MurderinClony August 30, 2014 Share MurderinClony Member August 30, 2014 I've been meaning to post this for some time now because it has really been getting on my nerves lately. People claim stacks in general, and on any team that General is on as well, but there is some times when there is no stack at all, just a good player who has been given a game changer. I am talking about the Tank, but not just any tank, a Clever Tank. Some people will say, Tanks aren't that great, and to a point, these people are right. Given that no buffs have been attributed to a tank other than the fact that he can heal for a certain amount of points, he is still proposes a tough challenge. With 6k health he easily trumps the other infected's ability to withstand a bullet shower and can deal the 2nd most damaging hit in the game. Plenty of you are like, "Get on with it Clony, tell us why we are here." Well I intend to but you need to know some things first. The Tank sucks. He flat out sucks. On any server, he sucks. On this server, he sucks just a hint less than all the rest. Here is a nice piece of information for you on how bad the Tank sucks. From my Left 4 Dead 1 days, and now all of you who are going "Here we go, story time..." bear with me, the Tank is the only real infected that posses a challenge, and even there, in the first game, he sucks. Ill let you know just how bad he sucks. A tank can be killed with tier 1 weapons, those include the pump shotgun, the chrome shotgun, the smg, the silenced smg, and the pistol or double pistol, from 4 survivors in less than 15 seconds flat. You heard me, 15 seconds. The Tank sucks. "Okay we get it the tank sucks, what are you getting at here." Settle down now, here comes the interesting part. Plot twist: The Tank is actually the best. "This is nonsense I am out of here." Sit your butt down we haven't started yet. A Tank can manipulate objects to his advantage, albeit only certain objects, and many of these objects have the ability to instantaneously incapacitate a survivor. It also should be noted that this object that incapacitates a survivor is not stopped on that survivor and can proceed to incapacitate as many as it wants before it stops. I will devour you. This is why he is the best. The tank is the only infected who can indirectly cause an instantaneous incapacitation without being anywhere near or in the sight of the survivors. Sadly, all maps are not littered with objects that can instantaneously incapacitate survivors and this is why the Tank sucks. "We are going in circles Clony." Just read on and quit griping. On any level without these objects, a Tank is at a huge disadvantage. On any level with these objects, the tank is at a huge advantage. On any level without these objects, a Clever Tank is in his natural environment. On any level with these objects, a Clever Tank should win hands down. Here we are, the whole point of this topic right here: Calling stacks in a game where a team just got wiped by a tank, while the other team made it, is utterly wrong and you should be kicked for even saying such ludicrous words. Allow me to explain. A Tank can down all 10 survivors in one swing. The odds of that happening are not high because most people are spread out, but if I get that one lucky hit that just happens to hit all 10 survivors, the round is over in a matter of seconds, maybe 2-4 seconds, and our team now has a massive lead but only because of that lucky hit we had. The teams aren't stacked, we just had a good tank. Given the fact from earlier, about the tank dying in 15 second from 4 tier 1 guns, we can conclude that with 10 guns, which is 2.5 times the amount of bullet spray, and tier 2 guns that most people will have shortly after the round starts, which is double the amount of damage, we can conclude that the tank can die in a good.... 3 seconds of spawning based on statistics. But we will give the benefit of the doubt that not all players are aimbotters and will miss a few shots, so a Tank can die in a good 8-10 seconds. One team can kill this tank that was unlucky and didn't get that nice hit to down all survivors and move on while they also get very lucky and end the round in one hit due to luck. But now due to this, a good distance in score is created and now people begin to call stacks just because the other team got lucky. Give a Tank to a bad player and he will get himself killed. Give a Tank to a good player and he will do some good damage. Give a Tank to a lucky player and he can wipe the team. Give a Tank to a Clever player and he will wipe the team. A Clever Tank utilizes the objects to not only hit survivors with but also to shield himself from incoming bullet fire and reduce overall damage, increasing his lifespan and giving him more time to hit more things at the survivors. A Clever Tank knows when to go in and fight and when to run away and hide. A Clever Tank can wipe the team with just his bare fists. A Clever Tank doesn't need to be lucky. A Clever Tank is.... well you get the point. Just because a Tank wipes the team and the other team makes it to the saferoom, doesn't mean that the game is stacked, it just means that the person behind the Tank was either lucky or Clever. How do you compensate for one person being Clever? You can't, you have to deal with it. Swapping him to the other team doesn't guarantee he can pull off the same trick again and make the game fair again. Swapping good players to the other team is one way to counter this Clever Tank but just swapping all the good players except him to the other team so his Clever Tank can't pull of that tank again will make a stack. Once the Clever Tank is killed, are the players they swapped going to come back? Probably not and a reverse stack will have been created trying to prevent a "stack" or as I like to call it "A Clever Tank." How do you compensate for luck? You can't, you have to deal with it. The odds of the same thing happening twice are not likely. Short Version: The Tank sucks. The Tank rules. Clever Tank is Clever. Luck is Luck. One Clever Player is not stack friendly. Luck is not stack friendly. