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Deadstop Training and Practice Not Allowed


Johnny

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If you were covering someone I'd see the benefit of deadstopping Hunters raining down upon you, but the situation shown above, players were needlessly standing out in the open TO BECOME a target for Hunter pounces.  They weren't in any unpreventable danger, they left the stage to partake in deadstop practice.  I'm all for practicing techniques in the game, but I would rather see people practice deadstopping on their own time/private server instead of on ours.

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Hello, I typically don't bother with arguing against any new rules or changes to the server because there is usually a reason for it and it doesn't typically bother me while i play the game. But this new rule against "practicing" deadstopping is something I find completely ridiculous. Banning someone for "practicing" deadstopping is like banning someone because they are new to L4D2. As someone who is guilty of doing this in the past I see no reason to ban people for doing it. With all the gamers on gc who have come to use hunters as their primary way to gain points its pretty common for people see a high pounce or to see "Sky Diver" appear at the bottom left. Of all the times that i have purposely tried to get hunters to attack me because i wanted to deadstop them, I have never heard anybody complain about me standing still or getting pounced out in the open. With all the hunter players on the server most people don't even really react to getting high pounced or to seeing a high pounce. It's as common as someone seeing the spitter achievement or the boomer achievement. Seeing this doesn't mean the round is automatically over. On most finales it is pretty difficult for one or even two tanks to wipe even with a heal because the maps are so open. Using one bile bomb can attract all the survivors to shoot at it because it points out where the tank is and makes people want to shoot at it causing the tank to die quickly or to flee in order to live. It takes a lot of teamwork or a very smart tank who uses cover and hittables to win. Along with that, the only time that I or other players I know have tried "practicing" is when the game is already won or has already been lost. We see no point to put all of our effort into the round to try and survive, because there is nothing we can do. Now you can argue against that by asking about the players who do still want to try and attempt to make it to the end and survive. But if that's the case then why have charger dodge ball? What about the players who don't want to do that and would rather play the finale normally? That's why there are vote skips. When the scroes are to the point where the toher team has no chance of making a comeback, the admins put up a vote of whether to skip the entire finale or to play it out. The reason that I and I assume other players do this is because its something that we can do on certain maps that is fun and challenging when the game is already at the point where there can be no victory. Now if you still see this as a dumb and useless thing that has no benefit to the team or the game in any way then why let certain people rocket jockey into the middle of 5 survivors just to jockey one person for 1-2 seconds or let people use only smoker and rocket in to insta smoke someone for a second? Those tactics have no benefit to the team and have no benefit to yourself as well because you only get like 1-2 points each time(assuming that you don't fail) meaning that you would have to attack that way almost more than 20 times just get enough points for a tank. I see people play like this all the time and it kinda bugs me, but i don't mention anything because its fun for them to play that way and it gives them something to do that they like to do. Now this new rule isn't going to keep me from playing on the servers ever again but I still find it to be a ridiculous and unnecessary rule to put into place because a couple of players got bothered by it. And if this post has anything to show then its that I only see admins that support this rule. I want to see if any regulars or members actually support this in the same way that you do.

Edited by Deadlock
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Oh and another side note, calling it griefing is incorrect. If we were griefing then we would just be standing out there not even trying to do anything to not get hit by the hunters or other infected. WE are trying to do something to fight back, we are trying to deadstop. We may not always get the deadstop, but we wouldn't be out there doing it if we weren't confident in ourselves to at least deadstop a few or a majority of the hunters. We aren't purposely trying to kill the team, we are just trying to have some fun.

Edited by Deadlock
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Oh and another side note, calling it griefing is incorrect. If we were griefing then we would just be standing out there not even trying to do anything to not get hit by the hunters or other infected. WE are trying to do something to fight back, we are trying to deadstop. We may not always get the deadstop, but we wouldn't be out there doing it if we weren't confident in ourselves to at least deadstop a few or a majority of the hunters. We aren't purposely trying to kill the team, we are just trying to have some fun.

How about this, do not put yourself in the situation to begin with. Nothing can happen without a catalyst, no? If you put yourself out there obviously hunters are going to try and pounce you to get points. 

You cannot get Sky Diver if there is no one to pounce, yet you say you prevent them from getting it or are trying to prevent them from getting it by putting yourself out there? Don't go out there, and they will never get it, its very simple. Rather than "Try to deadstop," because no one is perfect and will miss sometime, how about never giving them a chance to pounce by removing yourself from the line of fire.

