NOFX July 27, 2009 Share NOFX Member July 27, 2009 So I never hear anyone claiming to be a Deist. If you were to tell someone you were a deist, do you think they would know what your talking about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Preacher July 27, 2009 Share Preacher Member July 27, 2009 (edited) Most likely not. The Deist movement is basically the idea that there is a God but there is no accountability to said God. Basically they observe the universe as created by God since it is too complex and ordered to be random chance. Many of the new movement of intelligent design crowd claim to be deist. This is not just a western trend either, there are many in the Islamic and Jewish areas of the world that claim similar belief systems (when free to do so). It's basically faith without organized religion so basically a weak belief system waiting to be swayed in either direction. Edited July 27, 2009 by Preacher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaftiel July 28, 2009 Share shaftiel Member July 28, 2009 Any one who is actually a Deist could never be for Creationism... or as they like to say 'Intelligent Design'. Deists believe that while there is a God who created the Universe, we are an insignificant part of the design. God created the laws that govern the world and everything we see, but has no real interest in our world or lives. Evolution fits in to that very nicely as simply a process that God created, that happened to end up with us. What the Creationists are saying is that we are important, so important to God in fact, that he designed us himself. That thought simply doesn't fit the mold of a Deist. As for Deists being a 'weak belief system waiting to be swayed in either direction', well that's just silly. Deists put responsibility for ones actions on a much higher level than those of other religions who can simply ask for forgiveness if they transgress. A weak belief system is one that has no consequences for ones actions. Christianity is a great example of this. It preaches that Jesus loves you, and can forgive any wrong, you just have to ask him and accept him into your life. What are the boundaries? Could a man kill a child and still be forgiven? How about 10 children? 20? When would it be to much, and simply unforgivable? At what point would someone be refused entry into heaven? How heinous does one actions have to be before Jesus would turn his back on a believer? Christianity preaches that no matter how many good works you do, if you do it in the name of a different god, you are going to be denied access to Heaven, and be cast into Hell. But if you are a believer, at what point would your past actions be simply to much for Jesus to forgive and be refused access to Heaven? I'm not baiting, I just want to know peoples opinion on this. But back on topic, Intelligent Design is not Deism, and yes there are still Deists around. Shaftiel Deist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Preacher July 28, 2009 Share Preacher Member July 28, 2009 Well you obviously have never been exposed to serious Christianity. The forgiveness is only the first part. The word is to "REPENT" not "ask for forgiveness" to repent is actually derived from a nautical term that means to stop turn around and go in the opposite direction. So when you repent you are saying that you are giving up your old ways and going in a different direction with your life. It is "easy" as far as explaining it, but the reality of it is not. It takes a very strong person to set aside the desires of the mind and body and choose to live in a way that attempts to emulate Jesus Christ. The whole judgmental part is what bothers you, the problem is that real Christians will admit that they aren't better than anyone else, they just are trying to be better than they were. Mostly deism is dead in today's world, but there are still many that after they state their beliefs, are in line with the deist system. And there are many people, especially scientists that come from all sorts of political and national origins that claim that intelligent design is a very real possibility without claiming creationist views or believing in and kind of organized religion. The massive propaganda machine that says all ID people are creationist, christian, republican is almost as insane as the idea that life, the universe and everything is all random chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaftiel July 28, 2009 Share shaftiel Member July 28, 2009 Not to get into a totally different discussion that has been beat to death in other threads, Intelligent design is creationism. Its very basic and fundamental tenet is that a supernatural being created the world. That is creationism, pure and simple. On the surface that might sound like Deism, but its not for one simple reason. Deists accept and embrace science fact and reason, and reject superstitious and supernatural explanations for the Universe. Yes, God created the Universe, but its like a giant clock. He is not making the second hand move or using his divine will to cause the hour hand to move around the clock face. Everything moves and reacts as prescribed by the physical laws that He created. It is those laws, the Law of Gravity, the speed of light, all the physical laws of the Universe that moved and interacted to create the world we see around us. God didn't personally mold the world and forge us in his image, we came about from random events that acted according to the laws God created. That is the difference between a Deist and a Creationist. We both agree we were created by God, just the process of that creation is different. Deists pursue the scientific explanations, while intelligent design/creationists pursue the supernatural explanation. As close as they seem to be, they are truly worlds apart. As for your response regarding the act of repenting. I agree for the most part with what you said. There is a difference between simply asking for forgiveness and truly repenting. However I do