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For those who are Too Good for L4D2


Deadlock

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He was given an opportunity to defend himself and that defense was not sufficient.
 

Hold on, when was i given this time to defend myself? When I first realized i was banned, I came to the forums and asked to speak to an admin about it. Johnny then posted saying that he had clear evidence that I was using cheats and told me that I the option to appeal to the ban by talking about it on the forums. I then said that i would like to appeal, whether it be on the forums or privately through steam, and waited. I was then informed days later that the admins had "discussed it over" and that my ban would permanently stay. I was not given any chance to defend myself. I was not told what hacks I was accused of using, i was not allowed to see any of the demos that you so carefully keep hidden. I couldn't defend myself because i was given no information on the incident whatsoever. And instead of allowing me to defend myself on that post, it was locked and the discussion was ended. So i did what i thought was logical and fair. I made a post informing people about my playstyle, my experience in games such as this and my reasoning for doing albeit questionable things in the eyes of others. The discussion reached a board member and they said they would review the evidence and  get back to me about it. But in no way was I given an actual chance to defend myself before being permanently banned.

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@zero, have you ever watched the movie 12 angry men? 1 person out of 12 believed that a person was innocent, the other 11 were ready to say that the person was guilty, only through constant talking and persuasion and bringing in logical evidence and facts, did they all end up agreeing that LOGICALLY, the person was not guilty. Sentencing someone for a murder he did not commit. that was greater than 90% of people that wanted to convict the kid.

Now you say 90% is enough for a ban? no. I want 100%, if you truly feel that he hacks, give 100% that is your job as an admin. Not to simply shrug it off, and say meh, 90% is good enough lets ban him. Well, im 90% through your heart surgery, we can end it here. You'll be alright. Slavery is 90% removed, that's good enough. right? NO. 

 

You say there needs to be someone standing over his shoulder? HELLLOOOOOOO, has he not offered to LITERALLY PUT A VIDEO CAMERA OVER HIS SHOULDER TO SEE EVERYTHING. 

 

*sigh*, I apologize for my rudeness in my posts, but this is not fair. PERIOD. 

 
Not sure if you know this k1llz, but even the US justice system can reject all future court filing from an individual. Just looking up Jack Thompson. So how can you call us prejudice? I don't want in on these pointless argument, but your attitude doesn't solve anything. 
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@everyone, fyi im not racist. that is simply what it sounds like. Sorry. Not giving someone a chance, is just wrong. Saying that just because you believe this, it should be like this. is wrong. 

 

Guys... I'm not racist but let's compare someone being banned from a videogame to someone spending their entire life forced to work to death

 

@zero, have you ever watched the movie 12 angry men? 1 person out of 12 believed that a person was innocent, the other 11 were ready to say that the person was guilty, only through constant talking and persuasion and bringing in logical evidence and facts, did they all end up agreeing that LOGICALLY, the person was not guilty. Sentencing someone for a murder he did not commit. that was greater than 90% of people that wanted to convict the kid.

Now you say 90% is enough for a ban? no. I want 100%, if you truly feel that he hacks, give 100% that is your job as an admin. Not to simply shrug it off, and say meh, 90% is good enough lets ban him. Well, im 90% through your heart surgery, we can end it here. You'll be alright. Slavery is 90% removed, that's good enough. right? NO. 

 

You say there needs to be someone standing over his shoulder? HELLLOOOOOOO, has he not offered to LITERALLY PUT A VIDEO CAMERA OVER HIS SHOULDER TO SEE EVERYTHING. 

 

*sigh*, I apologize for my rudeness in my posts, but this is not fair. PERIOD. 

 

I don't want a video over his shoulder. I want his browsing history for the last 7 years, the login to all of his emails. and a full hdd scan every time he plays. THAT will convince me

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@zero, its this simple, we brought african americans to america to be slaves, why should they get freedom, end of discussion.

 

First of all we brought slaves from everywhere]

 

We brought slaves from Jamaica? Australia? India, China, Canada, Mexico, etc? I mean I could try to go and list everywhere but that ain't gonna happen.

Are you talking simply out of anger without any factual evidence of this. I want to see proof of us literally bringing slaves from "everywhere" into America. And remember, provide EVIDENCE. 

And no turbo, I am responding to you like an adult. Providing logical reasoning, I am trying to talk to you like a person. We are having a discussion. Saying that this issue is dealt with and trying to swipe it under the rug. That is messed up, and THAT is childish. Wanting something to go away just because you don't want to deal with it.

