-=SKArface=-

I just picked up Rather Ripped by Sonic Youth. . . . WOW! the album is fantastic. Reminds me of Daydream Nation. I have been fairly lukewarm on some of their more recent stuff (like goo and dirty, I haven't listened to sonic nurse yet) However, I really REALLY dig this album.

Dunno if anyone listens to Sonic Youth, but if you do it's worth checking this out.

Anyway, I said I wanted to get back to victimless, and I shall: The concept of what constitutes a victim is largely relative. If you kill me to take my possessions, then yeah, we have a clear victim of a violent crime, or rather an action which I can assure you was neither voluntary nor consensual from my point of view. What if you punch me? Not voluntary or consensual, but much preferred over murder no matter how much I might want to sue you for claiming lifetime damage to my face. Now what if you say something off-color to me. Do I have to accept that you can say whatever you please simply by entering a conversation? Can you threaten me? Blackmail me? Verbally abuse me? Tell me a dirty joke? Furthermore, can you tell a dirty joke in a room if I may overhear it? Before you throw this out as ridiculous, I would have you look at the lengthy legal history of sexual discrimination: Essentially, you expose yourself* to a potential victim merely by being sufficiently close to communication with a co-worker, even if you don't open your mouth.

Acts against person or property are, in my mind pretty clear cut, as you said. Assault is assault, theft is theft, murder is murder etc. Blackmail, which I am assuming is the act of "Pay me money or I expose something both private and embarrassing about you" would be neither voluntary or consensual. It also violates the target's right to privacy. For example, you could blackmail me about revealing that I secretly live with 200 cats, but you really couldn't blackmail me about the fact that I'm terrible at CS. Everyone pretty much knows that already.

Verbal abuse intrigues me in this context. In some cases, like randomly on the street, the target of the abuse can very easily walk away. While receiving the abuse is neither voluntary or consensual, I'm not entirely convinced the target has been "victimized." However, verbal abuse inside of a job or a marriage can be very different. Walking away is not always a trivial option (as is the verbal abuse on the street.) i.e. You have lost nothing if you walk away from a jerk on the street. If a jerk at your job impacts your ability to pursue your livelihood, they have denied your right to pursue happiness, in a not so trivial way.

Telling a dirty joke I don't think is a problem. What is a problem is when, after repeated requests to stop, you continue to tell dirty jokes (at least in the workplace). It sets up an environment where, again, your ability to pursue your livelihood is impacted.

Oh, and I always expose myself to my intended victims.

The whole notion of "what is a victim" has really been making me think. This whole thing actually prompted me to re-read the constitution (I recommend it if you haven't recently, I personally like the 10th amendment) anyway. . . I was surprised to see very little on individual rights. I consider a victim as being someone who has had their rights violated. Which just pushes the question to, what rights do we have?

My brain is pretty much done for tonight. So. . . I'll leave it at that (which is terribly unsatisfying for me, but I really don't think I can be coherent anymore)

- andrew

For some reason I can't make the quoting work. Hope this is readable.

My point is that many of the distasteful aspects of drug use pretty much vanish when it's no longer ileagal. Yeah, addicts are still addicts, with all of the baggage that addiction to ANYTHING carries. Broken families & relationships, losing jobs, etc. However, there are many things that are addictive that are completely legal. Read some articles by recovering WoW players, it's eye opening.

Would you mind clarifying this point a little? It seems to me like you're contradicting yourself... one one hand, you say 'drug use' (I think we're talking about drug abuse here) wouldn't be much of a problem if it were legal. On the other hand, you name 3 examples of problems created by drug use/abuse.

The point I was trying to make (I tend to just type as if I were talking, so sometimes I'm not as clear as I should be) is that there is a difference between use and abuse. Abuse of completely legal things can lead to many of the issues I listed above. Yes, drug abuse can and often does, lead to these issues. What makes some things with potential for abuse legal, and some things with potential for abuse illegal? Many people, myself included, eat far to much garbage. Doughnuts, pizza, sticks of butter , etc. However, none of that is illeagal. Why deny everyone the freedom to choose how to live their lives because some people can't responsibly do the same?

