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Nerf the hunter


zero0

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so much going on here, i just want to add that everyone has equal access to play as a hunter.

 

suggestion for the stand up motion, i usually counter or try to counter those who are standing up by covering them from something gonna pounce *involve teamwork*

Edited by lordbaby
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This conversation went exactly as i expected

 

- guys hunter is op!

- nuuu hunter is teh skillz much pro, 

- make it fair!

- you just crai because your ping is too hi. btw thx for calling me 1337 ^^

 

 

IMO we should do what csgo does. Add db metrics to the points system to see:

- version of buy plugin

- the number of spawns a si has

- number of 0 point spawns

- total points awarded

etc, then we just need to decide on what is fair and what the ratios should be. ie: (csgo) don't make the autosniper $2500 and give it a $800 kill reward

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etc, then we just need to decide on what is fair and what the ratios should be. ie: (csgo) don't make the autosniper $2500 and give it a $800 kill reward

 

Pouncing someone in a getup motion I 100% agree with the hunter being compared to the auto sniper. To pounce survivors that aren't stuck in animation, it wouldn't be fair to compare it to that. Especially the kai pounces on survivors. Whether they are boomed and unaware or aware and shooting at you. 

 

I thought Drag did a post on hunters? On that post if i recall correctly he had the percentages of various players hunter landings. I think i land somewhere between 27 - 33% of my dp's. Granted I don't normally wait for an easy target. I think the post had percentages from varying heights 25dp was by itself and 20 - 24 was it's own category. 

Edited by EliteGandalf
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 If someone  smokes someone for several seconds and gets 10 points and that smoker is killed and a subsequent smoker smokes someone for 1 second as the player is getting up, the subsequent smoker doesn't get 10 points too.

So you are saying a 1 second smoker should equal the same amount of points as a longer pull? 

 

What I am saying is a hunter should not get 12.5 points for a less than one second pounce on one person.

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if people think the system is in that big of a need for an adjustment, it may just need one.

putting up a poll for that might be a good idea.

 

also, i propose (if it can be done at all) to reduce the points obtained from a piggy back pounce by 1/3 (6.6 points instead of 10 for 25hp pounces)
or to considerably shorten up the getup animation from pounces.

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- there should be some sort of balance, for example, if the pounce point is nerf, the following damages by the hunter after the high pounce should be increase to make up the slight difference and reward the player for their hard work.  - you can activate this when it is a higher pounce, but not on regular pounce.

 

- rocketing and pouncing are a totally different story :ph34r:

 

- it's a team effort, not who is the fastest to land a tank wins type of game.

 

- the points are more like award for the pounce itself, not for the length of time to damage.. the damage following the pounce is rather low and slow

 

- i will say leave it has it is before there is a consensus (but  already lowered to /2.5, sounds big by the % difference); if i remember correctly it has been nerf down previously already., or juz those who are incap. 

 

- to be honest, i dont see too many skydiver going around all the time. it's base on map/sections, point hungry players gonna do whatever that put them in the best situation most of the time

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This whole discussion is about the amount of points you are getting for what you are actually doing.  You can get 12.5 points for a boomer if you can manage to boom 7 people over an attack that can last a few seconds.  You can get 12.5 smoke if you can sustain an attack on one person for several seconds, same with a jockey.  You can get 12.5 points for a spit lasting several seconds on several people and probably a couple of incaps in the middle of it all meanwhile players are moving out of the spit.  A hunter earns 12.5 point for an attack that lasts then a second on ONE person.  Many times by exploiting ceilings and walls that are out of bounds and not in the confines of normal map play.  No other class of SI can do that and it's an unbalanced advantage, to get a tank for four seconds of attack and by attacking only one player.  It's EXTREMELY stacked.  If your only argument to the contrary is going on about skill, with the hunter and how awesome it is, then what I am suggesting doesn't affect that at all.  You can still be a hunter all you want, I'am not suggesting we get rid of them or reduce their numbers.  It will not affect your game play one single bit.

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etc, then we just need to decide on what is fair and what the ratios should be. ie: (csgo) don't make the autosniper $2500 and give it a $800 kill reward

 

Pouncing someone in a getup motion I 100% agree with the hunter being compared to the auto sniper. To pounce survivors that aren't stuck in animation, it wouldn't be fair to compare it to that. Especially the kai pounces on survivors. Whether they are boomed and unaware or aware and shooting at you. 