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercman August 30, 2014 Share Mercman GC Server Admin August 30, 2014 I agree with this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenix August 30, 2014 Share Fenix Member August 30, 2014 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pumpernickel August 30, 2014 Share Pumpernickel Member August 30, 2014 Another case of a whiny player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeanutButterNJelly August 30, 2014 Share PeanutButterNJelly GC Alumni August 30, 2014 You are correct about all this. I realized a long time ago, watching really good players, how they are able to almost single-handedly stop a good survivor team. First you need to accumulate tank points (and heal points if possible), by certain parts of the map. Then buy the tank at the exact perfect moment. General is very good at this tank timing and so is Swat. Rocketing the tank in, and getting one hit on a car to instantly in-cap half the other team, can usually end the round there. Having your team buy up "tank buy unannounce" and boom the other team constantly also helps a lot (communication is important).Being a slow learner, Swat has had to give me a lot of these messages: "you bought it too early", "you should have bought it at ____". Funny how you buy a tank a few seconds early and it gets destroyed almost instantly, you buy it at the right time, you stop the survivors, no matter how good they are. If teams are really stacked (one team has top players, plus all members, vs a team with a couple members and all people that just acquired the game), its going to be a frustrating time. This is when we need an admin's help. But most of the time, instead of complaining about stacked teams (especially when # of regulars is relatively even, no matter how many "good" players are all on one team), just try to get your team coordinated and work for tanks in the right spots. Get your team to buy up the right classes quickly, be prepared at every choke point, get your team to CONSTANTLY boom, get them to buy up tank unnanounce, and learn the perfect spots for tanks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MurderinClony August 30, 2014 Author Share MurderinClony Member August 30, 2014 Im still waiting for someone to point out the oddity in my post, then I will know you guys fully read it :3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Architect August 30, 2014 Share Architect Member August 30, 2014 The oddity is that it was well written and written by you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny August 30, 2014 Share Johnny Member August 30, 2014 Respectfully, I must refute you sir. Eight to ten seconds is still somewhat exaggerated. You are assuming a majority of the team is actively shooting, but more importantly, hitting the tank consistently for all 8 seconds. There are only a few areas where the tank is lined up perfectly and without any cover for this to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anzul August 30, 2014 Share anzul Member August 30, 2014 (edited) Im still waiting for someone to point out the oddity in my post, then I will know you guys fully read it :3 "i will devour you." creepy as hell. man... how come you guys didnt notice it??? Edited August 30, 2014 by anzul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny August 30, 2014 Share Johnny Member August 30, 2014 (edited) I believe you will like this video Clony. Supports your post. Player: ME Johnny the Noob Class: Tank Map: Terminal. No interactable objects. Bonus: the clutch heal Edited August 30, 2014 by MeJohnny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerkoff August 30, 2014 Share Jerkoff Member August 30, 2014 (edited) To counterattack against a good/clever tank is to have a good vocal leader. Far too often you will have survivors who don't pay attention to their surrounding or completely oblivious to the tank's position . They linger around in open areas susceptible to incap objects and doesn't stay under cover from the tank throwing rocks at them. A good leader will issue commands to keep them back in line, to reaffirm their focus to the tank but this important aspect is severely lacked in our community. A lot of us expect the better of each other or expecting the other players to know better. Only when things go down south for the survivors, they start complaning "why are you guys inside?" which offers no input at all. What we do have is a few vocal players but even then they are just passive at most. Edited August 31, 2014 by Jerkoff 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKap August 30, 2014 Share JKap Member August 30, 2014 Tl;dr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MurderinClony August 31, 2014 Author Share MurderinClony Member August 31, 2014 Respectfully, I must refute you sir. Eight to ten seconds is still somewhat exaggerated. You are assuming a majority of the team is