 

I can see victims in almost all of these. I'll list them off:

 

- Not registering my car:

- Driving without a drivers license: how do we know the driver can drive safely? Why was the license taken away, or why does the driver not have it?

 

Who is the victim? having a driver's license does not mean you are a responsible and safe driver. Having or not having a license does not impact your ability to commit other crimes with your car (running over someone, running into someone's house, etc) A driver's license is a piece of plastic. Driving without one hurts no one.

 

- Not paying taxes: how do the roads get paved? How do the poor and disaster victims get federal aid? What about healthcare? This action takes away from them (among others)

I shouldn't have put this in. It was a little more contentious then I wanted for this. The current structure of what tax money gets used for mandates that not paying taxes hurts people. That said. . . .

There were roads in this country long before the federal government came along. I have a road that leads to my house, it's maintained with my HOA payments. My wife works in non-profits. She spends her day (well, spent her day, she's not working at the moment) asking for private citizens to give money to help the community her organization serves. We donate, time, money, and useful items to help the poor and underprivileged. But, as I said above, this discussion is a little out of the scope of what I was going for here. This conversation is a completely different thread.

- Growing pot: for what purpose? let's not kid ourselves... pot is used for something, so this ends up begging the question.

The purpose doesn't matter. The act of growing it is illegal. Growing a plant does not have any victims. Selling said plant might, using said plant might, but the act of growing it is victimless.

- Voluntary prostitution: what about contracting STD's unknowingly and accidentally passing them on? breaking up marriages?

Both of these are risks of sex in general, not specific to prostitiution. Willingly purchasing sex from someone willingingly selling sex is victimless. There may be unplesant consequences, but I see that as being different than being a "victim"

- Selling raw milk: not sure what you mean. unpasteurized? For what purpose?

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20060628-112230-5813r.htm

- Importing cuban cigars: why is there an embargo with Cuba?

- Going to cuba: ditto

Because Castro aligned himself with the Soviet Union in the early 1960s. (yes there is more to it than that, but that is why the embargo started)

- Importing illegal cheese (seriously) http://archive.salon.com/travel/food/featu...0/01/28/cheese/

- gambling: I assume you mean in states where gambling is illegal. this is a grey area, and we can go here if you want. but I think we'd get off topic

In my mind I was thinking internet gambling, and didn't write the internet part.

- Carrying a handgun without a carry license: two words: accidents happen.

Yup. They do. Having a license to carry a handgun does not prevent the accidents.

- possessing a cable decoder: stealing cable? The cable company is the victim here.

The cable company is not hurt until the device is used, which should be illegal. Again, it's a fine line, but there is no victim until the device is used.

- wearing a shirt in front of foreign nationals: you said you're not sure about this one, and it sounds kinda sketchy to me too.

I do know that putting that code on a web page hosted in the US that is accessible to people outside of the US is illegal.

- Selling alcohol in utah: also a grey area, inconsistent laws

While it is not a crime everywhere, it is still a victimless crime in utah. I wasn't nessecarily thinking of just federal crimes. (Though most of my list was)

- Public nudity: see app's response.

yeah, you both got me here.

- writing software to defeat dvd encryption: companies have to create new dvd encryption methods, which costs money.

- providing source code to said software: same. The company paid to have that developed, and others get it for free?

If the code is a copy of what was written, then yes, it's illegal. However, figuring out the math that makes the encryption work, and writing software to undo that encryption is victimless. Without that software you can't play legally purchased DVDs on linux boxes. (at least the last time I checked, this may have changed in the last several years) There is no victim until it is used to illegally copy copyrighted material, which is already a crime.

- using/posessing a radar detector (illegal in DC and VA): grey area again, inconsistent laws

It's still a crime in those areas. I should have stuck to just federal stuff, but this is an issue for me as I spent a bunch of time commuting in DC (mmmm 3 hours each way)

- not licensing pets: not sure on this one, can you clarify it a little?

I was basing this off of (what I now find to be incorrect) literature that I got when I adopted my cat.

The back story for this whole thing, is that I've been trying to figure out what I think the role of gov in the US should be. I'm by no means an anarchist (at least I don't think so) but I also don't like the intrusion into my private life.

This is why I think your ideas here are interesting - there's always a balance between freedom and safety, so where do we draw the line?