 

I thought Drag did a post on hunters? On that post if i recall correctly he had the percentages of various players hunter landings. I think i land somewhere between 27 - 33% of my dp's. Granted I don't normally wait for an easy target. I think the post had percentages from varying heights 25dp was by itself and 20 - 24 was it's own category. 

 

 

I can land 100% of my attacks on 100% of the players lasting less than one second each and be nowhere near tank points.  You only have to land 4 on 10% of players for less than a second each and you have tank points.  This can potentially be done in a little over a minute from an attack on ONE PERSON (or four separate) , I mean without so much as a single incap and no other class has anything close to that potential.

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I agree with Zero0 on this one, most hunters just pounce the same person while they are stunned/incapped and get a ton of points for it. It would be nice if when you pounce a person first you get the points from it. But for the next person who pounces right after you immediately should get about half the points that you got, for example, a 24hp high pounce is 12.5pts, they should get around 6.5 for it, if they didn't wait a few seconds. I don't know if that would be possible to modify it that way, but it would be neat in my opinion.

So basically penalizing hunters going for damage and incaps... I don't understand this logic. 

 

 

I am not suggesting penalizing hunters, I am merely suggesting they are on par with every other class for the amount of work and length of attack they are doing.

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This whole discussion is about the amount of points you are getting for what you are actually doing.  You can get 12.5 points for a boomer if you can manage to boom 7 people over an attack that can last a few seconds.  You can get 12.5 smoke if you can sustain an attack on one person for several seconds, same with a jockey.  You can get 12.5 points for a spit lasting several seconds on several people and probably a couple of incaps in the middle of it all meanwhile players are moving out of the spit.  A hunter earns 12.5 point for an attack that lasts then a second on ONE person. 

What are you really saying here? Hunters should get less points because their attack is quicker than the others? They can still take up to a quarter of a survivors health away in that 1 second if done right. 

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can land 100% of my attacks on 100% of the players lasting less than one second each and be nowhere near tank points.

Jackie said that (loosely quoted), "I devised the points system based on the amount of skill it requires of the infected class." Every class has it's own way of amassing a lot of points. Joy rides, Smoking someone at a drop, Collateral charges and beatdowns, Spitting large groups of people. Hunters can do ground to ground pounces and get less than 1pt. for it. Realisticly everyone should be able to agree that climbing walls for kai pounces requires skill and practice (players have been told to practice else where, and i'm guessing they have done so or gotten better over time). Everyone can rocket and land some sort of attack, so there isn't much skill to be had in it. Rocket a boom and proxy/ boom 5+ people requires skill and good timing, but like everything else including hunter a little luck. Rocket a charger and land a collateral charge equal a lot of points, or simply spawning in on an unsuspecting separated survivor and beating on them requires simply a !heal bind @Carlos will reward infected with points. Rocketing jockey's for joyrides happens all the time. Rocketing a hunter or smoker are useless unless it's too an isolated survivor. 

 

When I read your post it just gives me the vibe that you (*this is going to get off topic but it directly relates to what is happening to the hunter*) would have the NBA make the Golden State Warriors 3pt makes count for less because the have taken the league by storm. (They broke the record of 72 - 10 set by Michael Jordans Bulls back in 1996). Or would you have Rafael Nadal and Roger Federer use smaller rackets because they were dominating the game of tennis for so long. Would you have Lionel Messi only use one leg to play soccer or make his goals count for half? Or would you have Peyton Mannings touchdown passes count for less. Changing the game because someone has gotten good at it isn't fair to the people that look to rise status. Is this not competitive versus.

 

What does all that mean? We didn't make the rules of the game. Some players simply want to be the best atleast that's what I assume. So hunter requiring the most skill to master and offering the biggest reward for ascertaining the skill of "high pounce" gave some players the push to try and achieve it. (*Kind of like max prestige in C.O.D. or Global Elite in CS:GO. The hunter is L4D2's version of gaining prestige*) Everyone (meaning most of the players that wanted to be the best) wanted to be like Deadlock, Abusement, and Clony and take to the skies and go for dp's. Sadly they found out how difficult it is. So they settled for the easier pounces.

 

Yes there is a glitch here chain pounces (otherwise known as pouncing someone stuck in animation) is the glitch. The intially hunter deserves the 12.5 any other hunter hitting the target in animation deserve less. As far as I'm concerned animation pounces could be worth just as much as an incap pounce maybe a small fraction more. Nerf'n the hunter is not neccessary. Just needs to be tweaked.