not think you answered the core question. How much is to much to forgive? Is there a limit to the evil someone can commit and still make it to heaven? That seems to be a hard question, because Christianity teaches that Gods love for us is unending and has no boundaries. So the answer would have to be that if you truly repent, then no evil is too great to overwhelm Gods love for you. So in my original question, someone who murdered 20 children, if he truly repented and asked for forgiveness, would be accepted into heaven. But what if he repented on his deathbed, or week before he died, a month? Could said murderer kill children his whole life, then a year before he died repent and ask forgiveness and receive it? See, that's an issue I have with Christianity, its this 'get out of hell free' clause that gets me. There is no accountability for ones actions, no act of evil is to heinous to forgive. This guy gos to heaven, while people of other faiths who have tirelessly worked for the betterment of mankind get sent to hell simply because they prayed to the wrong guy. It seems so picayune and so unlike a God who's love has no boundaries. Shaftiel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jibbajabba July 28, 2009 Share Jibbajabba Member July 28, 2009 Hopeful agnostic .....because none of us knows for certain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Preacher July 28, 2009 Share Preacher Member July 28, 2009 Once again quoting the party line on ID. The truth is that more and more scientists are finding that there is no randomness in nature. It's all ordered. The ID scientists aren't quoting scripture or talking about "God" they also are not saying that God created anything. They are saying that something or someone set things in motion. Some even lean towards aliens or some kind of "force". Some are leaning towards creationist ideas but to say ID is creationism is like saying all Democrats are evil or all republicans are rich older white men. Stereotypes are ridiculous and propagating the idea that ID scientists are christian republicans promoting creationism in the guise of science is just propaganda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaftiel July 28, 2009 Share shaftiel Member July 28, 2009 Once again quoting the party line on ID. The truth is that more and more scientists are finding that there is no randomness in nature. It's all ordered. The ID scientists aren't quoting scripture or talking about "God" they also are not saying that God created anything. They are saying that something or someone set things in motion. Some even lean towards aliens or some kind of "force". Some are leaning towards creationist ideas but to say ID is creationism is like saying all Democrats are evil or all republicans are rich older white men. Stereotypes are ridiculous and propagating the idea that ID scientists are christian republicans promoting creationism in the guise of science is just propaganda. I never said that Intelligent Design involved God. I said it involved a supernatural being. There are hundreds of creation myths, thousands even. All of them involve a supernatural force or being creating the world. Intelligent Design is no different. Its an attempt to frame the world within a supernatural context, and as such there are no Intelligent Design scientists. Science is the study of the natural world, anything that is supernatural is outside of the natural world, and is not something science can explain. That is not propaganda, that is simply what science is. To try and claim that Intelligent Design is science is simply ridicules due to Intelligent Design's basic premise that the Earth was created by something other than natural forces. A supernatural force. Its not propaganda, its the basic principles of science. Intelligent Design is not a science, it is another take on a creation myth that's trying to dress itself up as science. Simply put, if it involves supernatural processes, it can not be considered science. End of story. Shaftiel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jibbajabba July 28, 2009 Share Jibbajabba Member July 28, 2009 I find it interesting that several of our founding fathers were deists, such as Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson. It is debatable as to whether George Washington was or not. Of course I suppose it isn't suprising since deism was very popular during that time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaftiel July 28, 2009 Share shaftiel Member July 28, 2009 I find it interesting that several of our founding fathers were deists, such as Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson. It is debatable as to whether George Washington was or not. Of course I suppose it isn't suprising since deism was very popular during that time. Thomas Jefferson actually created a Deist bible by removing all the supernatural events and references from the Bible. Shaftiel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jibbajabba July 28, 2009 Share Jibbajabba Member July 28, 2009 1.) Creationism is the belief that a supreme being made man/earth/everything. 2.) Intelligent design is similar in the belief that something other than the Big Bang started life but not as narrow and can include aliens, other unknown beings/forces etc. 3.) Evolution is not random as a scientific process, but that doesn't mean it was necessarily created by an higher being. 4.) Not advocating one or the other (because I don't know which one is correct) but at this point of our feeble knowledge of the universe, isn't intelligent design just as plausible as the Big Bang Theory. It is built on Einstein's theory of relativity which hasn't been disproved but is probably incomplete as a model. (Keywords are theory) 5.) Everyone don't get so worked up about this topic, we all know Cthulhu is going to rise from the depths of the ocean and devour our world anyway right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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