Roommate Etiquitte

[Unclean]

I just thought I'd throw out a dilemma I'm involved in to see what you guys think. To me, it's pretty cut-and-dry, but it may not be. So I'll try to phrase the facts as neutrally as possible, and you can all play Judge Judy.

 

Just the facts:

1. "Steve" and "Michelle" are living in Michelle's parents house. Her parents have two houses, so Steve and Michelle are staying in the house waiting to be sold and paying bills to help out her parents. The bills include all utilities and taxes. No additional rent.

2. "Janet", Michelle's sister, just got out of an engagement with her now ex-fiance. Financially, she lost everything. She has maybe $400 to her name. This was a few months ago.

3. Janet moved in with her other sister, but found they were incompatible.

4. At the same time that Janet moved in with her sister, she started dating "Dave".

5. Due to the incompatibility in #3, Janet asked to move in with Steve and Michelle. They accepted, and said she could live rent-free for awhile until she gets back on her feet. She's living in the finished basement. They asked for a few common courtesies though:

A] If Janet eats any food, she has to replace it (she has done so)

B] Janet must keep her dog wrangled - no barking, she cleans up after it, etc (only two incidents, otherwise fine)

C] Janet has to clean up after herself (she has done so)

D] Dave can't become the 4th roommate

6. Starting the second night, Dave has spent every night at the house. Janet has never asked Steve and Michelle if it was ok for Dave to stay over. Dave lives with his parents, and they do not approve of Janet spending the night there. Dave leaves through the basement exit each morning without coming upstairs to say anything, and comes over each day without introducing himself to Steve and Michelle.

7. Steve and Michelle do not approve of this, and have voiced their concern to Janet. Michelle and Janet's parents, who own the house, also don't approve of this.

8. Dave continues to spend each night over.

 

So here is the question:

Is it ok for Dave to spend every night over? Why or why not?

 

Hearing your opinions on this would really be helpful.

[bushwack]

Are "Steve" and "Michelle" married?

 

If not, any reason why one daughter could have a live in BF and but the other? Parents playing favorites or just don't like Dave?

[Unclean]

Steve and Michelle are married. Janet's other sister is also married.

 

And everyone thinks Dave is a nice guy.

[akaM2]

Steve and Michelle are married. Janet's other sister is also married.

 

And everyone thinks Dave is a nice guy.

 

Have Steve and Michelle talked to Dave to make him feel welcome so he talks to them?

 

Have Steve and Michelle talked to Janet about Dave staying every day?

[bushwack]

My sister in law stayed with me and Tina for about 6 months a few years ago. Even though Tonya (SIL) is a great gal, after a while it added stress to the household, for me anyway. Family is one thing but I couldn't imagine another guy in the house in the morning while getting ready for work, ect., that wouldn't last long with me.

 

I understand these are tough times though, who knows there may be a couple more in the house before it's over with.

My unemployment is about to run out I may have to make my kids share a room and rent out the other room.

Edited November 18, 2009 by bushwack

[anonymo]

What is the motivation behind Steve and Michelle not wanting Dave to stay over? Are Janet and Dave making excess noise? Do Steve and Michelle feel they are being taken advantage of? Do the parents of Michelle and Janet feel they are being taken advantage of, by Dave? This is not very important in the grand scheme of things, but to me it sounds like someone has an issue with Dave as the fourth roommate, and the reason for this should be highlighted so all parties involved understand the motivation behind the rules (otherwise, they will be broken).

 

Sounds like a foot needs to be put down. If Janet was confronted, why is Dave still spending the night? Most likely because emotions are at play and Steve and Michelle are not strong enough to follow through with their threats. I don't feel it's fair to anyone to have these rules set out and instead of enforcing them, bickering about the whole ordeal to the point where poor Unclean has to get involved.

 

Seems clear. Dave does not sleep over. If Dave sleeps over, Janet gets the boot. If one can not kick Janet out (for whatever reasons) one must accept the fact that Dave is going to be the 4th roommate (can't have your cake and eat it too). Throwing rules in Janet's face that Michelle can't follow through with is not only unfair, but a form of torture in the guise of a generous gesture.

[JackieChan]

Lol, this sounds like one of those stupid questions (not saying this is stupid, mind you) you'd see on a test for an English class or something.

