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Leonebluen

Unfair Chick Ban

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So, Chick was going ban crazy today in L4D2. She threatened to ban, well, just about everyone on our team in the third round of the parish, including comments like "next person to complain is getting banned," which is pretty tyrannical, but, that's alright.

 

Anyways, after we killed a tank, me and merc rushed the sewers to spawnblock (with our team right behind us, and their encouragement), and she banned me. No warning, nothing, just an out of nowhere ban. Our team had communicated that we wanted to rush the sewers once the tank died, and she could obviously hear that, and yet she ignored it, gave no warning, and then banned me (and possibly merc, I don't know) for doing so.

 

To me, this doesn't even constitute rushing, since this is basically the accepted strategy for handling the sewers. Moreover, when I'm within sight of part of my team, and a 10 second run from the rest, it hardly seems like rushing. Granted, I wasn't told why I was banned, but I can't imagine any other justification.

 

Anyways, I'll leave this up to the senior admins now.

 

 

Cheers,

Leon.

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first you have just stated that you rushed... second exactly how far behind you was your team? where they in the street above the sewers. were they in the house? the yard before? if your team was in the yard and you were at the far end of the sewers that is rushing and against the server rules. as a member you should be a aware of this and a warn isn't always going to be given.. remember your first warning is the MOTD

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There is, always has been, and always will be, a difference between moving ahead to spawn block, and rushing through a map.

 

My team was spread out between the sewer behind me, the street, and the house, when I made it to the end of the sewer tunnel.

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So, Chick was going ban crazy today in L4D2. She threatened to ban, well, just about everyone on our team in the third round of the parish, including comments like "next person to complain is getting banned," which is pretty tyrannical, but, that's alright.

 

Anyways, after we killed a tank, me and merc rushed the sewers to spawnblock (with our team right behind us, and their encouragement), and she banned me. No warning, nothing, just an out of nowhere ban. Our team had communicated that we wanted to rush the sewers once the tank died, and she could obviously hear that, and yet she ignored it, gave no warning, and then banned me (and possibly merc, I don't know) for doing so.

 

To me, this doesn't even constitute rushing, since this is basically the accepted strategy for handling the sewers. Moreover, when I'm within sight of part of my team, and a 10 second run from the rest, it hardly seems like rushing. Granted, I wasn't told why I was banned, but I can't imagine any other justification.

 

 

 

 

Leon,

 

Let me explain a few things to you. 1) I try to make the teams fair, and lately votescramble seems to not work, so I pick 1 or 2 people to balance out the non-members between teams, NOW when I did that I had a lot of your team complaining about scrambling, so I said the next person to complain will be banned. (that's what we call a fair warning). When you want to argue with admins you are breaking the rules, when you want to be rude to admins who are trying to make a balanced game you are being rude & disrespectful.

 

 

Now on the rushing: Before the tank died, I heard you say and I quote "I'm going to rush the sewer when the tank dies", and then the tanked died, in which I heard YOU AND ONLY YOU say "Merc Rush the Sewers with me", and you both rushed to the end of the tunnel, WHILE half of your team was still in the yard, and some where in the house.

 

My ruling stands. You rushed. You guys are members, and really I'm not going to be a nice nice because you paid dues, YOU KNOW THE RULES. and if you don't maybe you need to read them again, because I'm not going to hold your hand and say "No don't do that, you know better", because you do know better.

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First off, the ban is for 15 minutes only, so I think it's meant more as a slap on the wrist than anything else. It'll probably expire before I've even posted this reply.

So, Chick was going ban crazy today in L4D2. She threatened to ban, well, just about everyone on our team in the third round of the parish, including comments like "next person to complain is getting banned," which is pretty tyrannical, but, that's alright.

Not really much point threatening to ban, this usually only causes more complaining from the server. If one player or an entire team of players is breaking some rule warranting a ban (especially members), just do it.

 

Anyways, after we killed a tank, me and merc rushed the sewers to spawnblock (with our team right behind us, and their encouragement), and she banned me. No warning, nothing, just an out of nowhere ban. Our team had communicated that we wanted to rush the sewers once the tank died, and she could obviously hear that, and yet she ignored it, gave no warning, and then banned me (and possibly merc, I don't know) for doing so.

I don't know if chick plays with !enemyvoice turned on or off, but in general you shouldn't assume that just because something was said into the mic that this means an admin heard it.