Yeah, it is a fine line. It just seems that so much of what is a crime is based on groups of people using the governement to enforce their view of morality. So I'm trying to step back and classify the types of things that should and shouldn't be crimes. The voluntary and consensual idea appeals to me.

anyway. . . that's why I started this thread. I've tried having converstations with people, and it often goes poorly. I figured that the strict rules of engagement here would actually lead to discourse, which it has.

 

Thanks Mods!

 

Glad to hear it! This place had its rocky moments, but there are still some good conversations that go on here. Thanks to the other mods - I couldn't do it myself.

I had to re-do the quoting as I couldn't make sense of the way it was nested. Hopefully you can follow

Many.

- Public nudity

Seriously? You were obviously never scarred at the sight of people who shouldn't be naked in public.

Actually, I do retract that statement. I looked at the GC member pics, and, well. . . . public nudity can definately have MANY victims.

There are actually others I'd like to take issue with, but I have something else I want to get to on my short break.

If I legally can record a TV show to my tivo, then transfer that recording to my computer. Why can't I go online and download the exact same show? It's silly.

I guess that all depends. Are you paying for cable? If so, and you could just download the "exact same show", would you still pay for cable? Regardless of how much money some people rake in, everyone all the way down the ladder deserves to get their money, so that has to be assured. Furthermore, what does paying for cable actually get you? Does it get you unlimited access to a show through any medium? That's an interesting question that seems to be coming up more and more. Perhaps you need to pay a surcharge for Internet downloading as well, depending on what you are actually paying for.

With the TiVO I already have access to a recorded show through pretty much any medium (or at least representatives of the many mediums, I don't know about every single file format etc) I can record the show with a tivo, I can copy that file to my computer (with software that tivo provides) and I can burn that file to a playable dvd (also with software that tivo provides). All that changes when downloading it is the copiy's source (it's on a non tivo hard drive) and the method of viewing. The television show is still recorded in much the same way I would record it (either off the air, or off of a cable signal). It's transferred in largely the same way I would transfer it from my tivo (digital file transfer between two different IPs). Plus, many shows (like Heroes at least, I've been watching the episodes on NBC's website) are available already for free download (viewing a stream is still a download)

Yes, I can find differences between downloading and the tivo then transfer stuff. To me, however, most of the differences seem absolutely trivial.

If it's a broadcast station and you are "Tivoing" it off the air, the question still applies to how the studio consented to deliver it to you. Sure, you may get the same episode by downloading it form the 'Net, but if the studio consented to deliver it to you over broadcast airwaves only for television viewing, and not for repackaging and redistribution across the Internet, it doesn't really matter if it's the same product -- Downloading it is not consensual. Studios are starting to sell the same show they air publicly on iTunes or through other outlets -- do you think they honestly would consent, if asked, to other 'Net denizens redistributing their work for free when Apple gets redistribution rights for a price?

 

I'm sure there's more to this than I was able to come up with on the spur of the moment, and I'm sure this isn't foolproof either, but I think there's more to it than the fact that they are equal shows. Personally, I think they should just release it to the general public once they air it...but then again, they want to sell DVDs, so what's the added value for consumers in that case? Interesting topic.

The added value to consumers, and the reason I don't download stuff like this, is that digging up a decent quality rip of a TV episode is a huge pain in the butt. A full season of most shows costs about 30.00. You'd spend hours and hours of time downloading, mastering, and burning dvd's from recorded shows. I happily pay the 30 bucks or so for shows that I want to see. I happily pay the 1.99 on itunes for episodes that I miss (I have the worst cable box on the planet and it often doesn't change channels correctly through the tivo)

Plus, studio mastered DVDs tend to be of much better quality than stuff that people record.

Then I started thinking about my trips to Amsterdam, and how that country wasn't falling apart. They have very liberal laws on prostitution and drugs. The city is BEAUTIFUL, the people are friendly, and the place is safe (walking around a city I don't know at 2 in the morning and not jumping at shadows) It was eye opening.