 

If Janet can't abide by the rules, then something has to change. She is pretty much, for lack of a better word, mooching off Steve and Michelle. If this:

Dave leaves through the basement exit each morning without coming upstairs to say anything, and comes over each day without introducing himself to Steve and Michelle.

is happening constantly, and from my understanding is that Dave is constantly spending the night, this would not stand if I were in Steve and Michelle's situation.

 

If Dave at least greeted the other occupants of the house, then it wouldn't be as bad. The way Unclean describes it, it's like a complete stranger is coming over and spending the night, each night. This would make me feel very uncomfortable.

 

My answer, obviously, is no.

 

 

Unclean is Dave.

 

Edited November 18, 2009 by JackieChan

[YoMamma]

1.) If all 4 parties in the matter are "adults," then I'm sure they want to be treated like adults. If not, this may be a legitimate factor to why no one wants Dave over. If adults, confront the issue. Dave and Janet need to have a face to face chat with Steve and Michelle.

 

2.) Rules are set for a reason too. Steve and Michelle need to ask Janet and Dave why they are not following the rules of the household. Is it perhaps because it's not Steve and Michelle's house (technically)?

 

Conclusion: Confront the issue with all four parties present to resolve the dilemma.

[stutters]

imo, the second part of #7 supersedes everything else. the parents own the house, are doing steve and michelle a favor, and the parents should have the only say of who is allowed to make residence at their house. they should be dealing with it, not steve and michelle. if they have made a ruling, it's on michelle and janet to handle it like mature adults.

 

if michelle and janet's parents say dave isn't welcome to stay over night, janet should respect that. if she doesn't, michelle and steve are bearing all the risk by allowing it to happen (assuming the parents have approached janet about it).

[Unclean]

Whoa, I think this is all very helpful stuff. And not quite as clear cut as I thought!

 

@M2 - Steve and Michelle had a confrontation with Janet about it about 2 weeks ago. Steve led the discussion, Michelle flipped her position about 10 minutes into the discussion because Janet got real quiet and offended. Janet kept saying "well, what days can Dave stay over?" Steve said he's not the house overlord, and Janet is an adult. So he suggested 3-4 nights a week tops, but Steve wasn't going to set a schedule for Janet/Dave. Janet also got the impression that Steve hates Dave, despite Steve saying that he likes Dave.

 

@bush - sounds rough! How did things finally end with your SIL?

 

@Mo - great questions. The main issue(s) Michelle and Steve have center around the unknowns for Dave. Janet has made poor decisions in the past with her boyfriends. One racked up about $7000 in debt for her, another was an alcoholic that hit her and cheated on her with a 16 year old. Nobody found out about those until after they broke up. For all M&S know, Dave and Janet could have an ugly breakup, and he could steal a bunch of valuables that Janet doesn't have the means to replace (tv, computer, wii, etc).

 

"Throwing rules in Janet's face that Michelle can't follow through with is not only unfair, but a form of torture in the guise of a generous gesture." - this seems especially poignant. That whole discussion did nothing but make Janet feel worse for having Dave over, and didn't resolve anything.

 

Kicking Janet out isn't really an option - the only place she'd have left to go is living with her parents. They live an hour away from her job, and Janet works part time cutting hair, so all of her money would go to gas.

 

@JC - I tried to phrase it like a stupid English problem. It is a real problem though, and you guys have been able to help out immensely so far. It's interesting that you brought up the mooching part - it is a bit like a free hotel for Janet/Dave. And Michelle/Janet's parents have been wary in the past of Janet "taking advantage of people".

 

 

 

/edit - 2 more responses were posted as I was replying above.

 

@YM - what would be the reason to have Dave present at the discussion?

 

@SJ - I don't think anyone has straight-up asked the parents what their final decision is. That might save face for Michelle, who is clearly looking to be the peacemaker before the 'rule enforcer'. I don't think Steve wants to set rules either.

[stutters]

alright, so deviating from the "let the homowners (hi anony) be the overloards" path...

 

what objection does steve and michelle have to dave staying over? is dave rude, or offensive, or inconsiderate? i could absolutely rationalize wanting to protect personal space, but if steve and michelle are living rent free, then that doesn't seem to be very solid ground to stand on. if michelle and janet's parents haven't been asked straight up, then there's got to be some other driving force (for steve and michelle) that wasn't shared in the breakdown above. what is it? what's the objection to having him stay there (again, where steve and michelle are staying rent free)?