actively shooting, but more importantly, hitting the tank consistently for all 8 seconds. There are only a few areas where the tank is lined up perfectly and without any cover for this to happen. I do not exaggerate, with tier 1 weapons in L4D1 you can kill a tank in 15 seconds. With tier 2 weapons even faster, closer to 10 seconds, why would the transition to the second game where the Tank has all the same properties as the first, change that fact. My statement about the Left 4 Dead 2 Tank in this server is not exaggerate, with the higher tier weapons and even more players shooting, logic states that it should die faster and it does, a good 5 - 7 seconds faster. "i will devour you." Im still waiting for someone to point out the oddity in my post, then I will know you guys fully read it :3 creepy as hell. man... how come you guys didnt notice it??? We have a winner Tl;dr So butthurt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lookback August 31, 2014 Share Lookback Member August 31, 2014 Light tank Run away Let him play whack-- mole Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinbanks August 31, 2014 Share robinbanks Member August 31, 2014 (edited) The tank has good days and bad days, sure, and using that as a reason to call stacked teams is a bit of a stretch, but I do believe you are missing something here. It is when one team has considerably more FPS gods (team A) than the other team(team B ). In that situation, team A's survivor play will literally shut down team B's SI play, making it nearly impossible to even rack up the points needed to buy a heal for the tank, let alone buying it. There is no way to generate any form of offence when the SIs are getting popped merely 2-3 seconds after spawning. You might counter by saying some campaigns have scripted tanks, and that does allow team B a chance to get a lucky car hit. However, the survivors will be alerted long before the scripted tanks will spawn, which often proves to be enough to give team A's an edge to win the tank fight. What I'm trying to say here is that while it is indeed nonsense to call stacked teams based on how tanks perform, stacked teams do exist. Edited August 31, 2014 by robinbanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackieChan August 31, 2014 Share JackieChan GC Alumni August 31, 2014 Also, note that the Tank on our servers is very slightly faster than Survivors (vanilla Tanks are slower than Survivors), don't slow down as much from getting shot at (vanilla Tanks slow to a crawl under gunfire), and have a further punch reach than vanilla settings (vanilla Tanks have a noticeably shorter reach). Just my way of balancing things out for 10v10 and it's been like this for a long time now (back when Nightling used to play L4D2 on a regular basis). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowflake August 31, 2014 Share Snowflake Member August 31, 2014 Does anyone know how much a punch is? Incapping a player? Killing a player is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swatfishy August 31, 2014 Share swatfishy Member August 31, 2014 Does anyone know how much a punch is? Incapping a player? Killing a player is? you mean points per punch for tank? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowflake August 31, 2014 Share Snowflake Member August 31, 2014 yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerkoff August 31, 2014 Share Jerkoff Member August 31, 2014 (edited) 25 damage per punch = 1 point 25 damage rock throw = 1 point Incapping a player = 3 points Killing a player = 5 points Edited August 31, 2014 by Jerkoff 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MurderinClony August 31, 2014 Author Share MurderinClony Member August 31, 2014 (edited) Incorrect Jerky 24 damage per punch = 1.2 or 1.4 points 24 damage rock throw = 1.2 or 1.4 points Edited August 31, 2014 by MurderinClony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scubiedoobie August 31, 2014 Share scubiedoobie Member August 31, 2014 i need a guide on how to effectively use tank im still practicing how to hit cars in a straight angle, curved angle, etc etc and how to curve rocks and stuff help pm scubiedoobie if u wanna tutor me 1on1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pumpernickel August 31, 2014 Share Pumpernickel Member August 31, 2014 YouTube, dude. There's a tutorial on curve throwing among other things by HS TOP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swatfishy August 31, 2014 Share swatfishy Member August 31, 2014 Incorrect Jerky 24 damage per punch = 1.2 or 1.4 points 24 damage rock throw = 1.2 or 1.4 points yea i think its 1.2, i remember seeing "damage done 3.60 points" so presumably 3 hits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garychios September 1, 2014 Share Garychios Member September 1, 2014 Also, note that the Tank on our servers is very slightly faster than Survivors (vanilla Tanks are slower than Survivors), don't slow down as much from getting shot at (vanilla Tanks slow to a crawl under gunfire), and have a further punch reach than vanilla settings (vanilla Tanks have a noticeably shorter reach). Just my way of balancing things out for 10v10 and it's been like this for a long time now (back when Nightling used to play L4D2 on a regular basis). Can we make the tank faster when on fire? That will make even more fun. As you can use the option as tank to chase survivors faster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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