FWIW I have never been to Amsterdam, but I have known people who have visited, lived there short-term (6 mos. - 1 year on business / military) and have met people who live there or nearby while traveling. Your comments were interesting to me, because of what I've heard in every case except yours. Every single one of them, when asked about how safe the city was, said that certain parts were fine, but there were certain districts where they would not travel after dark under any circumstances, and most of them, when asked to elaborate, said they usually correlated to areas with late-night prostitution and drug establishments. I wish I could elaborate, but I don't know enough about the city. I'm not saying that more liberal laws on some things is bad (I for one am not satisfied with the DMCA) but from what I've heard I don't think it's that simple, either.

Absolutely. There are places I wouldn't walk at night. The red light district feels quite safe. A very noticable police presence, and the people are there trying to make money selling a legal product. The last thing they want to happen is for people to get scared of coming to their place of business.

I do know that the murder rate for Amsterdam is something like 7 per 100,000. Compared to washington DC which is something in the 50's per 100,000. (This is off of memory, and I'm not writing a term paper so I'm not going to dig sources, but I'm pretty sure they're close)

I agree, the answer is not that simple. I think the US is a much different place than Europe (for good and bad) and policies there wouldn't nessecarily work here. However, our policies here are not working at all. Perhaps it's time to try something else rather than continuing to fund policies that have been proven over the last 30+ years to not work at all. I'm an engineer, if somethings not working the first thing I do is to find something that is working, and adapt it.

Interesting conversation.

I agree. As I said in my last post, I really like a forum that enables rational conversation.

Thanks again mods.

You've got an interesting argument here, if I'm understanding you correctly.

 

Essentially, you're condoning victimless crimes, right? If someone wants to join the "Punch Yourself in the Face" club, why restrict that? Who else is it hurting besides that person?

 

The biggest problem with this argument is supporting the idea of a "victimless crime". Gond brought up one objection: there are oftentimes victims beyond the initial scope. Take your innocent crack smokers, for example. (I lawled at that one too, btw). When he/she buys crack, where are they buying it from? Is it from an FDA-regulated pharmaceutical company? What kind of quality product are they producing? What does the manufacturer do for the community? You can probably see where I'm going with this... the people that make drugs like crack don't exactly help the community. So there are lots of indirect victims to an apparent victimless crime.

Where are they buying it from?

* If it's not illegal potentially the same place you buy beer.

Is it from an FDA-regulated pharm. company?

* If it's no longer illegal to sell, then, yeah, it could be from an FDA approved pharm.

Quality?

* I've had some pretty low quality beer in my life (Iron City, Schlitz both come to mind)

* I've had sushi that has put me in the bathroom for 3 or 4 days. I know that I risk that everytime I eat a delicious delicious spicy tuna roll.

What does the manufacturer do for the community?

* Again, if it's not illegal, the manufacturer possibly does just as well/poorly as any other company.

My point is that many of the distasteful aspects of drug use pretty much vanish when it's no longer ileagal. Yeah, addicts are still addicts, with all of the baggage that addiction to ANYTHING carries. Broken families & relationships, losing jobs, etc. However, there are many things that are addictive that are completely legal. Read some articles by recovering WoW players, it's eye opening.

Question for you... can you come up with an example of a truly victimless crime?

Many.

- Not registering my car

- Driving without a drivers license

- Not paying taxes

- Growing pot

- Prostitution (As long as it's voluntary. forced prostitution breaks the whole consensual thing)

- Selling raw milk

- Importing cuban cigars

- Going to cuba

- Importing illegal cheese (seriously) http://archive.salon.com/travel/food/featu...0/01/28/cheese/

- gambling

- Carrying a handgun without a carry license

- possessing a cable decoder

- wearing a shirt in front of foreign nationals (http://cypherspace.org/adam/rsa/uk-shirt.html)

I'm not 100% sure if this is still illegal, but we are pretty crazy about crypto laws

- Selling alcohol in utah

- Public nudity

- writing software to defeat dvd encryption

- providing source code to said software

- using/posessing a radar detector (illegal in DC and VA)

- not licensing pets

etc.

The back story for this whole thing, is that I've been trying to figure out what I think the role of gov in the US should be. I'm by no means an anarchist (at least I don't think so) but I also don't like the intrusion into my private life.

