School Shootings

[amertrash]

Most religion based wars were wars for political, monetary or personal gains for those that began them. They then told the people that they were doing it for g(G)od. The crusades often touted as a striving to force Christianity upon others was simply King vs King to control Gold and other precious commodities.

 

Proof for you and me may differ greatly. I have experienced my God on many occasions in different ways but my experience may be convincing only to myself.

 

Didn't ask for proof, asked for tangible evidence as to why one would choose to believe in what you do. You do have the relics of Jesus, but it's not like those are scientific. Calcata even had an annual parade with the "Holy Prepuce" until the 80s when someone stole it, seems a bit wacky to me. But skipping over it and going back to question in another thread that you didn't answer. Do you believe only Christians can go to Heaven and everyone else is going to Hell? Is Gandhi in hell? Will Bill Gates and Warren Buffet go to hell after they die, as they donate billions of dollars to charity but aren't Christians? How about people that live their entire life as good people but we're raised as Taoist, Hindu, Buddhist? Or the hundreds of Tibetans in the last few years that have burned themselves alive in peaceful protest to protect their religion and culture?

[JackieChan]

 

 

 

Quote: Basically, FOX News used the Facebook profile of a dude who has the same name as the killer, and showed it in public. They displayed the things he had on his 'likes' page, which includes Mass Effect.

 

Logic....

 

Update: Also, Fox News and probably others newspaper/broadcast companies put out the list of victims with pictures, who died.

There is a word to describe those people. Nutjobs.

[Preacher]

Most religion based wars were wars for political, monetary or personal gains for those that began them. They then told the people that they were doing it for g(G)od. The crusades often touted as a striving to force Christianity upon others was simply King vs King to control Gold and other precious commodities.

 

Proof for you and me may differ greatly. I have experienced my God on many occasions in different ways but my experience may be convincing only to myself.

 

Didn't ask for proof, asked for tangible evidence as to why one would choose to believe in what you do. You do have the relics of Jesus, but it's not like those are scientific. Calcata even had an annual parade with the "Holy Prepuce" until the 80s when someone stole it, seems a bit wacky to me. But skipping over it and going back to question in another thread that you didn't answer. Do you believe only Christians can go to Heaven and everyone else is going to Hell? Is Gandhi in hell? Will Bill Gates and Warren Buffet go to hell after they die, as they donate billions of dollars to charity but aren't Christians? How about people that live their entire life as good people but we're raised as Taoist, Hindu, Buddhist? Or the hundreds of Tibetans in the last few years that have burned themselves alive in peaceful protest to protect their religion and culture?

 

Here is what Christians believe. God is perfect and God is Just. To enter Heaven God requires us to also be perfect, because only through perfection can we be in His presence. In the years before Christ, God allowed for animal sacrifice for the atonement (payment) for sins (anything that violates the perfect nature of God). This made for ritualistic lifestyles that were difficult if not even impossible to live up to. God, wishing that no one would die and have to be separated from Him for all eternity, sent His son Jesus to die on the cross and later through the power of the Spirit of God was raised from the dead. Jesus then took His place in Heaven. Now the death chosen was the most horrific at the time and was stretched out and awful. He chose to do it anyway, even though He was without sin Himself. He did it to stand in our place for the punishment we were deserving of because we, of our own free will, did stuff that was sin (again anything done in selfishness that separates us from perfection). See someone had to pay the bill, so to speak, and Jesus through God's plan and the power of God's Spirit did just that. God did it this way because His nature demands justice and justice says that the act of any sin is punishable by death.

 

To get to Heaven you do not need to live completely sin free, because this is just beyond the grasp of our nature, but we must accept that Jesus paid our way. Only through Jesus can we get to the Father. Therefore yes I think that any person who does not accept that gift of God does in fact miss the boat to Heaven. Christianity does not discriminate against people based on race, social stature, national origin or past actions. It is truly the most accepting of all religions, because it allows for a fresh start on day one that you accept God's gift of Salvation. Nothing we do, no matter how good, balances the scales of justice. But the good news is that God doesn't require us to balance the scales but provided a way for it to be done for you.

 

Tangible proof, me. I was a bad guy at one point in my life, heading to darker places and God spoke to my heart. I gave my life to Him and turned myself into a punching bag for you. I try to live in a way that honors God, but I mess up. I assume that you will now set out to tear down the things I have said. You will say things like Why would a loving God send people to Hell. The answer is that He doesn't, we choose that path by rejecting the one He set out for us. I may not have all the answers to your criticisms, complaints and such but I know the truth because I live in its light. Truth sounds like foolishness until you know it. And foolishness can sound very much like truth if you do not.

