DO deserve (death/punishment for being bad).

 

Morality, to a Christian, is just a response of having a changed heart from coming to see God clearly and personally. I don't not watch pornography because it's "bad" or because it's harmful to society and destroys relationships... Instead, I don't watch it because it's not honouring to God and I want to live my life as a huge "thank you" to him, putting him first before my own desires. Sometimes it's easier than others, but it happens from a changed heart, not from a list of rules I got when I signed up to be a Christian.

 

I guess the short answer is yeah, you're a bad person. Hey, guess what - I am too. And so is preacher, congregation, mr.Duke, and everyone else on here and in the world who claims to be a Christian. We've all screwed up big time, but God showed us the solution - trust Jesus' work as the ONLY sufficient way to please God and let him sit in the driver's seat of your life (which is, after all, the natural response). The only difference between Christians and non-Christians is that Christians trust that what Jesus did will get them to heaven, and non-Christians are trusting in something else (like being good, praying, helping the poor, donating to church, etc).

 

If you wanna read more about who Jesus is and what he claimed/said etc, I really like the book called "Luke" in the Bible for how it portrays Jesus. I'm actually working my way through it right now, reading a few chapters every day.

 

Wow, ok, this is definitely long enough. I hope it's somewhat clear to you, and if not, just lemme know and I'll try to clarify!

Edited April 24, 2008 by DarkArchon

[dwEEziL]

I didn't read all of DarkArchon's post but I'll read over it tomorrow. The short answer to your question is, based on the teachings of the Bible is, it doesn't matter what you do in this world. Faith in Jesus Christ is the only thing that gets one to heaven. Sin does not send someone to hell. Unbelief in the Jesus Christ and the work he performed on the cross of Calgary is what sends one to hell.

 

Reference: Matt 7:21-23

 

I'll get into this more tomorrow...right now I'm tired.

[Preacher]

Well think of it this way, God provides a special shaped car, lets say a minivan shaped one seater thet is only 3' across by 3' across. The road to heaven is free to travel for anyone but they must be in the right shaped car to get up the road because of the tunnels shaped specifically for it. This example is an analogy based on the fact that God sent His Son Jesus and to get into heaven we must first believe in Jesus, believe that He lived and then chose to die in our place and then finally attempt to pattern your life after His example.

 

Christianity is not easy, but there are only two choices and Heaven sounds much nicer than the alternative. Bargains with God, without the accountability of obeying His commands is like spitting in the wind. The Bible makes reference that all men see that there is a God and not seeking Him out is an act of rebellion in and of itself. Good to see you searching because in this world you just never know when your number is up and we all have to pay the piper. Luckily God provided a free ticket if we just look to Jesus. And just so there is no confusion due to bad preachers and teachers noone gets to heaven, regardless of how they lived or what they did or did not do, unless they have believed in Jesus and accepted the gift God gives through salvation. But noone gets to Heaven without Jesus being their main man

 

The coolest part though is that regardless of what has happened in your past or what you have done with your life up to now, if you simply ask Jesus to forgive your wrong doings and set your heart in the direction of not repeating those things, you can be on your way to heaven as of that moment. The rest I and others can help you with after. Got to buy that bus ticket first, once you're on the bus we'll explain the route

[Unclean]

Hiya Bigbones! Hope you don't mind a non-Christian responding.

 

Your post is a bit contradictory, so I'd imagine you struggle with this idea a lot. Hopefully some questions I pose below will help you:

 

I've kind of had this agreement with God, whereby I have told him that I don't think he exists, and that I don't think the concept of religion really works or is a good thing. But just in case he does exist, I'll try and live my life in a good way and not breach any of his fundamental moral values.

How can you have an agreement with something that doesn't exist? To me, there are only three options:

 

1. God exists.

2. God doesn't exist.

3. There's no way of knowing if God exists until we kick the bucket.

 

It seems like you're agreeing with option 1, but want to agree with option 2. This is one of those cases where you can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

But the question is: will I get into heaven by doing this? Do I have to have faith in God to get to heaven or is simply living my life in a plausible way enough?

