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Suicide Charger Dodgeball and other things (Cont.)


Fenix

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I'm just continuing this from the other thread that was locked. There seems to be a lot of discussion about it, and I still think it is an issue. I'm not saying that even admins are wrong, but according to Jackie, this type of play by the survivors is pretty much the same as suicide.

 

What are some of the other things we do in-game that could be considered griefing or bannable that admins sometimes let us do? Or should I ask what do people do when admins aren't online that we know isn't allowed but happens anyways?

 

I'm not trying to stir up anything, I just want to see what is acceptable and what isn't, because it seems some of us think certain things are OK and certain things aren't...and even some admins are in disagreement.

Edited by Fenix
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Jackie said it was suicide/griefing so there is your answer. However if there is a passing vote put up by an admin or if both teams come to the same consensus in game to play charger dodgeball then all is good, its a game so its meant to be fun.

 

That's what I got from the thread, I don't see a reason to keep dragging this conversation on however keep on trucking if you feel it necessary.

 

People take this game too seriously... its just a game, stuff happens, move on, play again.

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End of No Mercy and Hard Rain are the maps I see this done the most. Happens when score no longer matters. The survivors go to the END of the map and START the event (so its different from suiciding themselves or griefing in the saferoom). The survivors choose to defend themselves during the event on the helipad or in front of the water (areas where it usually easier for death charges). As the word "dodgeball" implies, the survivors are trying NOT to get charged off (this is the opposite of suicide). I have seen it done many times. I never heard a complaint from either side (I have been on infected teams and survivor teams when this happens). I have actually lasted to the end and finished the map while doing this. It is actually quite easy to dodge chargers when you are expecting them! Again, the idea is NOT to be killed, the survivors are simply deciding to defend an area that is not the typical strategic area, that for some reason we have all decided must be defended at the end of these maps. I was not in the game that Fenix referred to, so maybe things went differently and in the future, I will not do it unless an admin says it is okay.

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From what I can judge 'charger dodgeball' goes against two server rules:

  • Be polite by: not intentionally disrupting gameplay
  • Show sportsmanship by: being gracious as a winner and as a loser

There is also a lesser rule of "don't be a dick". So I guess you are tactically on right (or at least more correct). Of course this doesn't mean admins will actually enforce the server rules that they themselves set and/or agreed to follow. Like what was ultimately decided on the other thread, they could simply disregard the violation as harmless fun or dish out 'stern warnings' that doesn't really deter anyone.

 

If you really care about this issue I guess you could try grabbing a demo next time and make a request for a reprimand. A demo will prove if everyone did agreed to play the death race or the charger dodgeball or whatever kids a doing these days and show if there was an actual rule violation. Otherwise it will be a hodgepodge of he said she said.

 

Anyway don't invest too much into this. There will alway be people who gets on your nerves by griefing or semi-griefing. But there are also brave souls like Chick and Mae who switches teams and tries to balance things out... although I have to say that usually results in them rage quiting... but my point is just try to relax and enjoy the show. If you just stop and look around you will realize admins are doing everything that they can do to help you. From time to time they may seem contradictory or even incompetent, but they can't change L4D2 being L4D2.

Edited by Socks
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Plz stay on topic, and just PM somebody if you wanna go off topic, or make a new thread. I hate it when people go off-topic on someone's thread. Even I occasionally do it too but no one says anything and it gets carried away, which is why I'm asking you guys to please stay on topic.

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**Well, this wasn't short, as what always happens, but if you are adverse to reading(that means you don't like it) please at least read the last paragraph. Thanks. :P

 

So by these rules, the admins would not be able to change anything about the server for fun when they are on. This gives an advantage to one team or another.

 

No more slapping Yuri, because it will push her along further, and that would ruin the 'game' and the 'fun' of her running wherever Yuri goes (I really don't know. I'd be interested to find out though).

No more giving the losing team more points to compensate for a lack of skill when they are losing by 3000+ points.

No more Boomer/Jockey rounds for infected.

No more Tanks on the Survivors side(when he's the last one left, Infected vs last survivor + tanks

No more.....pretty much any variation of just trying to make it to the safe room, because someone might get mad that other people want to have fun for a round.