Edited December 17, 2012 by Preacher

[TheDude]

See someone had to pay the bill

 

This is something i don't understand. Why did someone have to pay the bill? Why would people all over the world be held accountable for each other's sins, and furthermore, why would Jesus have to be held accountable for our sins?

 

What was the sanction if he hadn't?

[Kuma]

[ZeroDamage]

This is a spirituality and religion forum. Not a forum for you Atheists to come in here in outrage that people actually believe in something. There are plenty of other places on the internet for that.

[Kuma]

This is a spirituality and religion forum. Not a forum for you Atheists to come in here in outrage that people actually believe in something. There are plenty of other places on the internet for that.

 

Good for them and I don't mind. But when some people (SOME) push the limits too far, of course people will oppose it. Just for example, if I would be insolent, I could claimed that Preacher, between the lines, is saying if you're none religious person, then there is no hope for you or you have been raised by bad parenting.

[TheDude]

This is a spirituality and religion forum. Not a forum for you Atheists to come in here in outrage that people actually believe in something. There are plenty of other places on the internet for that.

 

Don't know if this is aimed at just Kuma's post, or at mine and other atheists here too, but i want to stress that i believe in something too, it just happens to be something different (spirituality).

 

Also i only just now realized this in the religion forums and not the political asylum, i think our reactions come from the fact that in his opening post, Preacher pretty much declared war on atheism. He may not have meant to, but if you read it, that is essentially what he did.

 

If this topic was about prayer or asking God for guidance or help, none of us atheists would have meddled. That's what we mean when we say we respect religion.

[ZeroDamage]

This is a spirituality and religion forum. Not a forum for you Atheists to come in here in outrage that people actually believe in something. There are plenty of other places on the internet for that.

 

Good for them and I don't mind. But when some people (SOME) push the limits too far, of course people will oppose it. Just for example, if I would be insolent, I could claimed that Preacher, between the lines, is saying if you're none religious person, then there is no hope for you or you have been raised by bad parenting.

 

Preacher did not say that. He is in a way that derives from his faith stating that our culture is to blame for these shootings. He isn't attacking anyone here and he did not come here to argue with the all-knowing atheists who have no tolerance for those that do believe in God. If you want a forum for that, ask FK and I am sure he will create a forum just for atheism.

[ZeroDamage]

This is a spirituality and religion forum. Not a forum for you Atheists to come in here in outrage that people actually believe in something. There are plenty of other places on the internet for that.

 

Don't know if this is aimed at just Kuma's post, or at mine and other atheists here too, but i want to stress that i believe in something too, it just happens to be something different (spirituality).

 

Also i only just now realized this in the religion forums and not the political asylum, i think our reactions come from the fact that in his opening post, Preacher pretty much declared war on atheism. He may not have meant to, but if you read it, that is essentially what he did.

 

If this topic was about prayer or asking God for guidance or help, none of us atheists would have meddled. That's what we mean when we say we respect religion.

 

Like I posted above, Preacher and others of Faith are not in these spirituality and religion forums to argue and debate whether God or other religious deities exist or not. If you want a forum for that, ask for an atheism forum. Challenging Preacher on his beliefs and to prove that God exists is ignorant and not the point of this thread.

 

And this isn't targeted at any specific person but in general.

[Kuma]

This is a spirituality and religion forum. Not a forum for you Atheists to come in here in outrage that people actually believe in something. There are plenty of other places on the internet for that.

 

Good for them and I don't mind. But when some people (SOME) push the limits too far, of course people will oppose it. Just for example, if I would be insolent, I could claimed that Preacher, between the lines, is saying if you're none religious person, then there is no hope for you or you have been raised by bad parenting.

 

Preacher did not say that. He is in a way that derives from his faith stating that our culture is to blame for these shootings. He isn't attacking anyone here and he did not come here to argue with the all-knowing atheists who have no tolerance for those that do believe in God. If you want a forum for that, ask FK and I am sure he will create a forum just for atheism.

 

 

Heh, do I feel a pinch? Sarcastic pinch? I don't mind points of Preacher, but again, as I stated before, if I would be shameless, I could easily said that between his lines he meant that. But I won't because it's not fair.

 

Btw, how can you say I'm all known atheist? Maybe I am a believer (maybe even Evangelicalism one) who doesn't like hypocrisy in religion and in institution. Also, I have a tolerance to ones who have a belief, but I had multiple experiences with beliefers (or maybe they called themselves such but were far from that) have been convinced that they're always right and you couldn't express your point of view, even if they went far over limits by insulting everything.