 

Besides, on other levels of Left 4 Dead 2 *in pubs/pugs* the team is blamed for not clearing *Common and *Special Infected off of players in animation, boomed, incapicitated, or otherwise in some sort of distress. Those were the basics taught to me when I was new. Clear and cover.

 

 

 

You only have to land 4 on 10% of players for less than a second each and you have tank points.  This can potentially be done in a little over a minute from an attack on ONE PERSON (or four separate) , I mean without so much as a single incap and no other class has anything close to that potential.

Predators target the weak. That holds true in the wild and in society. Protect those in need. If you know who they are looking for... Cover. As infected when there is a rusher you go for him, if someone lags too far behind you go for him. Why do you do this? It's a predatory reaction. (*primal*) If someone is new, in bad areas, and won't listen you have to cover them. It's what I'm doing when people say, "Gandalf stop fooling around/ baiting infected/etc." 

 

This is a pretty good depiction on what I walk into everytime I play. No I don't always win. Lol

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The intially hunter deserves the 12.5 any other hunter hitting the target in animation deserve less

 

 

As far as I'm concerned animation pounces could be worth just as much as an incap pounce maybe a small fraction more
 

wait, arent those the same? or did you skip a 'BUT' on that second line?

 

 

all i'm getting from this conversation is that we should nerf the hunter because it discourages teamplay and encourages arrogance.

...how?

piggybacking as hunters requires teamwork, hunters are good to quickly kill other people's incaps, getting easy 25hp pounces requires comunication betwen teammates (hold him there for me). hell, truly abusing the ladder in dead air requires half the team putting all their spawns on hunters to keep survivors from advancing.

 

either way, if theres not a compromise topic might need to be locked.

there seems to be some comunication noise betwen pro-nerf and anti-nerf people, because people are starting to repeat the same arguments over and over.

 

 

 

Deadlock Gandalf, Abusement, and Clony
 

 

ouch, too soon.

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What a useful comment there johnny.

 

You can nerf the hunter sure but it won't stop players from standing out in the open for no reason just waiting to get pounced which is what lead to this thread.

Blame the hunters not the players getting pounced 3-4 times if not more per chapter.

 

I for one am ok with the changes.

Edited by Vilkys
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Deadlock Gandalf, Abusement, and Clony
 

 

Nah. I will never be as good with the hunter as them.

 

 

all i'm getting from this conversation is that we should nerf the hunter because it discourages teamplay and encourages arrogance.

There hasn't been teamplay on GC in about 2years give or take.. It has been play for *Sky Diver for atleast a year now.

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Deadlock Gandalf, Abusement, and Clony
 

 

Nah. I will never be as good with the hunter as them.

 

 

all i'm getting from this conversation is that we should nerf the hunter because it discourages teamplay and encourages arrogance.

There hasn't been teamplay on GC in about 2years give or take.. It has been play for *Sky Diver for atleast a year now.

 

Yes it does crasx

 

 

Just the guys who are hunters

the only team work they have is ask their teammates  to buy unannounced or limit

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Isnt chain pounce considered teamwork?  Because, for me, it is a pretty good teamwork.

 

I'm still insisting that avoiding the pounces is easier that trying to do one.

 

Anyway, nerf is done, and i think it is ok, but is not going to do the hunters less seriously.

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Just the guys who are hunters the only team work they have is ask their teammates  to buy unannounced or limit

Lol, shamefully I will admit that is true. When I said teamwork doesn't really exist I didn't mean literally there isn't any teamwork. There are many instances of great hits by the team. Big team hits spread the wealth and makes it so the team kills the other team. Not necessarily on person carrying. Restructure point system to encourage teamplay. That sounds fair. Saying a kai pounce for 25 is not worth the points recieved meh we could go back and forth. It is however one of the more tricky feats to pull off, if not the most.

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Both sides have valid points, but the hunters are seriously OP by this point. I was against nerfing hunters up until about a year ago and I still kept my mouth shut because I have tried hunters, and I saw how much work it was and how hard it is to get good. I never wanted to devote the time to get good, because I don't have that kind of time plus the class was never interesting to me from the start. But guess what, that argument doesn't fly anymore - the how hard it is and how much work it is argument, implying people should be rewarded for their efforts for their skill and dedication.