 

I hate political correctness. I really do. Things like 'Charger dodgeball' on a finale when the score is decided by 2000+ points make the ending fun for both sides, and is a lot more fun. I am the most competitive person I know, but when the finale rolls around and your team is losing by 2000 points, yeah, let loose, have some fun. In the end, that's what this game is for, to have fun. At the heart of GC, the goal is to have fun and to make friends in the process.

 

If we all played the game with no variations, Fenix, everyone would be a lot more bitter than before, no one would switch, and we all wouldn't really like each other. I'll tell you what, when I play my heart out, only to see my team play poorly, and get owned by the other team, yeah, I want to have another sort of fun every once in a while. We don't have to be heartless bastards that must play every round exactly according to plan, lest someone gets angry with it. That's what makes us human; different interests. I am all for this because if the TEAM wants to, then it'll happen. Just like if I yell for the team to save me, and they stand around looking stupid, I won't get saved.

 

Things like holding a terrible spot WHEN THE GAME IS ALREADY DECIDED ONE WAY OR ANOTHER, or going only secondary weapons on a finale, or even the Talpa Challenge make the game fun. If 2/18 people don't like it, well, then majority rules, I'm sorry, I really am. If you change it, 8/9 people won't like it.And that doesn't make sense either. When you play a five round campaign, your team is down by 2000 points, on the finale, and there is another fresh five round campaign on the horizon, and you don't want to relax and have fun on the last round before the new campaign? Too bad. Play better, you will have lots more chances to prove yourself.

 

Just one more thing and I'll let you go, and bear with me on this one.

If you calculate the pure odds, assuming all rounds of all campaigns take exactly the same amount of time, and 'Survivor dodgeball' happens every single hard rain and no mercy finale, it happens 2/52. For simplicity's sake, let's say 2/50, or a 4% chance every time you play, this happens. Now, I know for a fact that this usually happens in 10% of those finales, from what I've played(and that is being completely generous in itself), but since we don't have the exact statistics, I'll let you have 'Survivor dodgeball' occurring 100% of those finales.

This means that for 96% of the time you play on this server, it is fun, and you are content with the server, and everything is hunky dory. And 4%(a very generous 4, in my opinion) of the time you hate it with a fiery passion that consumes worlds. That's FOUR PERCENT of the time you spend on the server! It's 2/50, 1/25, less that two and a half minutes per hour you are discontent with the server.

Now, if you can't just power though it, I understand. But I also see that you are a CONTRIBUTING MEMBER. Which means you can leave the server, grab a bite to eat, go to the bathroom, do whatever it is you want to do instead of 'Survivor dodgeball', AND STILL COME BACK AT THE START OF THE NEXT CAMPAIGN!

Now, if this is not good enough for you, there is another issue at hand, you need to be entertained and happy 100% of the time at all times while playing Left for Dead, well, I'm sorry it's not going to happen. It just isn't. If the majority wants it to happen, it will happen. This is a GAME. Not killing anyone for real, lynching anyone, or breaking the law. It's called having fun, and it will happen 4% of the time without you.

If enjoying a server 96% of the time isn't good enough for you, well, then I hate to break it to you, but this is not the server for you.

 

**EDIT: There is a reason why all of the old timers and regulars like to change it up a bit every now and then. And if you want to stop me from having fun, well, that would make a lot more loyal players feel robbed.

Speaking of robbed, I need to pay my membership, it just expired lol....Lookback!! I need you!!! I need help! haha :P

Edited by MattKemp
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I think as you guys know, I haven't posted on this whole topic since saying it was the same as griefing. There was a few things I was enlightened of since then and didn't post about.

 

1. Both teams had consent of it. I was under the impression that only Survivors agreed on it happening (like those times where Survivors just suddenly go emo because they're losing and decide to take a long jump off a short pier). If both teams agree on something, it shouldn't be against the rules. It's like having a knife fight in CS which something like that was never against GC rules.

 

2. If both teams want to do it and an admin is on, a vote should take place to make things more "official" and "public" before it happens.

 

3. I thought it was something completely different where it was a more varying way of "suiciding because of losing" since you guys never did this whenever I was around.