If I legally can record a TV show to my tivo, then transfer that recording to my computer. Why can't I go online and download the exact same show? It's silly. How is one legal and one ilegal. Makes no sense to me. Then I started thinking about my trips to Amsterdam, and how that country wasn't falling apart. They have very liberal laws on prostitution and drugs. The city is BEAUTIFUL, the people are friendly, and the place is safe (walking around a city I don't know at 2 in the morning and not jumping at shadows) It was eye opening.

anyway. . . that's why I started this thread. I've tried having converstations with people, and it often goes poorly. I figured that the strict rules of engagement here would actually lead to discourse, which it has.

Thanks Mods!

I was paying $1600 a semester at Radford University Freshman year 2000. That is tutition only, no food, rent or books..

5th Year Senior, my tuition was $3200 a semester. I might as well have bent over for them.

If you feel like you were bending over for them, then why did you continue to pay? Do you precieve that you were getting value for 1600 a semester that you aren't getting for 3200 a semester? I understand that 3200 a semester is a big chunk of change. I understand that you'd rather pay 1600 vs 3200. But, if you still feel like it's worth paying the 3200, then why do you feel like you're being bent over?

For every voluntary transaction I make, I preceive that I am getting value for what I pay. If I didn't preceive value I wouldn't go through with the transaction. Would I like to pay less for electric service? Absolutely. Do I think I get value for what I am currently paying? Yes.

I guess my point is, why enter a transaction where you don't feel you are better off for it? It's the compulsory transactions that really annoy me. If I'm not a fan of company X's polices, then I can choose to not buy their product. If I do like company X's products and policies, but they charge too much, then I can choose not to buy the product (assuming there is no govt enforced monopoly)

Note: Electric service where I live has been under a pretty solid govt assited monopoly for decades, so the pricing is higher than I believe it would be if there were real competition. That said, I do like having things that light up, so I'm willing to pay for it.

I guess whilst my wife wasn't, I was lucky, didn't have too much of a last minute waiting thing, then again my daughter did arrive nearly a month early so we bypassed it.

 

Is this your first?

Yup.

Prayers for you, and keep calm, it's supposed to be a "happy time" not one to worry.

 

I'm guessing she won't have to do what my wife did and drive herself to hospital....

Hopefully not. I work an hour away from home, but her parents live near us, and they are on call.

I'm not too nervous, the waiting is what is driving me a little bonkers.

That's exciting man! Do you know if it's a boy or a girl?

 

We'll pray for you...

 

Nope. Gonna be a surprise.

Thanks

We're expecting our first kid in a few days. We're both pretty nervous and the waiting is driving me crazy. My phone rings at work and I jump about 10 feet out of my chair.

Anyway, any positive chi/karma/prayers/death metal tunes you can send our way would be appreciated.

(I go for the prayers, but I like to make sure no one feels left out)

Maverick' date='Oct 5 2006, 02:58 PM' post='369891']

Duke...public colleges that are worth anything cost more than 20k now-a-days

 

I went to Kent State in Kent, and the tuition there more than doubled from when I started to when I graduated. It's also continued to go up since. The excuse they are giving is that the government keeps cutting funding to higher education while at the same time telling people to go do it. That's probably not the enitre truth, but it's definately part of it because everywhere you look public school prices are going up to rival the private ones.

Could it be that there are more people competing for each seat? I can't find any information on college enrollment (at least not with google) so it's just my speculation. There are a limited number of slots available.

It's getting to the point now where some community colleges are as expensive as small public state univeristies.

 

Yes, part of the problem is that people are dumb. I mean...really really stupid with how they spend their money, but another part of the problem is that people that are perfectly intelligent are running out of choices.

 

Don't want to go to that 40k school? No problem, get a 2 year tech degree from Nowhere Local Community college, you may have seen our corny add on local TV.

Trade school is bad exactly why? They guys that installed my new heatpump made a ton of coin from me. The people I pay to fix my car aren't exactly going broke. A very good friend of mine installs sprinkler systems in tampa. He started as an apprentice with no experience. Worked his tail end off for 7 or 8 years, and he's now running his own teams. He seems to be a very happy dude to me. Sweats his butt off all day, works hard, comes home stinking. But, he makes a great living. So, what is wrong with a good solid blue collar job?