 

And so you guys have rewarded, very generously, in fact. However, the community's overall skill has not matched the overall skill of the hunters. You guys have gotten very good at hunters by this point, but the community stays alive through the influx of new, and generally not-as-good players/members. Additionally, this is not a competitive server so many regulars also seem locked at some mediocre skill plateau and never seem to improve, even after a few thousand hours, and even though they have potential. So it's VERY EASY to get Sky Diver for a handful of players, i.e. tanks; 5 -6 hp's and you have a tank and a heal. You know what that means... Forget the tanks for a second and remember it can take ONE not-so-good player to wipe the team on our servers. So if you have 3+ "not-so-good" on one team versus 1+ elite hunter(s) = stacked teams all day. An elite survivor can only carry the team so far each round, but an elite hunter can make or break an entire game. In fact, admins balance teams by various criteria, including a huge one: how many hunters are on each team and how can I separate them. That really about sums up the hunter argument, when admins balance a STACKED team by separating the HUNTERS.

Speaking from personal experience, I have never seen an admin say, " Oh teams are stacked. Too many jockies on the other team and we have Carlos; it will be a bloodbath."

 

Now as far as the points redistribution for hunters, I think reducing by half would still be considered fair. "But think about how much effort and skill it takes to play hunter" Please read above. There's no other classes where one can do 3 attacks on a survivor and get a tank. There's no other classes where you do TEN attacks on survivors and get a tank, except maybe boomers, but they are way easier to shoot than hunters. There's no classes where you do FIFTEEN attacks on survivors and get a tank. Ok, maybe 15. But you get the point.

 

You don't need a revamp of the entire points structure for each class, too much balance issues and stuff I don't have time to get into here. Just cut the hunter points by 1/2 - 1/3, so it takes 6-7 max dp to get a tank. If you complain that's too much, how many smokes you think it generally takes to get a tank, or jockies, or charges, etc. Like zero said, now you have the chance to play hunters more.

Edited by MeJohnny
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I was against nerfing hunters up until about a year ago and I still kept my mouth shut because I have tried hunters, and I saw how much work it was and how hard it is to get good. I never wanted to devote the time to get good, because I don't have that kind of time plus the class was never interesting to me from the start. But guess what, that argument doesn't fly anymore - the how hard it is and how much work it is argument, implying people should be rewarded for their efforts for their skill and dedication.

 

 

 

the community's overall skill has not matched the overall skill of the hunters.

 

 

 

Additionally, this is not a competitive server so many regulars also seem locked at some mediocre skill plateau and never seem to improve, even after a few thousand hours, and even though they have potential.

 

This pretty much sums up this topic. Throughout the thread I have stated and others that the hunters are not the problem. I have asked multiple times "is this not a competitive server?" The ugly truth is simply that which I have quoted out of Johnny's post. It is not a competitive server. Players overall aren't very good.

 

Pouncing is not easy. You said it yourself, and even though you agree it's not easy those who are ok or good at it should be penalize with the hopes of increasing the chances of survival for survivors. Half the points of probably most used class for point farmers fine, but to say that nothing else should be taken into consideration is just bad math. Less tanks, lower amount of points earned maybe this will force more team work on the infected. It is my hopes that it would do so. Bile and fire still spammed at few, if any tanks because they are so cheap is still a deal breaker. You say take from the infected side as both teams don't play either side. 

 

Bottom line is if someone were to come out and say from the beginning of the thread "nerf the hunter because we have not the skill nor the desire to acquire the skill of pouncing, deadstopping, and skeeting" here. I'd say touche. No arguments from me, and please consider redistributing points to keep the game balanced. But an attempt and belittle the skill and deem over-powered simply because one cannot do it for one reason or another is appalling.

 

Make no mistake there are easy pounces:

1) Incaps

2 )Stealing a smoked survivor

3) Pouncing someone healing/ being healed in the open

4 )Player stuck in the get-up animation

5) Vanilla pounce

6) Kai pounce

7) Ceiling pounce

*1 - being the easiest to execute, 7 - the most difficult

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When a handful of players are playing a class that allows them to buy > 50% of the tanks, and end matches early > 50% of the time, something is definitely imbalanced. I don't have access to the raw analytics, but some numbers would be interesting to see... Someone pull up the numbers and see who gets skydivers, when they get it, and the outcome of the rounds when those players get skydivers + tanks. Now compare that to rounds without those same players. Guarantee you there is a Huge difference.

 

So what is a fair compromise? Nerf hunter points by 25% while buff all other classes points by 25%? I think that's a good start. The hunters still get a large chunk of points and we can see how the numbers affect the rest of the classes.

Edited by MeJohnny
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