 

Something like this isn't going to be agreed upon with 100% of the people on the server. SOMEONE is going to not like it, thus there is backlash. People need to understand that just because several people are vocal about it happening on a finale also doesn't mean that the majority want to do it, thus if an admin is present, a vote should take place. People need to be vocal about things. If someone didn't want to play "Charger Dodgeball" and stays silent about it in game, it's like "Okay, you are going to be thrown off a cliff" and you don't speak up about it until you're already flung off the edge. Not much you can do about not being thrown off because it already happened. If you don't want something to happen, speak up, don't be silent then make an angry topic/post about it on the forums...now I'm not naming anyone or singling anyone out, but this is just future proofing.

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When i play most time i dont really care about the score I just want all ten of us to make it Or none of them to make it.

When its close yes i care .

 

That also means this topic can't be about going off-topic, so !slap Peanut and !slap Madvillain

Those 2 need slapped just because

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**Well, this wasn't short, as what always happens, but if you are adverse to reading(that means you don't like it) please at least read the last paragraph. Thanks. :P

 

So by these rules, the admins would not be able to change anything about the server for fun when they are on. This gives an advantage to one team or another.

 

No more slapping Yuri, because it will push her along further, and that would ruin the 'game' and the 'fun' of her running wherever Yuri goes (I really don't know. I'd be interested to find out though).

No more giving the losing team more points to compensate for a lack of skill when they are losing by 3000+ points.

No more Boomer/Jockey rounds for infected.

No more Tanks on the Survivors side(when he's the last one left, Infected vs last survivor + tanks

No more.....pretty much any variation of just trying to make it to the safe room, because someone might get mad that other people want to have fun for a round.

 

I hate political correctness. I really do. Things like 'Charger dodgeball' on a finale when the score is decided by 2000+ points make the ending fun for both sides, and is a lot more fun. I am the most competitive person I know, but when the finale rolls around and your team is losing by 2000 points, yeah, let loose, have some fun. In the end, that's what this game is for, to have fun. At the heart of GC, the goal is to have fun and to make friends in the process.

 

If we all played the game with no variations, Fenix, everyone would be a lot more bitter than before, no one would switch, and we all wouldn't really like each other. I'll tell you what, when I play my heart out, only to see my team play poorly, and get owned by the other team, yeah, I want to have another sort of fun every once in a while. We don't have to be heartless bastards that must play every round exactly according to plan, lest someone gets angry with it. That's what makes us human; different interests. I am all for this because if the TEAM wants to, then it'll happen. Just like if I yell for the team to save me, and they stand around looking stupid, I won't get saved.

 

Things like holding a terrible spot WHEN THE GAME IS ALREADY DECIDED ONE WAY OR ANOTHER, or going only secondary weapons on a finale, or even the Talpa Challenge make the game fun. If 2/18 people don't like it, well, then majority rules, I'm sorry, I really am. If you change it, 8/9 people won't like it.And that doesn't make sense either. When you play a five round campaign, your team is down by 2000 points, on the finale, and there is another fresh five round campaign on the horizon, and you don't want to relax and have fun on the last round before the new campaign? Too bad. Play better, you will have lots more chances to prove yourself.

 

Just one more thing and I'll let you go, and bear with me on this one.

If you calculate the pure odds, assuming all rounds of all campaigns take exactly the same amount of time, and 'Survivor dodgeball' happens every single hard rain and no mercy finale, it happens 2/52. For simplicity's sake, let's say 2/50, or a 4% chance every time you play, this happens. Now, I know for a fact that this usually happens in 10% of those finales, from what I've played(and that is being completely generous in itself), but since we don't have the exact statistics, I'll let you have 'Survivor dodgeball' occurring 100% of those finales.

This means that for 96% of the time you play on this server, it is fun, and you are content with the server, and everything is hunky dory. And 4%(a very generous 4, in my opinion) of the time you hate it with a fiery passion that consumes worlds. That's FOUR PERCENT of the time you spend on the server! It's 2/50, 1/25, less that two and a half minutes per hour you are discontent with the server.