Heaven according to whom? From what religions I've studied, you can't get into heaven by merit/deeds alone.

 

At the moment I'm viewing Christian life on earth as a test to get into heaven. if you are good you go, if not you go to hell. I obvously don't want to go to hell, so this is an important question to me. But maybe i'm looking at this from the wrong angle.

So let me ask you this... if the concept of religion doesn't work, and the concept of religion isn't a good thing, why are you using Christianity as a benchmark? Why not Judaism? Islam? Why use religion as a benchmark at all?

 

 

 

Bigbones, to me it seems like you are spiritual, but not religious. Something (or some things) about organized religion seem to bother you. What are they?

[Preacher]

Judaism has only Jesus as a difference (they don't believe He was the Son of God) and Islam is also an offshoot of Judaism (they have completely left the building though) Buddhist closely mirrors doing good to attain spiritual bliss after death. Hindu faith is all over the place on eternity.

 

I am, of course, biased towards the Christian faith, but have studied the major other religions in a general to deep way depending on which you refer to. You always hear about the Bible contradicting itself and having false stuff in it, but no one ever gives exact examples that aren't based on numerology or translative difficulties. The Koran says directly that all those not directly threatening you should be called brothers but then also says you can only find peace in the shadow of the sword and to kill an unbeliever is a righteous act. Buddhism strikes me like more of an observational faith than having any real spiritual content, it basically just says be at one with your environment and you will have peace (duh) but if that were easy we'd all be doing hands across America on a daily basis.

[stutters]

just for those scoring at home, could you also cite the particular denomination you're representing (or speaking from)?

[dwEEziL]

What Preacher and I have stated is not a teaching of a specific denomination but rather general tenets of basic Christian belief. But for the record, my background is Foursquare Gospel (Preacher and I both went to L.I.F.E. Bible College East, a school started by the International Church of the Foursquare Gospel) and I believe Preacher has always been in a non-denominational arena.

[dragonfly]

I've attended Evangelical-free, Pentecostal and Baptist churches depending on where I was living (away for school, etc). There are minor discrepancies between them, but we're all in agreement with the most important parts listed above, especially about salvation by grace through faith.

 

Thinking about starting my own denomination though. I think I'll call it "The Baptistic Triune Covenant of Latter Day Regenerated Saints of Mount Zion" or something like that. The B.T.C.L.D.R.S.M.Z. for short.

Edited April 24, 2008 by DarkArchon

[Leveller]

This reminds me of an extract from a joke I was sent earlier today:

 

"Most of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there is more than one of these religions and

since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all souls go to Hell."

 

If you want the full joke read below (I apologize that this isn't the correct forum for jokes, but it puts the above in context):

 

"Bonus Question: Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or endothermic (absorbs heat)?

 

Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle’s Law

(gas cools when it expands and heats when it is compressed) or some variant.

 

One student, however, wrote the following:

 

First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time.

So we need to know the rate at which souls are moving into Hell and the rate at which they are leaving.

I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave.

Therefore, no souls are leaving. As for how many souls are entering Hell,

let’s look at the different religions that exist in the world today.

Most of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion,

you will go to Hell. Since there is more than one of these religions and

since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all souls go to Hell.

With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially.

Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell because Boyle’s Law states that

in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same,

the volume of Hell has to expand proportionately as souls are added.

This gives two possibilities:

1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell,

then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose.

2. If Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell,

then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over.

So which is it?

If we accept the postulate given to me by Teresa during my Freshman year that,

“It will be a cold day in Hell before I sleep with you,â€Â

and take into account the fact that I slept with her last night,

then number two must be true, and thus I am sure that Hell is exothermic

and has already frozen over. The corollary of this theory is that since Hell has frozen over,

it follows that it is not accepting any more souls and is therefore,

extinct……leaving only Heaven, thereby proving the existence of a divine being which explains why,

last night, Teresa kept shouting “Oh my God.â€Â"

[stutters]

What Preacher and I have stated is not a teaching of a specific denomination but rather general tenets of basic Christian belief.

i'm not sure i agree that there can be a basic christian belief -- wouldn't that invalidate all other denominations? i guess you could say the world was created in seven days, but then some moron would say something like "are those 24 hour days, vague references to time, or just periods of creation" and we start denominating. i digress.