 

To me, this doesn't even constitute rushing, since this is basically the accepted strategy for handling the sewers. Moreover, when I'm within sight of part of my team, and a 10 second run from the rest, it hardly seems like rushing. Granted, I wasn't told why I was banned, but I can't imagine any other justification.

 

Anyways, I'll leave this up to the senior admins now.

Rushing is always a tricky subject to deal with... Anyways, I see two players banned for 15 minutes apiece.

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At the start of the game, all people were saying is they didn't want to scramble. No one objected when you swapped two people, and no one was rude or disrespectful to you so far as I recall.

 

Then you obviously weren't paying attention to our team's chat, because someone (not me) said TWICE when that tank was alive that "we should rush the sewers when this tank dies."

 

Moreover, I hope that some of the people from the game show up to comment on this, because we both know my team was not as far back as you're pretending. We were all grouped up in the yard when the tank died, and we ran from there to the sewers. Our team didn't spend 30 seconds chilling in the yard while we took the sewers.

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I'm disappointed that it seems like it doesn't matter whether or not a ban is unfair just because it expires by the time a review can be completed. That devalues this entire forum, and allows unfair treatment (if the treatment is unfair) to continue.

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Moreover, I hope that some of the people from the game show up to comment on this, because we both know my team was not as far back as you're pretending. We were all grouped up in the yard when the tank died, and we ran from there to the sewers. Our team didn't spend 30 seconds chilling in the yard while we took the sewers.

 

At risk of being banned from the forums not even a week after I join them I'll come to your defence.

 

I was on the infected team when you were banned. You did enter the tunnel before the rest of your team did after the tank died to what I perceived was spawn blocking. You stopped at the end of the tunnel after you rushed through it (the large room with the ladder in it).

 

As for her threatening us when we were in the saferoom during the team scramble. Yes there was some backtalk. The team we were on was having a great dynamic and it was very frustrating to have to be scrambled when we were having fun. That being said when it comes to scrambling chick has the final say and if she felt we were out of line she was right to warn us about it. I do believe all "backtalk" stopped after she warned us.

Edited by TheHairyHungarian
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I was in the game (on the Infected side) during this one, and simply my opinion -- that's it and that's all:

 

A tank died, and before Leo and Merc dropped and ran ahead another tank was put into play. Now of course I can't hear what the other team is saying, so I don't know if this was an approved "rush" or not, but with 8 people up in the yard fighting a tank, and 2 run ahead (especially past a choke point), that certainly appears as a rush.

 

This one specfically is a touchy one, and can probably go either way in anyone's opinion. However, the Admins by default get the last say, and it's quite unlike Merc to rush. Not saying you rush, Leo, but you're usually at the front of the pack on your team (which is fine) - leading the way and helping block. Which is fine... usually.

 

But this one did look like rushing, especially when another tank (almost) immediately came into play.

 

Again, only my $.02, from my perspective as someone who happened to be playing at the time in question.

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Just read Hungarian's post after I posted mine... and that just goes to show you that even 2 members on the same team, in the same game, can have different opinions on an event.

 

And regarding the evening of teams - the Admins' job is to ensure a fair, fun game for all 20 players - not to keep teams the same just because one side is having fun, and the other side isn't.

 

As a general rule, fair, balanced games should be everyone's goal. The Admins have a pretty rough job - at the end of the day we have to trust that they're doing what's best for ALL the players in the game.

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At risk of being banned from the forums not even a week after I join them I'll come to your defence.

you won't be

 

We were all grouped up in the yard when the tank died, and we ran from there to the sewers. Our team didn't spend 30 seconds chilling in the yard while we took the sewers.

doesn't sound like a rush to me. This is a touchy spot, I'm sure chick had a legit perception of it as rushing. I don't think this should have been a ban but when thing's get crazy in l4d2 the hammer gets heavy.

 

So ban is over, how does everyone think we can avoid something like this in the future?

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Not really any way to avoid situations like this one, unless you want to ease up globally on the "rushing" rule and make it so it's blatantly obvious to even new guys that "Hmmm maybe that person/couple of people shouldn't be that far ahead."

 

Doing so will open the door for people to push boundaries, and you know they will.

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If it were me, I would have waited to see what they did after they got through the tunnel. If they climbed the ladder, I would have pulled the trigger. Point of no return spots are tough calls and as far as survivability goes when it comes to going past PoNR spots, there would have been nothing they could have done anyway if they dropped when that next Tank showed up. At least at the big room at the end of the tunnel would have upped their survivability by waiting there than hanging out in the tunnel trying to wait for others to drop.

