soul .gc

Then suck it up and breathe the smoke or find a restaurant where smoking is not allowed hehe.

 

I will agree to the second part - that is true.

Ahh - the employees do have a choice though - to work there or not to work there?

I actually agree completely on the car issue.

 

However - the tobacco one I disagree on haha. Why not leave it up to the business owner to decide if they want to allow smoking? If folks do not want to be around the smoke then they can go elsewhere, and if that happens with enough people the owner will switch his policy.

 

Smoking will never be outlawed here in the US. There is not nearly enugh support for anything like that. I actually think the lawsuits against the tobacco companies were ridiculous myself. But then again we are becoming a nation of finger-pointers when bad things happen. Granted they did need punishment for the false advertising but people have known nicotine is bad for you since the 1950's so I have very little sympathy for the ones that smoke till they get cancer and die.

 

My fear is that this epidemic of blaming others is going to continue spreading and soon we will have caffeine lawsuits, more fast food lawsuits, on and on the list goes. Heart disease kills more people annually then cancer - by far. What is next banning fast food because someone felt they HAD to have it every day for every meal 15 years in a row? What happened to the days of personal responsibility?

 

I am a non-smoker, have never smoked besides the occassional cigar on the golf course and I actually hate the smell on my clothes when I come home from hanging out with friends at a sports bar. I still believe this is a personal choice issue and if it bothered me that much I would go elsewhere.

Good post Mav - Even if I completely disagree with you haha.

 

1) Agreed emissions are bad as a general statement.

 

2) Curious if you drive a vehicle at all since you are against petrol vehicles, hybrids and fuel cells....

 

However - I do agree that there is no reason we should not have more alternatives out there for people to purchase. But I still say let the price of gas drive the market in the correct direction. Enforcing higher emission standards and more regulations is not the way to go IMO.

 

Finally - tobacco. Here I am going to have to disagree partially again. I agree they should move smoking areas away from the doors for the non-smokers freedom. BUT - I also think that restaurants and bars should be allowed to let people smoke. Lately we are on a big kick to ban smoking at indoor places. I still fail to see why this is necessary - if you, a non-smoker, does not want to worry about smoke then find a restaurant with no smoking or eat at home but they restaurant owners or business owners should be able to decide themselves which crowd they wish to serve and which one is more profitable - this should never be a government regulation. Sorry - huge sore point with me on this particular topic as well haha.

Hey - I'm here for you NOFX - always love a good discussion!!

 

61 extra a month? a 610 dollar car payment?? that is insane what people do. I think if you have a 600 dollar cay payment, you can purchase a car without the massaging seats and speak recognition, to make up for the difference if you cant afford the 10%. But I would say if your paying that much for a car and that 10% is hurting you, you should not be maxing out the most you can afford anyway....

That is a $30,000 vehicle payment for 5 years with nothing down. That is no massaging seats or speech recognition haha. See - what you may choose not to do - buy a new car - does not mean that Fred down the street has always dreamed of a new Avalon with the basic options and 30k is his price range. Go up to 33k and you are now out of his price range.

 

Is there enough evidence there that should justify the closing of tobacco plants, farms and causes many jobs to be lost. The Tobacco companies would have me believe otherwise.

 

See I am a proponent of Big Tobacco. I say if you want to smoke or chew then go ahead - but you know damn well you can die from it so no suing or blaming someone else. I chewed for over 15 years before quitting - it sucked to quit and I would love to start again but I did not want my jaw falling off in front of my kids haha. If I got cancer from it would I blame Big Tobacco? No - It was my choice to do it.

 

what I was getting at is the cars we drive today are already obsolete.. We will not be using this technology in the future. Rather than waiting for the new tech to come in full effect, we should go ahead and fix our old technology.

How? By causing the cost of cars to rise and plants to close? We already have pretty good emission standards on our vehicles. The best thing we could do is let the price of gas keep rising and have the market adjust itself that way.

 

didn't we already agree on the plants are already closing and moving the blue collar jobs to countries who will do our work for cheaper?