 

Also, I didn't attack Preacher. That picture? Just my point how religion mostly mediated over institution can be big hipocrisy. And even bigger hipocritical are the people.

[ZeroDamage]

Btw, how can you say I'm all known atheist? Maybe I am a believer (maybe even Evangelicalism one) who doesn't like hypocrisy in religion and in institution. Also, I have a tolerance to ones who have a belief, but I had multiple experiences with beliefers (or maybe they called themselves such but were far from that) have been convinced that they're always right and you couldn't express your point of view, even if they went far over limits by insulting everything.

 

Because most atheists such as yourself have no tolerance for those of faith. You think the faithful are backwoods southern hillbillies. It's a common view from atheists and it is normal for atheists to attack those they do not agree with. I personally couldn't give a crap what someone believes but demeaning others' beliefs and rushing prove believers wrong is annoying if not ignorant.

 

 

 

Also, I didn't attack Preacher. That picture? Just my point how religion mostly mediated over institution can be big hipocrisy. And even bigger hipocritical are the people.

 

You just said you didn't attack Preacher but then proceed to call him and everyone else of faith hypocrites. Atheists cannot help themselves. The disdain and intolerance for anyone that doesn't believe as they do is readily apparent online and in society.

 

A joke: An Atheist and a minister are riding down the street and drive past a military grave yard. What do they see?

 

The minister: Fallen heroes

The Atheist: How dare they have a cross there?!?!? I am suing!

[Madvillain]

We should probably get back on topic of the school shootings and stop bashing others beliefs, religion doesn't need to be involved in sending good will towards those affected by the school shooting tragedy.

 

Have any of us ever met god(s)? Are any of those religious tomes/books being passed around actually written by god(s)? All the info we have is at best 2nd hand information... let's all play a game of telephone and see what word the last person thinks was said.... I don't care who you answer to, we are all on this earth together so let's just love each other and stop cramming beliefs down each others throats.

 

The Atheist: How dare they have a cross there?!?!? I am suing!

I am rarely offended but this offends me. But you know what? That's life, everyone's ideals are always going to line up with each other.

[Kuma]

Sorry ZD, but you're wrong here. Should I write that always SOME people, not Preacher but SOME people are being hyprocritical about religion, would be better?

I also guess that Preacher wasn't pointing out to specific persons or people but he meant overall. Did he say that he means overall? I didn't see it, I might misread it. I also meant overall but I didn't write it. Again, wasn't pointing out on Preacher.

 

And again, the 1st quote is just pure guessing. Even thou' I don't agree on some things, that doesn't mean I am ignorant and intolerant. And still, you're telling me that I am intolerant and the same time, puring out of your writing how atheist are intolerant, ignorant and more. Are you sure you aren't intolerant?

 

 

Btw, I don't mind crosses on graves. Sometimes even better and discreetly than those "catambos" on some graves.

[TheDude]

People are getting insulted. I'm out of here.

 

Although I will leave you with this: we atheists harbour no disrespect or prejudice towards those who do believe, so why can't we expect those who believe to do the same thing? Because it is your belief itself that tells you to prejudice atheists, which is why i had no intention of turning this into the sort of thread it has.

Within the boundaries of reason, there can never be a consensus between those who cling to religion and those who cling to atheism.

 

Preacher opened this topic chastising non-believers. How did you expect we'd react?

[Preacher]

I actually posted the opening statement of this thread in another and was asked to move it here. I did so willingly because I knew it was one of those topics that lead to bashing.

[Bunny]

Proof for you and me may differ greatly. I have experienced my God on many occasions in different ways but my experience may be convincing only to myself.

 

I agree with this as far as what you expect in other people...which is great because it's good to be realistic. When you experience God, it's a great feeling -- however, someone can experience something that doesn't consist of God, and it would be equally beautiful. If someone has an experience, perhaps a realization of their purpose in life that doesn't consist of fulfillment of any supernatural being, doesn't make them anymore correct than that of a person who had an experience that consisted of the fulfillment of a supernatural being. The point is that...everything is open to interpretation, and that's the beauty of life. No matter which way you look at the creation of life, why we are here, or anything else...no one ever knows for certain. You may know that God exists because you've had personal experience, but someone else may know that God DOESN'T exist from personal experience. The truth is that ANYTHING could have resulted to the mass shooting of those kids and adults -- I'm not going to deny that it could've been for a religious reason, but I also will say that our thought processes and actions are complex (to our knowledge), and there's really no way that we can pinpoint the cause...especially in just a few sentences. If you're gonna tell me that this was for a religious reason, then you need to understand that there are very little truths about religion. I'm glad your confident, but the problem is that everyone else has different opinions and feel confident about them, and there's no way of knowing. These "lies" you are talking about could be very true, and the world needs more than just "well because I've had personal experience" to call it anything religious as fact.