 

as an outsider with limited knowledge about the family dynamics, it does seem peculiar that michelle wouldn't be more supportive of janet's decisions, even if they're not decisions michelle would make on her own. if janet just got out of a serious committed relationship (with a fiance), she needs support. speaking from personal experience, trust me.

[YoMamma]

@YM - what would be the reason to have Dave present at the discussion?

 

Because Dave can potentially will be living with everyone else. Wouldn't Steve and Michelle want to know Dave's situation and feelings in the matter if he is spending time under the same roof? I understand that Dave does not have a "final say" in any matter, but his point of view might help "paint the picture" better in this situation.

[Unclean]

alright, so deviating from the "let the homowners (hi anony) be the overloards" path...

 

what objection does steve and michelle have to dave staying over? is dave rude, or offensive, or inconsiderate? i could absolutely rationalize wanting to protect personal space, but if steve and michelle are living rent free, then that doesn't seem to be very solid ground to stand on. if michelle and janet's parents haven't been asked straight up, then there's got to be some other driving force (for steve and michelle) that wasn't shared in the breakdown above. what is it? what's the objection to having him stay there (again, where steve and michelle are staying rent free)?

Well, Steve/Michelle are paying property taxes - about $7500/yr I think. And they pay all utilities.

 

Dave isn't rude, offensive or inconsiderate - he gives the opposite impression actually. Steve/Michelle just don't know Dave very well at all, so like Jackie was saying, it's like a stranger living in the house every night. Then add Janet's choice in prior men - one leaving her in debt, another as a functioning alcoholic - there is a much higher risk that there is a hidden issue with Dave too, and this may affect Steve/Michelle somehow.

 

 

as an outsider with limited knowledge about the family dynamics, it does seem peculiar that michelle wouldn't be more supportive of janet's decisions, even if they're not decisions michelle would make on her own. if janet just got out of a serious committed relationship (with a fiance), she needs support. speaking from personal experience, trust me.

It was a 4 year relationship that she just got out of - and she was engaged for 2 years, and they lived together for almost the entire relationship. So it must be hard. You went through one of those too? You should make a new thread to discuss, if you feel comfortable doing so.

[stutters]

so michelle and/or steve don't trust janet. it doesn't sound like the issue is with dave, but whether or not janet should even be there.

 

i'm playing an extreme devil's advocate, but play out the scenario of confronting janet about dave not being welcome (even if it's not welcome 2-3-4 days). how do you think that will impact the relationship and home environment between michelle, steve and janet, and what kind of strain could that put on michelle and steve?

 

i'm not jealous of the predicament. good luck.

[Clueless]

My 2 cents...Steve and Michele are paying the bills and providing the upkeep to the house, and have been entrusted to keep it all safe and sound, then the burden and responsibility fall to them, and they have made rules that Janet is clearly not following, and Dave clearly has no respect for.

 

I think it's rude for a family member to impose on Steve/Michele and put them in the awkward position in the first place, but since you can't very well enforce penalties on morality, I say stand true to the rules you set up front, and if they are to be changed to better suit Janet, then she should step forward and properly ask for the permission, and even step up to the plate with extra help around the place to show she can be a team player. And Dave definitely needs to get to know the people he is staying with, I wouldn't be comfortable at all with my family in a house with a stranger that I know nothing about, especially these days...he could be a crazy dude one push away from going all stab happy or something...ya never know.

[mookie]

Hi I'm Steve. I'd let Dave stay over zero nights per week. I don't know Dave, and I don't want Dave in my house while I'm asleep. Maybe, after I get to know Dave, he can stay and watch Conan before he scurries off to his parents' house, and if we go out of town maybe Dave can come by and housesit with Janet. If Michelle's parents want to contradict me, it's up to them since it is their house. I don't care what Dave's parents think about it either way. If Janet doesn't like it, she can try her luck having sleepovers at her parents' house.

 

The rhetorical question I'd have in my mind (but wouldn't ask of Janet) is this:

 

How is it that Janet's old enough to (1) own a dog and (2) have been engaged for two years, but willing to date a guy who lives with his parents?