 

It is happening and I am glad to see it. I think globalization is what we need. Although I also think we need to look at our foreign policy regarding trade and start levelling the field with the big importers - China will not allow you to sell anything in their country unless you make it there. I say we do the same thing.

 

Now everyone click here:

 

http://www.gamrs.co/forums/in...showtopic=32352

 

and put a bid in on this beautiful vehicle - it has a catalytic converter so it is "safe" to drive and good for the environment.

First off - Very nice post Leveller - you are correct though about American debt attitude. My wife and I recently, well 2 years now, switched to buying things with cash. If we want something we save up and then buy it. It sure makes it easier in the long run.

 

$3000 extra for a car is nothing when you spend $30,000 for it anyway.. That wouldn't bother me because I don't feel the need to go in debt to show my neighbors how cool I am in a new car.. but anyway..

Really? 10% additional on the car is "nothing"? $61/month additional on a typical 5 year car loan. I am glad for you that it does not affect you but what about all the consumers that do purchase new cars. Drop new car sales a lot and you drop employment for the manufacturers. All on a remote, very remote IMO, chance that this could somehow fix global warming.

 

like I said, if you don't think man is effecting our earth.. you must still acknowledge the possibility. So why not be safe rather than sorry?

I didn't buy condoms because it would cost 5 more dollars and she got pregnant.

I didn't buy full insurance because it would cost xxx amount more a year and I totaled my car

I didn't buy the warranty because it cost $100 more and my $2000 TV got fried in a thunderstorm

 

I did not make that statement. I fully agree we are affecting the Earth in various ways.

 

Many people do not carry full insuranceon cars or buy warranties. If your computer or TV gets fried in a thunderstorm you get reimbursed through homeowners. I cannot remember the last time I purchased a warranty on anything other than a car.

 

We didn't regulate emission on obsolete cars and its now hot as hell, animals are dying, we have less crops and the weather is all messed up.

Hmmm - we have had emission controls since the late 1970's. In 1970 there were 108 million registered vehicles, in 2003 there were 231 million. Are you saying those cars made before regulations went into effect are responsible? That is what your statement has above. If so - I would be interested to see how you possibly prove that - are those pesky 1968 camaros causing all the fuss?

 

We should at least be safe rather than sorry. We won't be using gasoline for cars sometime within my lifetime. So I think we should go ahead and make these type of vehicles greener.

 

Sorry I do not buy it. I do not see how increasing the costs, causing the shut down of plants and the loss of sales is justified on someones hunch about global warming.

 

I seriously doubt it will close plants.. if it does.. oh well. Why are they even trying to hold on to them for? Times change, people change, our ways change. They can't hold onto the old fashion way forever.

 

Was there a ban cars back in 1915 because it would cause all the horse farmers to close down their farms... geez grow up administration

 

Seeing as how I am close to a number of plants and have worked for 2 of the big 3 and the latest numbers from the Big 3 I can guarantee that it will cause closures. They are already on the verge of closing a number of plants and lowering sales further will guarantee that. Not quite sure what the rest of your comments are trying to state - times change? Yup - Weren;t you the same person that argued against globalization and outsourcing of jobs? You wanted to keep jobs here in the US and so on? Guess what - times change, you cannot hold on to the old fashioned ways forever....

There is not enough evidence to support the theory. I do not believe there is even a consensus among scientists on this issue.

 

In my opinion I think the man-made Global Warming theory is a farce.

 

Anyways - back to the original question. Since there is not enough evidence to prove this why should we enact something that will drive up the price of cars by $3000 per car (according to auto manufacturers responding to the California CO2 emission standards set to go into effect in 2016).

 

The price would go up by $3000 per vehicle on average. According to Democratic Senator John Dingell; "The automobile industry estimates that it will close about eight plants, which assemble automobiles, four transmission plants and four engine plants, resulting in the loss of thousands of American jobs." - That is just if California enacts their new standards. Make it nationwide and it will multiply greatly the effects on jobs and automobile costs.