Now, if you can't just power though it, I understand. But I also see that you are a CONTRIBUTING MEMBER. Which means you can leave the server, grab a bite to eat, go to the bathroom, do whatever it is you want to do instead of 'Survivor dodgeball', AND STILL COME BACK AT THE START OF THE NEXT CAMPAIGN!

Now, if this is not good enough for you, there is another issue at hand, you need to be entertained and happy 100% of the time at all times while playing Left for Dead, well, I'm sorry it's not going to happen. It just isn't. If the majority wants it to happen, it will happen. This is a GAME. Not killing anyone for real, lynching anyone, or breaking the law. It's called having fun, and it will happen 4% of the time without you.

If enjoying a server 96% of the time isn't good enough for you, well, then I hate to break it to you, but this is not the server for you.

 

**EDIT: There is a reason why all of the old timers and regulars like to change it up a bit every now and then. And if you want to stop me from having fun, well, that would make a lot more loyal players feel robbed.

Speaking of robbed, I need to pay my membership, it just expired lol....Lookback!! I need you!!! I need help! haha :P

 

This completely disregards the fact that for the losing team, those other 4/5 levels (not including the finale) are *not* fun. It's 4 levels of one team getting absolutely destroyed. Remember we're not talking about every match... just the matches in which, by the 2nd or 3rd level, the scores are so disparate that the game is basically over.

 

You are having fun because you're on the winning team. The other half of the people on the Server are building up rage. And that's when the trouble starts.

 

And keep in mind, none of the proposed changes or suggestions would preclude the winning team from instituting 2nd level weapons only, or Admin slapping, or Boomer/Jockey rounds, etc. If the winning team continues to rack up the points, they can continue to play however the majority of the team decides to play. It's not about political correctness (and that's a term that gets thrown around now anytime there's a disagreement on anything), it's about maximizing fun for the most number of players, for the most number of rounds.

Edited by Baloosh
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I think as you guys know, I haven't posted on this whole topic since saying it was the same as griefing. There was a few things I was enlightened of since then and didn't post about.

 

1. Both teams had consent of it. I was under the impression that only Survivors agreed on it happening (like those times where Survivors just suddenly go emo because they're losing and decide to take a long jump off a short pier). If both teams agree on something, it shouldn't be against the rules. It's like having a knife fight in CS which something like that was never against GC rules.

 

2. If both teams want to do it and an admin is on, a vote should take place to make things more "official" and "public" before it happens.

 

3. I thought it was something completely different where it was a more varying way of "suiciding because of losing" since you guys never did this whenever I was around.

 

Something like this isn't going to be agreed upon with 100% of the people on the server. SOMEONE is going to not like it, thus there is backlash. People need to understand that just because several people are vocal about it happening on a finale also doesn't mean that the majority want to do it, thus if an admin is present, a vote should take place. People need to be vocal about things. If someone didn't want to play "Charger Dodgeball" and stays silent about it in game, it's like "Okay, you are going to be thrown off a cliff" and you don't speak up about it until you're already flung off the edge. Not much you can do about not being thrown off because it already happened. If you don't want something to happen, speak up, don't be silent then make an angry topic/post about it on the forums...now I'm not naming anyone or singling anyone out, but this is just future proofing.

 

Not true...only the survivors (and not all) and a couple infected had agreed and participated. Read the pictures of the logs I posted. I didn't even know they had even discussed this as I was wondering why everyone was standing on the helipad with no helicopter. Once I looked at the logs, that was when I saw they wanted to play suicide charger dodgeball. This is what tinkled me off which is that I had no idea this was going on till it was too late.

 

I've read a couple posts in the past from other admins that say Suiciding is never OK, no matter what the situation. So why is this considered ok? It's just another form of suicide, just with a challenge. Even if an admin says it's ok, is it still right? This issue of conflicting admin rules says that the admins haven't truly decided on if this should be allowed or not.