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Deadlock has full control over his computer and his stream. How hard would it be to turn off hacks or assistance, and this is all hypothetical for I have no evidence that he does or doesn't but for the sake of this post and recent events I am pretending that he does, and play like a normal player for the duration of his stream? It wouldn't be hard at all. Actions are different when you know you are being watched as opposed to when you don't know you are being watched. When you know you are being watched, you will act according to what they want to see. When you do not know, or get careless and forget that someone is always watching and screw up, that evidence is more powerful than any other.

 

Like I said before, the only way he could prove his innocence would be for an admin and or board member to physically go to deadlock's house, in person, meeting them face to face, give them a polygraph test, and even those are not hard to fake, and then search his computer. But like I also said before, this kind of event would have to be arranged, and Deadlock would know when they would come. How hard would it be for him to quickly remove all traces of evidence on his computer?

 

I am simply playing the Devil's advocate here, stating the obvious, or what should be obvious, arguments.

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This isn't a movie, he is not on trial for murder, and this is not a court of law.  We have video evidence.  It is deadlock playing.  A consensus was reached.  He has made his case in forums 2 more times than was needed.  It was decided that the ban stays.  Now please stop repeating your same argument so I can stop repeating my same response.  If you have something new that has not been said a hundred times already then please post that.

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I have stated several things that are new, you simply keep stating the same old simple responses. 


Prior to his very first response, I provided multiple LOGICAL arguments, all you have done is absolutely nothing aside from saying, matter is closed, we believe he cheats. 


other people have also provided logical reasoning, yet your stance has been the same throughout.

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He was given an opportunity to defend himself and that defense was not sufficient.
 

Hold on, when was i given this time to defend myself? When I first realized i was banned, I came to the forums and asked to speak to an admin about it. Johnny then posted saying that he had clear evidence that I was using cheats and told me that I the option to appeal to the ban by talking about it on the forums. I then said that i would like to appeal, whether it be on the forums or privately through steam, and waited. I was then informed days later that the admins had "discussed it over" and that my ban would permanently stay. I was not given any chance to defend myself. I was not told what hacks I was accused of using, i was not allowed to see any of the demos that you so carefully keep hidden. I couldn't defend myself because i was given no information on the incident whatsoever. And instead of allowing me to defend myself on that post, it was locked and the discussion was ended. So i did what i thought was logical and fair. I made a post informing people about my playstyle, my experience in games such as this and my reasoning for doing albeit questionable things in the eyes of others. The discussion reached a board member and they said they would review the evidence and  get back to me about it. But in no way was I given an actual chance to defend myself before being permanently banned.

 

 

You have attempted to plea your case in at least 3 forum posts.  You have contacted multiple admins, board members, and members to plead your innocence.  The evidence has been gone over and discussed many times and a consensus was reached.  We keep repeating the same things over and over and it is getting us nowhere.  

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this has been fun. really. The logic in play here is:

 

admins: We have (live) video evidence of deadlock cheating. we have multiple months of demos we have argued over, disproved, and continued to argue over until I saw something indisputable and put an end to it

 

kills/deadlock: but wait! you haven't watched him play live! you guys suck!

 

In all seriousness dudes. No matter what you say he won't be unbanned. The only thing that will get him unbanned is me reviewing the evidence and coming to a different conclusion OR - admins / other board members giving enough of a poop to continue the discussion on it. So as I mentioned before - I am busy - and I won't have time to look at evidence if people keep bringin up idiotic points

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I have stated several things that are new, you simply keep stating the same old simple responses. 

Prior to his very first response, I provided multiple LOGICAL arguments, all you have done is absolutely nothing aside from saying, matter is closed, we believe he cheats. 

other people have also provided logical reasoning, yet your stance has been the same throughout.

 

With what? By stating pointless reference to slavery and 12 Angry Men that has nothing to prove of his innocence or that he is so skill that he can predict where the other team will spawn

Edited by Protomanx13
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Don't put words in my mouth I haven't said, I haven't said that. And in all seriousness, I thought you were removing yourself from this matter. and yet here you are. 

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Well great discussion. It's crazy how deadlock can access killz' computer to defend himself. Basically we have come to the same points as the last 4 conversations as I outline in my last post. If you need more clarification I'd be happy to write an official note and get it signed by all the board members in person. Just give me a year

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(edited)

@Clony "Deadlock has full control over his computer and his stream. How hard would it be to turn off hacks or assistance"

 

This is true, I have full control over my computer and what i do with it and my games, but i am willing to stream and provide sufficient evidence to prove that i am not using any form of assistance while playing and still be able to provide the same results seen in these demos. 