 

And lets be honest here, you are not trying to do anything to help the team, speaking from a personal level, even though I do not consider myself among the top players, these kinds of actions are to "show off," they are only hidden behind the lies of "Oh, I am helping my team." And you're argument about doing something when nothing would originally happen makes this point even more evident.

 

And by the way Deadlock:

 

I support this rule.

 

So here is one member that does.

Edited by MurderinClony
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I never said I was helping the team by doing these actions. I said specifically that i was doing this for fun. I don't care about showing off to other people that i can do it. I'm simply against the notion of banning someone and calling it griefing when its just a few people wanting to do something different than the usual running around protecting teammates and doing their best to survive the finale. Like many other people on the server i have over 2,000 hours in this game. Sometimes I get bored of doing the same routine over and over in every game and I want to try something different. 

 

 

 

Oh and another side note, calling it griefing is incorrect. If we were griefing then we would just be standing out there not even trying to do anything to not get hit by the hunters or other infected. WE are trying to do something to fight back, we are trying to deadstop. We may not always get the deadstop, but we wouldn't be out there doing it if we weren't confident in ourselves to at least deadstop a few or a majority of the hunters. We aren't purposely trying to kill the team, we are just trying to have some fun.

How about this, do not put yourself in the situation to begin with. Nothing can happen without a catalyst, no? If you put yourself out there obviously hunters are going to try and pounce you to get points. 

You cannot get Sky Diver if there is no one to pounce, yet you say you prevent them from getting it or are trying to prevent them from getting it by putting yourself out there? Don't go out there, and they will never get it, its very simple. Rather than "Try to deadstop," because no one is perfect and will miss sometime, how about never giving them a chance to pounce by removing yourself from the line of fire.

 

The purpose of me and other people doing is for the hunters to attack me. If they do not want to go for me then that is their decision. I'm not putting myself out there as a target so i can keep them from getting "Sky Diver" , I'm doing it because its something I find fun and its different than running around in a finale that is probably pretty boring considering most finales are rather easy.

 

Anyway if you support it then that's fine, by all means support it. I just find it unnecessary to ban someone over something as silly and harmless as this.

Edited by Deadlock
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The purpose of me and other people doing is for the hunters to attack me. If they do not want to go for me then that is their decision. I'm not putting myself out there as a target so i can keep them from getting "Sky Diver" , I'm doing it because its something I find fun and its different than running around in a finale that is probably pretty boring considering most finales are rather easy.

 

So, what happens when you fail, and you get pounced, by accident, even though you were trying to deadstop? Your "fun" turns into a possible chain session for hunters. Now the enemy team may or may not have a tank. This tank may or may not be smart, and your "fun" session turns into a possibility of your team being wiped. I am not saying this server is a killjoy by all means, but there are plenty of other ways to have "fun" on this server that is out of the ordinary but still within reasonable means of the rules, that does not grant the infected team multitudes of points.

 

But I will humor you in your "fun" idea.

Lets say I was having so much fun that night and tons of comments were being thrown back and forth. I am in a steam chat with my buddies and for the sake of "fun" I jump off and suicide in the water. Everyone in the chat bursts out in laughter. Now, that was hilarious to all of us in the chat. For us, it was "fun." For everyone else, what does it look like?

 

You sitting out there having "fun" is hindering your team by giving the other team points

Me, hypothetically speaking, having "fun" at the bottom of the water is hindering my team by offsetting the survivor to infected ratio.

 

You might say, "That's not a valid comparison," but why not?

I had "fun," you had "fun," we both had "fun." And in both of our "fun" cases, we helped out the enemy team. That is why I believe they are implementing this rule, and I, for one, approve.

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I support this rule.

 

I think to try and compare it to new players, people shopping, holding spitters, or saying soon we'll ban for missing chargers is silly.

 

When members (long time players) the more "pro" seasoned players decide to actively take themselves and put themselves in a situation where you know a lot of points can be earned by infected is selfish and not considerate of the other players on your team.

 

It's no different than charger dodgeball. Sure it can be fun, but almost everyone ends up dying or the imfected rack up points, because you in a sense want to show off.

 

It's not a tough rule to follow. If your teammates or an admin say "hey please don't stand out in the open and you just keep doing or or a simpler solution is just don't stand out in the open.