 

it definitely doesn't sound lutheran, which as i understand it, would actually agree with bigbones. while it does require faith (and not acts/works), that faith can be accepted at judgment. to an extreme, under luther's views, hitler, the VT shooter, the columbine killers, all those guys would still have the opportunity to accept christ regardless of the acts committed on earth.

 

the positions here sound more based in catholicism (or other denominations i haven't been exposed to) in that faith is required during this lifetime (as well as works) in order to pass go and collect $heaven. the only exceptions to this are those that do not know god because of geographical boundaries, but the missionaries have pretty much ruled out that exception. sounds like a sweet deal for the true believers of the 2.1 billion christians, but kinda screws the other 4.5 billion that believe in another world religion for, well, eternity.

[dwEEziL]

No, there are some very basic tenets of Christianity that nearly all denominations can agree on. It's the little disagreements that have caused the splits and schisms. For instance, Jesus Christ being the Son of God is a basic tenet. That he died on the cross for the sins of man is a basic tenet. That he rose again and ascended to heaven is a basic tenet. It's the things such like the gifts of the Spirit, transubstantiation, baptism, "once saved/always saved" v. "salvation can be lost", etc. These things that have some meaning and substance, but in the grand scheme of things are not worth religious schisms and wars but which have happened all throughout Christianity's history.

 

Now, what you brought up about "Faith v. Works" has been a century long debate between denominations. I was going to go through and try to find all the references and such but my first google hit found this and after reading it, it explains my pov on it pretty well.

 

http://www.biblebb.com/files/macqa/1301-E-10.htm

[stutters]

http://www.biblebb.com/files/macqa/1301-E-10.htm

those are the type of "but i answered your question" answers that make me bang my head against the wall. works are required for sacraments, and according to catholicism, sacraments are required for salvation. at any rate, this still doesn't get back to BB's issue, which is "do i need faith here in this life to make good with the maker" to which i say no, you don't.

[dragonfly]

Oh, I think I see what you're getting at SJ... I think...

 

Protestants say salvation by grace through faith (Eph 2:8,9), whereas catholicism has many other aspects to it, many of which include an actual doing of something to get salvation to come to you (tithing, sacraments, going to mass, etc). Although faith can be seen as an act of placing trust, it's still the act of realizing there's nothing you CAN do to earn salvation - Jesus did that. That's what we're trusting in. So yeah, Hitler, the VT shooter and everyone else who is "worse than the rest of us" has a chance at salvation if they'd accepted God's grace. I mean, we know (for the most part) what state they died in, so I'm fairly confident they are not in Heaven based on the fruit their lives bore. Grace IS that preposterous though, and works become the obvious result of grace's work ("he who has been forgiven much loves much, but he who has been forgiven little loves little")

 

Ok, I'm sorry I went so off-topic. I don't want to start a debate in BB's thread I was just trying to explain what all the denominations have in common, sj. EDIT: I doubt there are actually 2.1 billion christians (Matt 7:13, 14) which means it's even worse than you think eternity-wise for the world.

 

Back on topic, dark!!!

 

"Do I need faith here in this life to make good with the maker" - faith will never save you, but without faith you can't get grace, which is what saves you. So yeah, it requires faith, but it's bigger than just faith.

[Preacher]

Faith, in Jesus, alone gets you into heaven but Faith is more than just belief. You can believe in something and not have it change you at all. But when you put your faith in something, you require of yourself more. My old Bible College professor, Mr. Schwiebert, said to me Salvation comes from faith alone, but faith is never alone. The Bible states that Faith without works is dead.

 

Think of it as a difference between hanging out with some people at work vs. a night out with the wife. You may do or say stuff completely different in these situations because the work acquaintances don't determine whether or not you sleep on the couch. Belief is like the friends, it makes little or no difference to your future whether you fart, crack a joke or act like a punk. On the other hand if you embarrass the wife, make a crack about her weight or tick her off it could be the first of many bad evenings.