I don't have a degree. I went to some college, ran out of money (I refused to be in debt for school), and went to work. I have a VERY good job writing network security software. Yeah, it is a little harder for me to find work when I have to. However, I make sure that I am quite good at my job, and have yet to have an issue once I'm in the door.

In short, I take responsibility for myself. When school was too expensive, I did something else.

(yes, all of this is anecdotal so it doesn't mean so much. I just take exception when people knock trade schools)

Don't want that 25k car? No problem, take this Yaris which is the worst thing Toyota has ever built!

Walk, take the bus, run, jog, bike, buy a used car, carpool, etc.

See what I mean? Yes people are stupid buying things that they can't afford. I'm very careful with my money because I'm forced to be as an intelligent member of society. However, I'm running out of good choices, prices keep going up, and wages are staying the same.

Yup, stagflation is no fun. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stagflation)

If you're a teenager with a minimum wage job you can barely afford to pay for gas enough to drive too and from High School if you're lucky enough to have a hand-me-down car from your parents. However, congress has repeatedly rejected the raising of minimum wage while making tax cuts for large coporations.

What is the point of rasing minimum wage? Is it supposed to be a temporary fix that ultimately defeats itself? or is there something I'm missing?

Lets say, I make widgets. It takes me 10.00 of materials, and 5 man hours to make a widget. I need to make 10% on each widget sale in order for my company to be profitable. So. . . if minimum wage is 1.00, I can sell widgets for 16.50.

If the minimum wage goes to 2.00 I now need to charge 22.00 for the same widget. Lets say some of my employees buy products that use these widgets, these products are now more expensive (both because of my increased cost and everyone else's increased cost)

So. . . if my managers were all making 2.00, I need to give them raises as well, driving my costs even higher, a cost that I will undboutedly pass along to the people that buy my widgets. It make take several years for this to move around, but the end result is more price increase with little payroll growth (outside of those make minimum, or near minimum) See stagflation above.

Definately something wrong there...

 

No, I have nothing at all against the rich, and I admire guys like Bill Gates (though I don't agree with ALL of his business practices). He's rich as all get out, but gives more away to charity every year than 100 foundations combined could give. I'm just angry because us middle-class people are getting screwed up the tail-pipe. House prices are up, car prices are up, insurance prices are up, medical expenses are up, and that makes it difficult for a guy like me that's getting married soon and trying to start a life.

Spend some time looking at the reasons things cost what they cost. Housing prices are where they are because of greenspan lowering the prime rate to try to engineer a "soft" landing out of the crash in the late 90s. Rates are artificially low, people buy realestate. More people buying something, means that the people selling it can charge more.

Now the fed is kinda stuck. Rates need to go up to fix a number of issues (the awful state of the dollar being one) However, it's political suicide due to the number of people who are stuck in an ARM. *sigh*

If it weren't for my parents saving up since before I was born for me to go to college, I would be completely up poop creek without a paddle or sail.

My parents paid for my first year of college. I paid for the second, and stopped halfway through the third because I couldn't afford it anymore. I went to work. I'm now finishing my degree (at the University of Phoenix, a surprisingly decent school, it's not fantastic, but it is pretty good) and yeah, it's a pain. Costs a ton of $$, but when I'm getting ready to take classes again my wife and I stop spending money on stuff. Don't go out to eat, don't go to movies, etc. Conserve a little for a few months and it really adds up.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/09/missouri....=cnn_topstories

 

Another kid brings a gun to school, luckily no one was hurt.

 

I find it much more alarming that kids and adults are attacking our school system. The thing is, this has probably been happening for years in the ghetto, but noone cares about them. If your white, good looking and not poor you will make the news. Well finally the people that matter are seeing the effects of school shootings.

Yeah, I read somewhere that there were over 100 kids killed in schools last year. (I want to say the number was in the 450 range, but I can't find the source) An insigificant percentage of those made any sort of national news.

I honestly feel like the media is making it worse, Everytime they show one on TV, another kid get the the idea... Hell this could have even been happening for years, but the media finally figured out what brings in the ratings..thats all that matters right?