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Not so long ago, I got 4 high pounces on someone practicing deadstop.  lucky for my team I had a few heals and killed everone using the forklift and we won.

 

That upset a few people.   This situation is seriously griefing your team.

 

If you're bored with the game, go away and do something different, do not spoil the game for your own selfish need.

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If the game is over should just do vote skip, a lot of admins refuse to do skip votes because technically it is winnable even though the other team only needs to step outside the saferoom.  This is why people do stuff like this, i.e i got banned for charger griefing after an admin refused to put up skip vote for a 1000 point game.  I see this as being no different, I think if its really loopsided should just let people do this type of stuff, if its close then yea ban them.

 

edit:I think Johnny is talking about skipping in his video although I can't really hear him.

Edited by VivaLaBrandon
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Vote skips are fine. They're better off being available at the start of finales. If there is ANY chance that the game is going to be unwinnable for the losing team, then it will be great to have a skip vote at the very beginning of the finale. Otherwise, it feels like playing the finale is a waste of time if the vote passes by the time the second round starts.

 

Edit: I'm not sure if we can get skip votes if there are players that don't want to play a finale, such as the Concert, because they are bored by it.

Edited by Carlos
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(edited)
If the game is over should just do vote skip, a lot of admins refuse to do skip votes because technically it is winnable even though the other team only needs to step outside the saferoom.  This is why people do stuff like this, i.e i got banned for charger griefing after an admin refused to put up skip vote for a 1000 point game.  I see this as being no different, I think if its really loopsided should just let people do this type of stuff, if its close then yea ban them.  

 

 

Just so you guys are clear, admins should be following the skipping protocols, which basically states voteskip for finales when BOTH of these conditions are met - it's unwinnable AND the LOSING team wants to skip.  If any admin isn't following the rules, discuss it with a BM.

 

Anyways, you and Carlos (and many others) made some valid points about the skipping rules and I agree.  I am getting it amended as we speak.  

 

Edit: I will lift the ban on Gandalf as a gesture of good faith that Gandalf didn't intend to grief and he may or may not have known of the rule.  However, I just want to be clear on this: if an admin asks you to stop doing something, you need to comply.  Do not argue or discuss it on the server.  If you feel the admin is wrong, demo and report it on the server or discuss it with a BM.

Edited by MeJohnny
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Rule is sensible, but is kind of slippery. Why not ban people for shooting the boomer on the DC elevator? I'm sure there's plenty of situations where you could argue for the survivor feeding the enemy team.

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Let's not get bogged down with other issues here - we are talking dead-stopping hunters :  we know the consequences of failure - person dies, infected get untold points for tanks and heals.

 

If people want to dead-stop, and the consensus is yes, I would suggest - don't send the dead-stopper points, don't pick them up or heal and don't defib as they will probably just do the same thing. 

 

On another issue with hunters, I've seen people just bounce around for an entire map without doing anything - STOP  IT.

Edited by MPG1770
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Regardless of being a member or an admin I'm for this. To those who know what they're doing, you know what you're doing. It's for kicks anyways but it immediately tells everyone else, you stopped trying. No matter how competitive you are, we all still have fun keeping it like that, so don't spoil it for others. If it's boring, just leave the game. Many of the people I see who find this a dumb thing to make an issue on GC. You're all good players, other players look up to you. When you start playing like what this entire thread's about. They lose hope in trying as well because, their top player is just fooling around now, why bother to try.

 

The whole parts about shooting the boomers on teammates. That's expected, it's instinct to shoot anything as a survivor, we even shoot through each other just to get kills and make the first guy all shaky. Just a thought, maybe there could be something done to if you did pop a boomer and it affected your teammates, you would get a little consequence, either some lost pts or some lost of HP.

 

The missing charger part is pretty silly, kind of disappointed on that lol, same with the flying jockey. I tend to either fly with a charger or a jockey all for the sake of the team. As a distraction for the bigger picture. For someone more capable than me to get the points needed so we can stop the other crew.

 

When you get very good, you tend to find other things to entertain yourself while ingame but this one is entertainment at the cost of your team and it's not something I'd like to see us doing.

 

I'd like to end my post by saying this though. Be the kind of seasoned member on GC that you would have wanted to meet when you first started playing GC.

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On another issue with hunters, I've seen people just bounce around for an entire map without doing anything - STOP  IT.
 