 

Not to mention that 3rd world countries very little emission standards. China, as mentioned above, does have standards but they are quite a few years behind the EU and the USA. The EU just enacted new diesel standards that will actually drive people to gasoline vehicles which pollute more than diesel engines.

 

Personally - I think we will see gas prices in the $4 range soon and that will cause us to start looking at more fuel efficient vehicles as well as other fuels like Propane, Electric, hybrids, etc... I prefer to let the market control the situation instead of regulate. We have way too many friggin laws on the books as it is. We need a revolution and to start fresh with basic common sense laws and good old fashioned "western" justice for the people that try to screw others....like that will ever happen though.

I can honestly say I am confused after that post Nofx.

 

"yopu can claim you have the winning president..." Umm - it is a fact he was the winner.

At least they have the sticker of a winner on their bumper instead of a loser...

Speaking of Kerry, I laugh whenever I see a car that still has the "Vote for Kerry in '04" bumper sticker on it. biglaugha.gif I want to tell those people: "Get over it, he lost."

 

hahahah - I feel the same. Especially when I see the ones with the Al Gore stickers still on them from 2000.

It will not stop countries from attaining nuclear weapons, all it will do is once a country finally gets those weapons, we will be the enemy.

Like we are the enemy with Pakistan, India and Israel? See - I agree that we do need to change some of our foreign policy but just not as drastically as you want in your posts, I feel that would do us, and the world, more harm than good.

 

Anyway, thats my position. Its a dispassionate view of the situation.

 

True and I apologize for trying to beat it down earlier. It is your opinion and you are 100% entitled to it. However, I believe it is not a dispassionate view as we can see from your posts.

 

As to the last paragraph, ya sappy man you, I do agree with it 100%. Just see my thread in one of these other topics from a couple days ago - we have soo many problems in this country yet seem to think that we have some inherent right, just because we were born here. Time for a wake-up call before too long.

The west welcomed them into the nuclear family

 

Wrong. Some of the west did this. The US imposed sanctions, per the NPT, immediately. In fact - this happened to both countries.

 

Here is a bit better timeline for you:

 

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/02/0....timeline.reut/

 

For Instance - here is the true reason we cut off aid in 1979:

 

"1979: The United States cuts off all military and fresh economic aid to Pakistan after refusing to accept assurances that its nuclear program is purely peaceful."

 

In fact - we were one of the few NPT countries to actually follow the treaty and impose sanctions as called for by law.

 

As to the "viscious dictator" issue - who is to say what would have happened had we not interfered. I am not agreeing with our decisions in the past, at least not all of them, but to say now we should just willy-nilly go in and help them develop nuclear capability is, in my opinion, a huge mistake.

ou use such sweeping generalities

I was refering to the fanatics I mentioned in the first sentence, not everyone in those countries. Althought I do believe it is not a small group that I would classify as fanatics.

 

Thats a fine thing to say, but the problem is we CAN'T control who gets nuclear weapons. So your plan is to going to fail. It failed with N. Korea, it failed with Pakistan, failed with India, is failing with Iran. If a policy fails, why stick with it?

 

Where did the plan fail with Pakistan and India? I do not remember sanctions or issues with them getting nuclear technology. North Korea got it from Pakistan's father of Nuclear technology who ran a world-wide ring selling the technology and was hunted by the top intelligence agencies in the world for 20 years.

 

India and Pakistan, as well as Israel are all non-members of the NPT (non-proliferation treaty). Iran, however, is a member and is breaking the treaty by pursuing these weapons. India and Pakistan have had the capability for years, India first tested in 1974 and then waiting until 1998 to do 5 additional tests and formally declare itself a world thermonuclear power, at which time Pakistan did the same thing. So the analogy above is not correct.

 

At least if we become partners and help them, we will be seen as less of an evil, and more of a friend. You understand that Islam is a medieval religion right? What the clergy says is true, is true. The clergy is also the main political power in most of the Islamic countries. If we become indespencible to the political power, they will see to it that the retoric against the U.S. dies.

How will we be seen as less of an evil? Remember - this is not just the US putting these sanctions in place or demanding that Iran not have the Nuke. I also disagree that by helping establish them with nukes will all of the sudden make us indispensible.