For the company that gets paid based on their ratings, yeah, that is ultimately what matters. I blame the mooks that flock to the coverage. Everyone who clicks links about stories like this make the problem worse. Big media companies are shockingly organized (IMO). They know what stories are getting lots of eyes, and feed that as long as the people show up to watch/read.

I pretty much agree with ya...the argument though is that you may be doing something that does affect others in a way without their concent.

 

For example. If your doing crack & become a crackhead your not going to support yourself. Thus you are going to take my tax dollars and use them without my consent.

So the damage to you is done by the government taking your money, not by the person smoking crack? Why punish all of the innocent crack smokers? (yes I did laugh while typing that) I would hold the government to the same rules. Only intervene when I deny someone else their right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

I'm not condoning some of the government involvement as I think it's nuts. I'll be voting against the law to forbid smoking in restaurants for your exact reason. If I don't want to eat somewhere cause I smell smoke then I'll find another restaurant. It's not right for me to force a restaurant owner to implement rules...thats just big government.

Using the logic above (about you paying taxes to support the crack smoker) then smoking should be banned entirely. Someone is paying tax money to support sick people who are sick because they smoke.

So, is the problem really the behavior? or the government's reaction to the behavior?

About me.

I am a firm believer in the idea that all human interaction should be voluntary and consensual. The governments role, in my opinion, is to enforce this. What does this mean?

Someone steals my car, this was neither voluntary or consensual, that person has committed a crime.

Someone beats their kid. Again, not voluntary, not consensual.

Two lame people want to get married? Fine. Voluntary and consensual.

Want to gamble? Fine, as long as you're not forced to do it.

Want to donate money to the shelter down the street? Way to go! again, as long as you're not forced to.

Selling bad meat advertised as good meat? Voluntary, but not consensual. (You don't have to buy the meat, but you wouldn't buy the meat if it were bad)

Want to smoke crack? Fine. You're not forced to do it, and you're not forcing anyone else to do it.

Want to purchase and listen to the first Bodycount album? Fine.

Want to download and read the anarchists cookbook? Fine.

Want to own and shoot firearms at targets? Great. You're voluntarliy doing it, and the targets don't care.

Want to charge 5.00 a gallon for gas? Fine. I'm not forced to buy your product. (I wouldn't be happy about it at all, I'd have to change how I live my life, but ultimately, I choose wether or not to purchase gas)

Want to invade another country and remove it's leader? Not fine. You are voluntarily performing the action, but I doubt the other party involved consents to it.

I believe that this applies to both social issues and to economic issues.

It doesn't appear to me that there is anyone (or very few) I can vote for at the local or national level that embraces this ideal. Do people really feel that the government should have any opinion at all on who you can marry? What you can smoke? How you spend your money? What you can drink?

If so, why? How is it that you are qualified, or believe that the government is qualified, to make decisions about my life for me?

Some interesting related artices

http://www.mises.org/story/2279

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul301.html

We could use admin presence on mayhem. TKs langauge etc.

specifcally playernamed Jigaboo

Don't know how to pull the steamid.

I don't know if these have been covered already but I recently picked up the Medsua 5.1 home edition headset.

The build quality is VERY good. Things feel solid, the plastic doesn't bend and is joined well.

The sound is quite good. The channel seperation is not quite what I'd like, but I definately get better positioning hints than I do with a regular headset. (They don't help my awful play at all, but I still blame that on my headphones)

They connect via the seperate jacks on your sound card (i.e. no built in 5.1 decoder)

I got these for about 150 or so including shipping.

Medusa USA

There was a good writeup of them on Toms Hardware (I think) which is what prompted me to get them. All in all I'm very happy w/ the purchase.

I recently (last 6 mos or so) picked up a pair of SCEPTER 20G NagaIIIs from costco

for about 320 each. They're not the best LCD's I've used, but for the price point they are really good.

Link to product info

I only have a few complaints with them

1) There is a fairly obnoxious big blue light on the front of them (the scepter logo is

backlit in blue when active, and blinks red when asleep)

2) I have one dvi and one vga output on my video card. The display I have connected on

the VGA side occasionally (2 or 3 times a week) seems to lose focus. It's easliy fixed

by putting an image of a small checkboard pattern on the display and hitting the re-calibrate

button.