 

i've done that, not for an entire map, but i try to do it for as long as i can to be a distraction, litle less than half of the time i distract people long enough for someone to get a boom on the sketters. the other half i get AWP'd before my fith jump.

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Again remember, you can dead stop all you want.  The rule is not stopping deadstopping.  Just like it is not stopping shooting a boomer or not spitting and dying.  If you are covering your team as they are moving through hunter areas and you are shooting them and/or deadstopping them, no one said that is a problem.  If you are deadstopping a hunter because you are protecting someone that is down, makes sense.  If you are reloading, etc.   We are talking about a specific situation...  on a finale where people purposely spend the entire round in the most obvious and vulnerable pounce areas and don't even try to ever shoot the hunters.  sure they might dead stop a few, but if they are letting everyone earn enough points to get tanks, that is not fair to people on either team.  They are not helping their team in any way possible.  The are purposely not helping their team.  they are purposely harming it.

 

And remember...if you are bored with the finale, just leave.  If you want to mess up your team, go to another server and do it.

 

If you want to discuss the rules on skipping finales, we can always do that.  I hate the finale of carnival.  I rarely stay for it.  But I also follow our admin rules, so I only call a skip vote when we are allowed to.  All of L4D2 rules are always open to change, if people want to discuss them.

 

We can keep discussing this rule on dead stopping, but please keep it in perspective.  Again we are not talking about not being able to dead stop.  We are talking about sitting in the open for an entire round, trying to be pounced for the purpose of learning deadstopping or showing off dead stopping.  In either situation, there is no benefit to the team and only a detriment.

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On another issue with hunters, I've seen people just bounce around for an entire map without doing anything - STOP  IT.

 

No deadstopping and now no bouncing around in the map using hunter? What's next?

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^ Peanut just said that the rule isn't dead stopping. It is purposely standing out in a popular open area trying to dead stop hunters, without even trying to shoot them, that's the issue :P

Edited by Carlos
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On another issue with hunters, I've seen people just bounce around for an entire map without doing anything - STOP  IT.

 

No deadstopping and now no bouncing around in the map using hunter? What's next?

 

 

There is a difference in going for a pounce on a survivor by going high up and wall to pounce, and bouncing back and forth on a wall waiting for survivors to get within your pounce range. The latter just wastes valuable time you could have been using to keep them back in that area or hell, maybe even have pushed them back further, lessening their progression as well.

This may not always be true, but "inactivity" is a form of griefing too.

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^

Yes inactivity wastes time. But we cannot control on how other people play. If someone wants to use hunter and missed the pounce, it's his decision to run away (bouncing around?) and get to the high ground or just suicide.

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On another issue with hunters, I've seen people just bounce around for an entire map without doing anything - STOP  IT.

 

No deadstopping and now no bouncing around in the map using hunter? What's next?

 

 

 

Don't be facetious - we know you're not stupid - read the statement - I'm not going to name names, but a member I specced - bounced around with a hunter for an entire map, doing absolutely nothing whatsoever.

 

Do you think that is helpful?    But let's not digress - as Peanut says - if you're doing it purposely, then, yes, it's griefing your team. 

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At what point is considered griefing? the way this is going anyone standing still in open area will be considered griefing because he got pounced by the few that can jump around the map.

If you're guarding/protecting teammates or yourself while trudging through a level from high pounces and you're deadstopping/skeeting, fine.  Go nuts.  Absolutely nothing wrong with that.

If you're doing it just for the sake of doing it like standing out in the open, not even bothering to move to cover, purposely becoming a target for the sake of your own entertainment just to practice it, that's where the line would have to be drawn.

 

Like Peanut said, deadstopping is fine.  It's an acquired skill that takes a lot to master.  If you're not putting it to use to benefit your team like I made in the first example, then it's not fine.  To me, the line on whether it's fine or not is pretty defined.  If you can come up with examples on if it's okay to do so or not, please ask.  I'd be happy to make sure we're all on the same page if people are still unsure.

 

...I would also rather not see people convince their whole team to partake in deadstopping either then argue the fact that they were all protecting each other.  That's like trying to prod a tiger and seeing how long it takes before it decides to maul you.  It won't end well.

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What about people simply standing in the open admiring the view but getting pounced, you could argue they wanted to try deadstopping and failed or were just standing there for no reason at all too.

 

Also, I want to know if admins are obligated to put up a skip vote if people ask for it regardless of the score.

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