 

@zero, why do you think so many posts were created. Every time a logical argument was stated in my defense, an admin decided to close the topic because they didn't want to deal with the problem and just forget about it. 

 

@crasx, how about this, you stated that for a majority of the demos you and the other admins decided that it was just "luck" and that it was non conclusive. Up until one was shown to you recently that made you think that some form of assistance was being used. How about just making a clip of that moment like the one that Turbo mentioned that really made you think? You can keep whoever made the demo out it and leave out any tools that you use and just post that moment for people to see. Because like Shafee Said...

 

"This is going to sound harsh, but I certainly believe some (if not most) admins are incapable of judging what a lot of skilled players do. Especially if some of them hate people who use hunters, you simply cannot trust their judgement. In fact, I think a lot of admins don't have adequate judgement skills. Look, the reality is the admins are hard workers at what they do, some have 15k hours in L4D2, other admins you see online 24/7. This means jack for this situation, nonetheless. The situation at hand calls for more substantial discussion and review (NOT exclusively by admins, but by members of high skill too)."

 

I'd bet that many cheaters that you've watched demos of were probably quite obvious and did very clear things that suggested they were cheating. But for me it took you guys a long time to finally decide i was cheating. How about letting high skilled players with an unbiased opinion watch the demo. Nothing will be leaked and whoever made the demo will remain anonymous. I'm sure that there is a very easy way of doing this as its 2016 and many things are possible involving videos.

Edited by Deadlock
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Please don't take this personally Deadlock, because I have never had a problem with you personally, but we have discussed this over and over and everyone keeps repeating themselves and it's not getting anyone anywhere.  There was a thorough review.  It has been discussed over and over and a decision was made.  At this point we are all just talking in circles. Admins didn't close the topic because they didn't want to deal with it.  They closed the topics because they did deal with it and the matter is closed.  We will not be sharing video footage or any other tools, because it could be used to avoid detection in the future.

Edited by zero0
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(edited)
Please don't take this personally Deadlock, because I have never had a problem with you personally, but we have discussed this over and over and everyone keeps repeating themselves and it's not getting anyone anywhere

 

There wouldn't be a need to repeat ourselves if you guys had just given clear answers to the questions we asked. It took me having to pm crasx to finally get an answer as to what cheat you thought i was using because everyone else decided to avoid answering the question. And even when i did pm crasx he still didn't give me a clear answer. All i got was my crosshair placement was fishy...like what? When i further asked him what he meant by that he continued to avoid the question. This problem could've been solved a long time ago but all these secrets about the demos and unwillingness to show them just keep making it suspicious. 

 

 

 

 We will not be sharing video footage or any other tools, because it could be used to avoid detection in the future, and that's the only reason it is not forthcoming.

 

I didn't ask to show the tools, I simply asked to show the clip of what it was that made crasx and the other ones fully commit to believing I was hacking, nothing else. You don't need to show anything else. It would basically be just like a youtube clip just like the ones johnny posts all the time, and you could block out the place where it shows who's name it was that was recording. It's a very simple thing to do.

Edited by Deadlock
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Ok, we are talking in circles again.  It has been said multiple times we are not providing clips, to ensure the next person will know they shouldn't do "that".  The reasons we are not going into further explanations about cross hair placement etc. is for the same reason.  To protect what we are "looking" for.  I'm sorry you don't like that answer, but from our prospective it's important to keep that information close to our chest.  

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(edited)

In that case you could claim that anyone on the server has that same fishy crosshair placement and ban them. Anyone could easily be banned for that same reason and you could just not show the evidence because you believe it should stay a secret? I also stated to let HIGH SKILL players watch the demo, not public for everyone to see. Let people who you know or truly believe not to be cheaters view the demo and ask for their opinion. 

Edited by Deadlock
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Deadlock, with all due respect, that is what has happened and it was the consensus of the board and the other admins that some kind of exploit was being used.  No one is going deep into the specifics of it with you, because we want to protect our means of detection. Using your example with fishy crosshair placement, no not everyone does that, but someone using an exploit will, so if that person in your example was doing the EXACT same thing as a person with an exploit would do then one would assume that, that is what is happening.  You can't look like a duck, walk like a duck, and quack like a duck, and then b*tch because someone shoots you during duck season.  I had almost no input during the decision making on this, because to be honest I don't think my opinion counts on such matters much.  I am obviously more irritated by the constant bombardment the forums have been subjected to repeatedly and I just don't know how many times we have to keep saying the same thing.  The board and admins reviewed all information, took your pleas of innocence into consideration, and made a decision.

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