3) There is no height adjustment on the mount. (though they are VESA 100 compatible so I can

by a different mount, but those things are $$)

skarface, it's a netburst intel so i'll bite my tongue. nice monitor setup though. the x850xt isn't dual dvi? nice memory. at least you only need a new mobo to upgrade to core 2. i'm wincing at the price of a new mobo, cpu and memory for myself. it's lookin like $800+...

My last several boxes were AMDs, and I just wanted a change. When I got this thing the price of the core 2 stuff was through the roof (it was only a few months old) so I opted for this chip.

My mobo is the aa8xe from gigabyte (not the fatility model) I'm pretty happy with it. I had a pair of CRT's when I bought the box, so I didn't go for the dual DVI option. It's really not that big of a deal for me now anyway. I keep temp graphs/fanspeed/status stuff on my secondary most of the time. It's not _quite_ as clear as the dvi, but it's not too bad.

CPU: P4 3.4 (w/ HT active)

MEM: 2G (Dual DDR2)

DRIVES: 300 G Seagate (main drive)

250 G Maxtor (misc)

VIDEO: Radeon X850 (XT)

SOUND: onboard AC97 HD (soundblaster didn't work for me)

DISPLAY: 2 x Sceptre 20" LCDs (1680x1050 on both, dvi on primary, vga on secondary)

Currently running the Omega 3.8.273 drivers on the video card

My current best 3dmark05 score

3Dmark05 Profile

I also have an old 1.??? AMD box that I dork around with linux on. It's currently running Dapper Drake (ubuntu) But it had been running Gentoo for a long time before that. (wanted to play with a new distro)

I'm probabbly going to re-install gentoo on it at some point. I'm not a huge ubuntu fan, solid distro, but I like more control.

Thanks!

I was looking for something to use my audible credits on.

- andrew

Anyone else love fantasy, sci-fi books?

Yah.

Some books I've loved that I consider s/f (I lump horror into here as well)

Song of Ice and Fire series (George RR Martin)

Ender's Game/Speaker for the Dead (Orson Scott Card)

I've heard most of the books in the Ender/Bean world are pretty good

Hyperion/The Fall Of Hyperion/Endymion/The Rise of Endymion (Dan Simmons)

I haven't read these in a while but I remember really liking them

Dark Tower series (Steven King)

I'm really not a huge king fan, but I really liked the series (book 1 was a little weak though)

Swan Song (Robert R McCammon)

I really remember enjoying many of his books, again, I haven't read him in ages

The Diamond Age (Neal Stephenson)

Also, Snow Crash, and Cryptonomicon (sp?) I REALLY liked all of these books. I haven't

been able to get much traction into the quicksilver books though

American Gods (Neil Gaiman)

This book and the related book "The Anansi Boys" were both really neat. A very interesting

take on legend, myth, and modern society.

I've read the first few books out of the Robert Jordan series. It's OK. They just feel needlessly long and

lacking focus

Sadly, I don't really have the time to read as much as I once did. I spend a ton of time reading for work and when I get home I'm generally pretty braindead. However, I do listen to books driving to and from work (unabridged only) . If any of you like audiobooks and have an iPod I HIGHLY reccomend audible. For around 20 bucks a month you get 2 audio books per month. They have a very good selection of sf/f

Thanks for the update. I really appreciate it.

Look for it this weekend

Ice, are any of the other maps we've been playing yours?

- andrew

I can remember people saying woot back in the Ultima Online days.. which is way before Half-life 1 and pretty much the rise of online FPS. I probably saw other people type it, but the first time I remember using it, I was trying to type woohoo really fast and woot came out. Ultima is pretty much D&D, so it does make sense.

First off. . .

/me loves teh NOFX, I listen to punk in drublic almost weekly.

I always thought woot was a corruption of the noises that the grunts made in warcraft II. It always sounded like they were saying woort woort woort. . . . The wow loot thing make sense too. . . .

ops as in operators? admins? moderators? Ticket holders? Season passes? Cooks?

 

*I need a MLB game and a Hotdog....*

There were some questionable sprays and some language, seemed to be increasing at the time I posted but settled down shortly afterwards. Go figure.

- andrew