 

I'll give another situation. Snake Eyes was on my team for Blood Harvest the other night. We were at the very end of "Train Station" where you have to cross the long bridge to get to the saferoom inside the train. We were all doing fine and Snake Eyes decided he wanted to stay out a bit and kill more infected. We all yelled for him to get inside, and he starts dodging chargers. Then he proceeded to jump off the bridge. No one complained because we were winning by a lot. But does that make it right? Is that a bannable offense? Yes. I didn't report it as I'm tired of reporting GC members when they should know the rules. And I don't like being looked at as the sour puss. Just because we were winning and no one complained still doesn't make it right. That's the point of this thread. There are some "open" rules about what's allowed and what isn't and that's why I wanted to bring this up. There will always be discussions about this if the rules on these types of situations are not established in writing on the forums or elsewhere.

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I think as you guys know, I haven't posted on this whole topic since saying it was the same as griefing. There was a few things I was enlightened of since then and didn't post about.

 

1. Both teams had consent of it. I was under the impression that only Survivors agreed on it happening (like those times where Survivors just suddenly go emo because they're losing and decide to take a long jump off a short pier). If both teams agree on something, it shouldn't be against the rules. It's like having a knife fight in CS which something like that was never against GC rules.

 

2. If both teams want to do it and an admin is on, a vote should take place to make things more "official" and "public" before it happens.

 

3. I thought it was something completely different where it was a more varying way of "suiciding because of losing" since you guys never did this whenever I was around.

 

Something like this isn't going to be agreed upon with 100% of the people on the server. SOMEONE is going to not like it, thus there is backlash. People need to understand that just because several people are vocal about it happening on a finale also doesn't mean that the majority want to do it, thus if an admin is present, a vote should take place. People need to be vocal about things. If someone didn't want to play "Charger Dodgeball" and stays silent about it in game, it's like "Okay, you are going to be thrown off a cliff" and you don't speak up about it until you're already flung off the edge. Not much you can do about not being thrown off because it already happened. If you don't want something to happen, speak up, don't be silent then make an angry topic/post about it on the forums...now I'm not naming anyone or singling anyone out, but this is just future proofing.

 

Not true...only the survivors (and not all) and a couple infected had agreed and participated. Read the pictures of the logs I posted. I didn't even know they had even discussed this as I was wondering why everyone was standing on the helipad with no helicopter. Once I looked at the logs, that was when I saw they wanted to play suicide charger dodgeball. This is what tinkled me off which is that I had no idea this was going on till it was too late.

 

I've read a couple posts in the past from other admins that say Suiciding is never OK, no matter what the situation. So why is this considered ok? It's just another form of suicide, just with a challenge. Even if an admin says it's ok, is it still right? This issue of conflicting admin rules says that the admins haven't truly decided on if this should be allowed or not.

 

I'll give another situation. Snake Eyes was on my team for Blood Harvest the other night. We were at the very end of "Train Station" where you have to cross the long bridge to get to the saferoom inside the train. We were all doing fine and Snake Eyes decided he wanted to stay out a bit and kill more infected. We all yelled for him to get inside, and he starts dodging chargers. Then he proceeded to jump off the bridge. No one complained because we were winning by a lot. But does that make it right? Is that a bannable offense? Yes. I didn't report it as I'm tired of reporting GC members when they should know the rules. And I don't like being looked at as the sour puss. Just because we were winning and no one complained still doesn't make it right. That's the point of this thread. There are some "open" rules about what's allowed and what isn't and that's why I wanted to bring this up. There will always be discussions about this if the rules on these types of situations are not established in writing on the forums or elsewhere.

 

1. mics. and are survivors supposed to tell the infected what they plan on doing?

 

2. as peanut said, trying to avoid chargers is not suiciding

 

3. since snake jumped off, yes that is suiciding. none of us jumped off the helipad/ off the roof

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I have been part of "charger dodgeball" on many occasions. Both sides of it. I have never heard anyone complain about it, except from you. Everyone always had fun, including the admins. Matt Kemp's post says it all really. I am glad Jackie understands. A vote certainly makes sense in the future. And again, every time I have been involved, on the survivor side, the last thing I want is to be charged off. Its not suiciding. The funniest part is seeing so many chargers die in the water missing us. Blood Harvest is a different situation. Doing it there is at the beginning of the map. I would be surprised if Snake Eyes jumped off, but if he did, it had to be a very unusual thing for him. Played with him for so long, and I have never seen him do anything like that.

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