 

The item I find most telling is, "our non-islamic religion". We are a hodgepodge of religious beliefs. We do have quite a few Muslims, Buddists, Hidus, Sieks, and numerous other religions other than Christianity. Its not our religious beliefs that have made us the devil.

 

It is one big factor in it all. The majority of the US, and the "west" for that matter, are Christians. Yes, there are other religions but Christianity makes up the vast majority. This is anathema to the fanatics.

Sure - Sounds great. Let's give them nuclear energy and the ability to refine it and pop out some suitcase nukes for the fanatics to get into the US and blow us up.

 

I think what some fail to realize is these folks hate the West - the USA being a big part of the "West". They hate our culture, our society, our non-islamic religion, our women's rights, on and on and on the list goes. I firmly believe we should help control, with the assistance of other nations, who gets nuclear weapons and technology - to sit back and just "hope" that they will not be used against us will get lots of us killed IMO.

Oh I do agree that the UN is pretty worthless - I just feel that we need to hold off on another unilateral decision at this point in time. Let the rest of the world go protect something - and while we are at it I think we should also pull the majority of our international aide funding and put it to domestic use.

I knew someone would bring it up eventually....

 

On the highway to Florida we averaged 15-16mpg - In town it is a bit lower, around 12mpg.

 

The 15-16 was at 84mph also, so you may get 1-2 more if you did slower speeds but I would rather get there faster....wherever "there" happens to be.

Wisdom - Emilio Estevez and Demi Moore

 

Willow - Val Kilmer and some short folks

 

Big Trouble in Little China - Kurt Russel - "It's all in the reflexes"

 

Fast Times at Ridgemont High - Sean Penn's greatest role!!

 

The Spanish Prisoner - Steve Martin

 

Medium good ones that are unknown and new:

 

Waiting - Ryan Reynolds

 

Foolproof - Ryan Reynolds

 

Stark Raving Mad - Sean William Scott

 

 

Boondock Saints is great but mentioned a ton above already

No mechanical issues. My uncle has a car lot in Ohio and he took it in on trade from the original owner about 4 years ago. We bought it with around 60k miles and put 15 on it the last 4 years.

 

The air blows cold, the heat is hot. No knock or issues. The only problem I had was the exhaust rusted out and I replaced it from the converter on back.

 

The one thing I forgot above - it does need a new windshield seal. The GM vans have seals that dry out and this one has done that and in a heavy downpour it leaks a tiny, tiny bit (like 1-2 drops) down the inside of the windshield.

 

From what I could find this blue books at $6000 or thereabouts - but no one wants a big van anymore so the actual market price runs around 3200-4500 here - I dropped the price because we want to get a VW convertible for the wife but do not want 4 cars - so one has to go....that and we never drive the thing anymore.

Is it possible to remove the AWP and put the Auto-sniper back in every now and then? At least folks have a fighting chance against that as opposed to the AWP. Just my thoughts.

51% of Americans are more concerned with red vs blue and less concerned with voting in a well educated competent president who thinks logically, rationally and with his heart. I'm deeply sadden 51% of americans think removing sadamm(and as a side effect causing 54,000 civilian deaths, 3,200 American deaths and 24,000 American injuries is more important than helping seniors or all people with medical expenses, removing poverty from within our own country, help stabilize our country and help us remove this gigantic debt that we have gotten ourselves into.

 

Wow - I did not know that voting for Bush meant not helping seniors and health-care and all that. Amazing piece of writing there, with an astounding jump in logic to arrive at that outcome. haha - Come on Nofx - even you cannot be thinking the one = the other. Not trying to antagonize - just a bit of humor.

 

Here is one person who voted for Bush who thinks that we do need a national deductible for medical expenses in some fashion, who does think we should stop billions in foreign aide and clean up our roads and cities first, and who thinks we need to seriously consider our forthcoming ageism issues as the baby-boomers start retiring.

 

But hey - I also think that we need to eliminate the freeloaders and people on government handouts more then 2 years in a row. If you cannot find a job and need government money then you should have to work for that money doing community service of some fashion.