[amertrash]

Preacher, skipping the quote to make it a bit smaller

 

As for what Christians believe - that's what you believe yourself not on a whole. I was born and raised mostly in Catholic schools and likewise many of their views are different from yours or any other Christian sect. My grandmother still thinks my brother is going to hell for converting to Lutheranism for that matter. But cutting through it you believe that people who don't "find Jesus" are going to hell, and you believe your God is the all knowing creator of all. That means that your god knew that throughout history that not only would the greater majority of Humanity be in perpetual suffering(Always liked the First Noble Truth of Buddism for this - the dukkha) in life, but would be doomed to hell simply for living in place where Jesus isn't known or illegal. Being born in North Korea means living life in poverty and misery and going to hell as Jesus is virtually unknown and illegal for that matter. This makes your god seem quite cruel to me, but it's not like the other major religion that believe in a concept of Heaven and Hell are any different, their believers all feel the same as you do about their beliefs and believe they are on unquestionably right. All of the major religions believe that they are right and everyone is wrong with no actual evidence, and they're all influenced by each other, just like every monotheistic religion took from Zoroastrianism. Just like if you were born in an area that was Islamic you'd probably believe in Muhammad and the Kabba and the rest. I see no compelling evidence that any of you are right, much less any reason to believe in any of them. I also find it amazing that you believe some of the greatest philanthropists and artists are in hell(or going to) because they didn't believe in what you do, but a serial rapist that finds Jesus can go to heaven. As for Christians not discriminating on race, that's your belief. The Morman's official stance until 1978 didn't allow black people full membership into the church, just like in the past different sects of Christianity(And Islam, Buddhism, Taoism, etc) throughout history discriminated against people that weren't part of their ethnic group.

 

As far as your stance on believing homosexuality is evil - if you truly believe that you should stop using computers as with out Alan Turing we wouldn't have them. Without Eric Allman and Marshall Kirk McKusick we wouldn't have email, and the internet itself probably wouldn't exist in its current form. Being Muslim, homosexual, Christian, Pagan, whatever doesn't make you good or bad, or any more moral than the rest. For that matter from how I was raised on Jesus I don't believe he would he would judge, hate, or persecute homosexuals or other religions. His teaching from what I was taught was that of peace, love, understanding and unity of man without discrimination or hate.

 

I personally believe in Humanity and I'm Apatheistic. I don't see how any religion that believes in a god or gods is any more correct than the rest, nor am I concerned about the existence of a deity that seemingly has no concern about us. I do not Judge others on their religion I just ask that they don't try and force it upon others, it's simple enough.

 

ZD, I've never even heard of someone being angry at a military cemetery over the use of crosses. Further more it makes no sense as atheists in the military get their own symbol just like Muslims, Sikas, etc.

 

[ZeroDamage]

Sorry ZD, but you're wrong here. Should I write that always SOME people, not Preacher but SOME people are being hyprocritical about religion, would be better?

I also guess that Preacher wasn't pointing out to specific persons or people but he meant overall. Did he say that he means overall? I didn't see it, I might misread it. I also meant overall but I didn't write it. Again, wasn't pointing out on Preacher.

 

And again, the 1st quote is just pure guessing. Even thou' I don't agree on some things, that doesn't mean I am ignorant and intolerant. And still, you're telling me that I am intolerant and the same time, puring out of your writing how atheist are intolerant, ignorant and more. Are you sure you aren't intolerant?

 

 

Btw, I don't mind crosses on graves. Sometimes even better and discreetly than those "catambos" on some graves.

 

It's like I already said. Preacher and myself included believe that our culture and the rot in our culture is to blame for what happened. Once upon a time whether you agreed with it being right or wrong, our schools had a religious foundation that taught right and wrong and it was based on Christianity. Atheists and others may disagree on where morality comes from but I believe it comes from religion and the dictates associated to each religion. They all state that murder is wrong. Stealing is wrong, etc etc. When that is taken out of every day learning and that foundation is gone along with our pop culture of violence and abortion on demand, you have a culture that doesn't respect and protect life. Kids are seeing mass murder daily on TV and in video games and hearing it in modern day music but we instead get politicians blaming an inanimate object (guns). Let me add that the media glorifying these evil murderers doesn't help any either.