Edited November 18, 2009 by mookie

[Clueless]

How is it that Janet's old enough to (1) own a dog and (2) have been engaged for two years, but willing to date a guy who lives with his parents?

 

Maybe he has big....feet

[discom]

Mookie tellin' it like it is

[dragonfly]

so michelle and/or steve don't trust janet. it doesn't sound like the issue is with dave, but whether or not janet should even be there.

 

I wont have time to look back here, but I'll just say a couple of things:

 

It sounds like steve/michelle DID trust Janet, even if they no longer do. They HAVE been supportive -- they let her move in and she only pays for food and cleans up after her dog. Seems like they've shown a lot of support and mercy given the situation.

 

the problem has come up and gone on for a while now. They've been supporting her and are still doing so.

 

i'm playing an extreme devil's advocate, but play out the scenario of confronting janet about dave not being welcome (even if it's not welcome 2-3-4 days). how do you think that will impact the relationship and home environment between michelle, steve and janet, and what kind of strain could that put on michelle and steve?

 

I really like these questions actually, because people/relationships are extremely important, and this is the heart of the issue. M/S don't want to upset Janet -- I think they DO want to support her. I'm making the assumption that their rules for her are to help the relationship between M and S, and between M/S and Janet. What's happening is the opposite of all of that, because Janet, however much she is hurting, is looking for happiness in the wrong place or at least the wrong way: at the expense (relationship wise) of those who are helping her.

 

What can be done? I find it easy to let things go, but harder to confront out of love. I think that needs to happen, but in the right way... very very carefully! Janet may hate them for it, but if they had any relationship to begin with, she'll eventually see that M/S wanted what's best for her and them. And even if she doesn't ever come around, M/S can sleep at night knowing they did everything they could to help her with sincerity.

 

(sorry for quoting you sj. I just liked what you had to say and wanted to respond -- wasn't picking on you!

[TheFirstMonk]

I just thought I'd throw out a dilemma I'm involved in to see what you guys think. To me, it's pretty cut-and-dry, but it may not be. So I'll try to phrase the facts as neutrally as possible, and you can all play Judge Judy.

 

Just the facts:

5. Due to the incompatibility in #3, Janet asked to move in with Steve and Michelle. They accepted, and said she could live rent-free for awhile until she gets back on her feet. She's living in the finished basement. They asked for a few common courtesies though:

A] If Janet eats any food, she has to replace it (she has done so)

B] Janet must keep her dog wrangled - no barking, she cleans up after it, etc (only two incidents, otherwise fine)

C] Janet has to clean up after herself (she has done so)

D] Dave can't become the 4th roommate

6. Starting the second night, Dave has spent every night at the house. Janet has never asked Steve and Michelle if it was ok for Dave to stay over. Dave lives with his parents, and they do not approve of Janet spending the night there. Dave leaves through the basement exit each morning without coming upstairs to say anything, and comes over each day without introducing himself to Steve and Michelle.

7. Steve and Michelle do not approve of this, and have voiced their concern to Janet. Michelle and Janet's parents, who own the house, also don't approve of this.

8. Dave continues to spend each night over.

 

So here is the question:

Is it ok for Dave to spend every night over? Why or why not?

 

Is Dave acting like a fourth roommate? If he's eating, sleeping, using facilities in the house on a regular basis with great frequency, and if he spends an inordinate amount of time at Steve and Michelle's more than he does at his parents' house and stays there in such a way that it is like a second home to him, then that should be taken into consideration. For example, if he goes to Steve and Michelle's house after work (assuming he has a job) and stays there instead of going to his parents', uses their showers/ bathrooms, eats food from their fridge, etc., then those are all things that may be just details but are still important.

 

Depending on the amount of patience that Steve and Michelle have, some of the things listed above may or may not matter to them as much as getting to know Dave first, which a lot of people have already mentioned. Steve and Michelle say he doesn't seem rude, inconsiderate, or offensive, yet they also say they don't know much about him, so Dave is basically unknown; he may or may not be those things according to their knowledge.