 

Living in Michigan I hear people complain ALL the time about the foreigners coming to America and taking jobs. You know why? Because we have become a lazy nation where most people think they automatically deserve something, just because they are born here. Well the hell with that. You work or you fail - one or the other. This whole entitlement mentality is nothing but pure crap and I have started telling that to people when I here them complain about the foreigners working here.

 

Take the local nail salon - all asians and they work non-stop 7 days a week, 10 hours a day. They live in a small place and they work all the time. I constantly see landscaping and brick-laying companies with tons of "south-of-the-border" workers and very few whites/blacks. I have a friend who has a landscaping company and my two cousins own a turf company in Maryland and I got the same answers from both of them. They cannot find locals who will do the work. They will get someone who shows up the first day and sees how hard the work is then goes home. One guy even told them it was not worth it, his welfare made him more money and he did not have to work for that check.

 

Anyways - I will hop off my soapbox now. Good to see the forums still alive down here, even though it seems a little slow recently.

Even though I still support our Iraq decision - I hope this time we have a bit more patience and let the UN decide to go in.

Here is a story that defines why Obama and Hillary will not win the office -

 

I was going in for my driver's license renewal a few weeks back and started talking to the older lady seated next to me. I was asking her 7-year old son if he was there for a driver's license for the hot rod cars he was playing with on the floor. She said the state probably wished they could do that to get more money out of the people in the state (Michigan is currently in the bottom of the states for economy and jobs and a whole lot of stuff). I chuckled and decided to encourage the conversation.

 

Pretty soon the topic turned to the latest election and we both bemoaned the fact that the people of Michigan put Granholm back in office when she has put our state through so much suffering already and it will only get worse. I mentioned how I was a Republican but was really considering Obama in 2008. She was amazed and said the following, exact quote; "That name is WAY too close to Osama. Plus - did you know he is a MUSLIM!??".

 

Now I was a bit surprised at the vehemence of the answer. I then noticed the guy next to her looking our way and nodding his head as well as another lady near us. The older lady continued to rant on a bit about Hillary as well and how no woman should be in the White House.

 

It was an eye-opener for me. It also pushed home, HARD, why neither of those two will win in the long run. I had really hoped we would have a centrist person from one of the parties run for office and win. I do not think that was ever Hillary, but I thought Obama had a chance. I think McCain could fill those shoes from the Republican side but, for some unknown reason, I believe Guiliani will get the nomination.

 

I wish Lieberman would run for the office again, I would back him with donations as well as "feet-on-the-street" work.

 

As to Edwards - I think he is still in a Dan Quayle-type pipe-dream of winning the nomination or the whole sha-bang.

Howdy John - Pics up now.

 

As to the trade, it would depend on what model and options. I would prefer a desktop. As to the 2.5k - depends on the bells and whistles with the unit.

I saw Preacher tossed his wife's car on here so I figured I would throw our travel van out as well.

 

1992 Chevy Custom Van

350ci w/ Automatic Tranny

75k original miles

 

All Leather!!!

Power Windows

4 Captain's chairs that feel like La-Z-Boys

Rear bench sear powers down into a queen size sleeper bed

TV/VCR

Tinted Windows

Brnad new exhaust

 

 

This is a beautiful van. There are two small problems:

 

Needs a new radio - the stock radio just up and quit a couple months back

Small (about the size of a dollar coin) rust spot on the side door.

 

Other then that this is a great van. We bought it for Florida trips and took it down twice then decided we prefer flying.

 

This is outside of Lansing, Michigan.

 

The low, low, GC-special price of $2500/BO. (currently listed locally at $2700)

 

I would consider partial trades if they were newer Apple computers - one of the Intel variety - time to leave windows behind and go with OS X.

 

**Edited for Pics

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Obama or McCain here - I wanted McCain in 2000 but he lost the primaries. Obama could get me to vote Dem in 2008 if the Repubs put up some of these crappy folks who are tossing their names in the hat.

 

I would love it more if there was a valid independent person that had a chance at winning.