 

Now do not get me wrong, I love violent video games and movies and what not just as much as the next person. I am referring to what our kids are exposed to. There are however many bad parents taking their kids to violent movies and letting them play violent video games. I saw no less than a dozen kids under 10 at the last James Bond movie. We all deal with annoying kids in CS and COD games. My son is disabled and is always trying to get me to let him watch Family Guy and play fps games like COD but I will not let him. Games were not as realistic when I was his age as they are now. And he being 13 puts him at the start of puberty and the hormones that come with it. I will not let him be exposed to the culture any more than necessary. He likes hip hop and rap and trust me, I dislike it a great deal. Have to give a little and that is about the extent of what I will give and even then only reluctantly.

 

I think Atheists can be and can believe whatever they want. Maybe not you specifically but I wish Atheists would stop complaining about Christianity and other religions all the time. Stop being offended at everything.

Edited December 17, 2012 by ZeroDamage

[ZeroDamage]

ZD, I've never even heard of someone being angry at a military cemetery over the use of crosses. Further more it makes no sense as atheists in the military get their own symbol just like Muslims, Sikas, etc.

 

Been a number of stories over the years. From crosses at cemeteries, Christmas displays on public places (It's a national holiday for crying out loud. Stop crying about it!), and other monuments. Display of the Ten commandments for example in some government buildings.

 

Here is an example: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57494930/9-11-museum-atheists-spar-over-cross/

[Kuma]

To be honest, there should ethics subject in all kinda school. We had it during primary school and it taught us a lot, especially "feel the consequences" which modern kids cannot feel it.

 

And about games and childhood: although we had violent games, from DOOM and others shooting games to NFS, we still had childhood and played outside. Was these kids have? I mean, not all of them, but still, majority. And when you said about movies and games, I think it's more propaganda over some violent games/movies, to be honest, movies are far more detailed as used to be, same for games.

 

And what you described if your example of your son, that is called a good parenting and it should be in all of families, religious or not.

[shaftiel]

This is a spirituality and religion forum. Not a forum for you Atheists to come in here in outrage that people actually believe in something. There are plenty of other places on the internet for that.

 

Um... so what is this forum exactly... a mutual masterbation fest for believers? Come on, the whole point is for the open and free discusion of religion and religious beliefs. Its very purpose requires people to ask questions and share other viewpoints on what God is or isn't.

 

As for me I don't really worry to much about God. I believe he might be out there.... but there have been litterally hundreds of thousands of gods in our history, ranging from animal/nature spirits all the way to complex multi-level gods with many forms. The one thing that they all have in common, was that they all had followers that KNEW they were right, and that everyone else was wrong lol. Its the human condition, we can not accept, litterally can not accept, that we might have no other purpose than to procreate. We are thinking people, that is completely unacceptable. We need more to life, we need a reason to exist that has more meaning, that we can strive for. I mean, we are speacial. We are not like any other animal on this planet. Our thinking minds, our ego's, need to have something to prove that we are ment for more than just rutting around like an animal. God's, dieties, supernatural entities that allow us to feel connected to something more than the mundane world around us, allows our minds to find a reason, a purpose for us.

 

So yeah, people can believe in whatever they want, doesn't matter to me at all. They are probably wrong, just like the billions of humans in the past were wrong, but its what most people need to be able to function. Life without a higher purpose, without something to seperate us from the ordinary beast, is almost impossible for our brains to accept. My only issue is when people try and force their belief system on me, through morality laws, or scare tactics. Religious people are no smarter today than their counterparts were thousands of years ago, so don't run around pretending you have the Truth. Because they did too.

 

 

 

 

 

Shaftiel

[amertrash]

ZD, I've never even heard of someone being angry at a military cemetery over the use of crosses. Further more it makes no sense as atheists in the military get their own symbol just like Muslims, Sikas, etc.

 

Been a number of stories over the years. From crosses at cemeteries, Christmas displays on public places (It's a national holiday for crying out loud. Stop crying about it!), and other monuments. Display of the Ten commandments for example in some government buildings.

 

Here is an example: http://www.cbsnews.c...par-over-cross/

 

So if they had chosen to represent a different religion, like putting a statue of Buddha to represent the Buddhists that died in the tower how many Christians do you think would protest?

[Preacher]

I doubt any would protest a monument to the dead. And Shaft, man the tone is what inflames. Debate and conversation doesn't have to be mean. I realize many differ from me in opinion and outlook, as well as core belief, but I don't think that we have to fight it out every time we engage one another

[shaftiel]

er... I didn't attack anyone at all in my post. My apologies to you and yours if you took offense, however you might have read my post with preconcieved notions. We all do that, shrug. My post was almost pro religion. I just pointed out that every religion in history has known that they were right and had just as much faith and belief in thier god/gods as we do today.

 

 

 

 

 

Shaftiel