 

This problem seems to have been compounded by a lack of formality, however unintentional it may be. Janet did not ask for permission, and Dave has not introduced himself yet. In Janet's defense, it sounds as if she's been through a lot in terms of relationships, so maybe she neglected to ask out of oversight and not as a way to take advantage of her sister's hospitality. Dave may or may not be a decent person, so I would approach him evenhandedly without giving him undue credit or notoriety to his reputation at this point. If he's a decent person, he might be a shy or socially awkward guy that lives with his parents. If he's not a decent person, he might be an irresponsible man-child that lives with his parents. Or a mixture of both scenarios. If he keeps avoiding initiating a conversation, it will be difficult to tell obviously.

 

There are possible solutions to consider, though I do not guarantee any of these will work. A better outcome might occur if you use all three together to some degree.

 

A. Steve and Michelle may attempt to get to know Dave better by inviting him and Janet to lunch/ dinner or a similar social event. The possible downsides of this option is that the meal will cost money and time, and if Dave still does not talk much, the conversation will be walled by long awkward silences with nothing still known about him. The possible upside is that if Dave does open up more and seems nice, Steve and Michelle might feel more comfortable with his presence. If he is crass, rude, stupid or has similar negative characteristics, then the meal is still a success because he will have revealed a part of himself previously hidden. If the latter were to occur (he shows an ugly side), Janet will be present and will be hard pressed to defend his character, either to herself or to Steve and Michelle.

 

B. Offer Janet increased emotional support, more than usual, like stutters said. Janet is likely emotionally fragile from the disappointing relationships in her life. Instability creates fear and thoughts of inadequacy. She may like Dave or think she likes Dave to an extent that she perceives being with him as a way of being happy in the way many people do their own relationships. If she is given enough or more love from a different source, such as other family and friends, two things may occur. If she grows more confident and feels supported by others, she may feel like she deserves better and dump Dave if he is no longer the primary or sufficient source; she might now see flaws in him or recognize new ones she overlooked while she was in "love." If she still sticks with him but is happy from the love she feels from others, perhaps Dave genuinely pleases her. Maybe.

 

C. When Janet gets back on her feet financially, and if Dave does not have a steady job or a nominal paycheck or is unable to move in to a place with Janet when she inevitably leaves her sister's house, conflict may ensue and lead to a breakup. In this case, no one really has to do anything, but this process will take an undetermined amount of time. (It would be best to figure out if Dave is a potentially dangerous guy beforehand, so you can prepare for the worst when the two split. A form of Option A.) On the other hand, she might become the primary earner in their relationship, but the previous relationship where she had $7000 appropriated from her may have taught her to be more cautious concerning matters of money.

 

D. Do what others have suggested and clarify and enforce a set of rules. Ultimatums can be ugly but necessary depending on conditions.

 

None of these options is an absolute solution or an infallible litmus test for Dave's personality; if he is a psychopath (which is a very, very, very slim but still possible chance), then I have met my match and can't really offer any useful advice to you. There's always the possibility that he's an average, nice guy too. Who knows?

 

Of course, you could always ignore my post.

[anonymo]

Unclean...did....did you just turn GC into The View?

[boiler]

Unclean...did....did you just turn GC into The View?

.... Does that make it wrong that I am riveted by this?

 

 

 

(more constructive boiler thoughts to come)

[anonymo]

Unclean...did....did you just turn GC into The View?

.... Does that make it wrong that I am riveted by this?

 

 

No but it confirms our suspicions.

[Unclean]

Unclean...did....did you just turn GC into The View?

Answers to this and more after the break.

 

SELL YOUR GOLD HERE! DID YOU KNOW THAT GOLD PRICES ARE AT AN ALL TIME HIGH? SELL YOUR GOLD TO US! GOLD!

 

...GOOOLD!

 

And we're back. Before the break, Dragon brought up some potential trust issues between Michelle/Steve and Janet, and the strain Janet's decisions are putting on Michelle and Steve's relationship.

 

There have also been a few progressions in this quandry - Michelle is mostly concerned with how Janet is diving "headfirst" into this relationship with Dave. Michelle thinks Steve is too, but going overboard as a "fatherly figure". Steve isn't - if Janet and Dave got their own place together, he'd feel way more comfortable than the current situation.

[bushwack]

@bush - sounds rough! How did things finally end with your SIL?

She was able to buy a house and move out, it all worked out good. We owed here her for all the baby sitting she did while the kids were young away.