 

This is the almost the same exact scenario when it comes to the No Mercy rooftop. One or two guys will rush the elevator to the roof while the rest of the team is still in the hallway to spawn block. Lots of people have done it and it's deemed acceptable if they stay put until the rest of their team shows up. The rooftop and the sewer tunnel both get very dicey when it comes to coordinated Spitter/Charger attacks.

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So ban is over, how does everyone think we can avoid something like this in the future?

 

Not sure how you can considering the very principle behind the ban is perception. I don't envy the admins it's not an easy job. Sit around and warn someone they're getting to far ahead they can trigger events and wipe the whole team. Remove them and you deal with this when the player perceives his rushing had a tactic. It's a Kobayashi Maru.

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I just think that the fact that it was team-supported, and that the sewer is an accepted place to rush, means that an unwarned ban is unfair.

 

I wasn't moving forward when I was banned. I wasn't warned, just banned. My team wasn't upset, in fact, I was told to take the sewer. If I was told to stop moving forward at any point earlier, I would've.

 

My point is that regardless of whether or not Chick thought we were too far ahead of the team, this was a premature ban. Although I disagree with her perception of the rushing, I respect her opinion on that matter, but that is not why I am upset. She knows Merc and I well enough to know that we would've done what she asked, and banning us without any warning or comment is, in my opinion, unfair and disrespectful.

 

Admins will often go to great lengths to accommodate non-communicative players, but sometimes they won't even give us one warning? The fact that we are members and know the rules is a two way street here. On one hand, it means that yes, we should be held to a higher standard in following the rules. However, I also think it means that admins need to be less eager in these situations. As frequent, long term players, it's obvious that we generally follow the rules. So why didn't merc and I get at least a little benefit of the doubt in this situation? Rushing especially is, as everyone pointed out, a touchy issue. Since rushing is an issue of perception, an immediate ban is just overreacting. Why not take the ten seconds to call us out, and communicate with us? I had stopped moving forward by the time I was banned anyways, since all I wanted to do was spawnblock the tunnel. Or put us in spectate if you're worried we're going to keep moving!

 

My point is that, yes, if members are blatantly breaking the rules, they should get a ban hammer faster than any new player; however, if a member is walking a fine line on an issue, or if it's a questionable problem, then admins should be more willing to communicate with them than other people who don't communicate and don't have a history with the server.

 

 

 

I also think it should be pointed out that we were not informed how long we were banned until after this thread was made, so if I seemed more tinkled off than the situation warranted in my initial post, it was because I assumed the ban was probably for at least an hour or so.

Edited by Leonebluen
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I just think that the fact that it was team-supported

just because its supported doesnt always mean its ok... as an extreme lets say your team says you can rush to the saferoom and your at the begining of the map... that doesnt make it ok... just saying

 

as for a way to avoid it in the future... we could try to keep a 2 room rule as a general guideline while its more difficult in some maps its still a better way to view rushing. look at the sewer map... the yard that they are all in is like a room (generally speaking) the house next is another room the street outside the house is like another "room" if you are 2 rooms ahead its fine.. if you are more than that you might be rushing. so if you team is all in the house then the sewer tunnel is 2 rooms... everyone in the street bottom of the ladder everone dropped top of the ladder and so on... some places this wont really work is those big maps like the first map in hard rain.. so you have to pick markers to view the "rooms" and PoNR's are always gonna be sketchy so I would almost say one room in those instances but that always up for interpretation.

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My Final Word:

 

 

Here's where you find information on your ban: http://www.gamrs.co/l4d/sourcebans/index.php

 

Now that being said. I based my decision on the following things: 1) Before the tank even died you said "I'm going to rush the sewers when the tank dies", nothing said by your team either pro or con, then as the tank died, you had people in the yard, in the house, and you said "Merc Rush the sewers with me". I don't have a problem with spawn blocking, I have a problem with people going far beyond leaving their team in the back, especially when it's a point of no return.

 

I am a very patient admin, I do not bring a ban hammer every time I play, in fact, I'm pretty darn nice. There's a BIG OLE sign in chat & in the MOTD that that's your first & only warning. BUT, I will 9/10 be nice and let people slide with a warning. I chose to ban you and I will not apologize for it or take it back, or say "I was wrong", because what I saw was rushing, and I dealt a punishment I felt was fair & just.

 

Now Can we please close this topic

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Repect to all.

if i had to do it a gain i would.

Just the fact of being out in front doesnt constute rushing

Rushing is the act of running ahead , not caring about the team .

What we did was not rushing

Now lets play.

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