 

If that was as clear as mud here is the translation: belief is fine and dandy but faith is an all consuming life direction changer. My faith requires of me to help others, for instance, where my belief may be that the lazy bum should go get a job. Jesus didn't require me to be the best candidate for Christianity prior to becoming a Christian, but now that I am one I have the self imposed need to follow the Example that Jesus gave us in meeting the needs of those around Him for no reason other than that He loved them.

[MrDuke]

I grew up Methodist and I rebeled heavily against it in my early years. It is structured and that alone is what gnawed at me. The minister HAD to wear this, the congregation HAD to reply in this manner, weddings HAD to go a certain way, etc. It seemed the church was losing its focus and was worried about its protocol (the rules made by man) more than focusing on the teachings of Jesus and the Bible.

 

IMO, that's what makes each denomination different. The core focus is the same (Christianity), but the manner in which you worship is different.

 

Kel and I now attend a non-denominational church for that exact reason; there is no man-made authority instructing us as to what the protocol for worship is. It allows us to worship as we interpret the teachings of Jesus, not as the church interprets and instructs.

 

I have nothing against Baptists, Lutherans, etc., but my Methodist upbringing really makes me appreciate a non-denom church.

 

As to the original post, we all sin. The key is- are you repentant? Do you try to change your behavior? Did you try to help the person that got wet after laughing about it?

 

Doing good deeds, does that get you into heaven? That depends on the religion. If you are Christian you do good deeds because you feel good about the relationship you have with Christ. It's not because you have to do good deeds, it's because you want to. I don't really know the answer for other religions.

 

Luke is a great place to start. So is John.

 

Your gut is telling you something, don't ignore it. Keep asking and start reading.

[stutters]

So is John. (a great place to start)

 

i win!

[dragonfly]

So is John. (a great place to start)

 

i win!

 

Have a cookie. My name is the same in Hebrew as Jesus' though, so I win!

[stutters]

Have a cookie. My name is the same in Hebrew as Jesus' though, so I win!

if only youtube weren't so strict on that whole dmca thing. there's a PERFECT jesus / family guy video followup to your reply, but i guess i do infact lose.

[dragonfly]

Have a cookie. My name is the same in Hebrew as Jesus' though, so I win!

if only youtube weren't so strict on that whole dmca thing. there's a PERFECT jesus / family guy video followup to your reply, but i guess i do infact lose.

 

<3

[dwEEziL]

http://www.biblebb.com/files/macqa/1301-E-10.htm

those are the type of "but i answered your question" answers that make me bang my head against the wall. works are required for sacraments, and according to catholicism, sacraments are required for salvation. at any rate, this still doesn't get back to BB's issue, which is "do i need faith here in this life to make good with the maker" to which i say no, you don't.

 

Can you elaborate on the "headbanging" answers? As for different denominations seeming to require more for salvation then grace through faith...lots of them get their own little ideas about what's more important than another, but if they stuck strictly to the Bible, they wouldn't say it's a requirement. Take communion for example. Jesus says, "This do in remembrance of me"...it never says "This do or you can't get to heaven". Take baptism/christening. First, I don't recall anywhere in the Bible (I could have missed it) that talks about christening. Second, baptism is not a requirement for salvation either. Baptism is merely an outward expression of an inward change. You've been reborn in your heart so you choose to show this to others in the congregation by being baptized, being dunked under water to symbolize a baby in his/her mother's womb then rising again as a new creation in Christ.

 

Here's another couple biblical references that show that the only thing required for salvation is faith and the second one doesn't even say she expressed it verbally. But both are confirmed by Jesus' words.

 

Jesus and the thief at the crucifixion

 

Woman anoints Jesus' feet

[stutters]

Can you elaborate on the "headbanging" answers?

yes.

[dwEEziL]

Punk

 

/me whispers something to Jesus, Jesus looks over to sj, then promptly crosses something off in the Lamb's Book of Life

[MrDuke]

For that impertinent comment, it'll snow in Minnesota this week.

 

<waves arms in a mage-like manner>

[stutters]

miraculously, an inch of snow is in the forecast for the metro area. there's a strong probability of beerz in the next hour, too. both are true stories.