DJ Premier

Curious.  Can't seem to recognize any names in the forum threads.

You know what all, what's missing in modern discourse is actually thinking, open debate and the understanding of nuance. In the internet era, everyone grabs on to headlines and basically spews them as simple "facts" that are used to bludgeon the un-nuanced masses.

Facts are rare in public discourse. There are very few undeniable facts in this world. The sky is blue. Is that a fact?

Depends. Yes, during the day. No, not at night. Sometimes not at dusk or dawn and possibly not on other planets. But yes, for mostly 12 hours near the equator on planet earth, the sky is generally blue but not always.

The simple question of asking if the sky is blue can garner various answers depending on the ability of the person to understand nuance and their perceptions of the sky and its color, the time of day the question is asked and the condition of the person you ask.

Debate on policy can never be boiled down to simple facts. It's all nuance. And if you can't really dig into the nuance, then you're just blowing hot air.

Saying that you and your far "right" sites are always "right" and that we need to be "open minded" enough to agree with everything you and those sites say is such a shining example of what I'm calling out that you really have no one else to argue with but yourself. Thank you for your generosity!

Or am I confusing being "right-winged" with being "right"? Ok, then I agree that you are right.

Guys, you really need to give up on ZD. We've been trying to say the same things you're saying to him today for the last 12 years. I dare anyone here to go look up posts from the early 2000's and find any different behavior. All of these arguments have been made before countless times. You'll be going on for another 12 years and nothing will change.

 

 

I do disagree with forcing everyone into a system that needs overhauled first. I feel that we are a few steps ahead of where we should be...assuming of course that there is no other option than a system like Obamacare.

 

First steps should be trying to fix some of the biggest reasons why the costs are so high to begin with.

 

From some of the early reports, it seems that the new system is more expensive in many cases,Which seems to be opposite of how it was sold to the American people.

We've been grappling with high costs for a long time. There are no easy answers. "Waiting" for that problem to be solved to try and overhaul healthcare will cause us to wait a long long time. I'm a believer of doing multiple things at once to try and root out the problems. We do things one at a time and this problem will outlast us all.

 

Again, you can lower costs by bringing in more people. Universal healthcare is a requirement if you want to support the sick and manage cost at the same time. It sucks but its reality. In other words, healthy people must sign up so the sick people get coverage. This is really the reason why republicans don't like obamacare. Republicans want a free market system, even for healthcare. Its the mantra of, take care of yourself and you'll be better off. They don't believe that everyone should be covered. Work hard, stay healthy, eat right and you won't get sick. If you get sick...well, that's too bad. Its the same argument against welfare, social security, or any other government program.

 

But the truth is, they are against it only up to the point it happens to them. There in lies the hypocrisy.

I can't disagree with any of that logic. I just fear that once this is firmly rooted itself into our lives, fixing high cost problems will no longer be a priority...sort of like high gas prices, we are used to paying 3 something a gallon now...no one complains...even if oil fell to historic lows, do you think the gas companies will lower prices?

 

There's really no good reason why a fairly routine hospital stay of maybe a day or two should cost $20,000...and that's just a broad example.

 

I'm afraid that once they have us...we'll be had.

 

Your argument is valid. But it also assumes that obamacare will solve the cost crisis. My opinion is that because you are insuring more of the sick but at the same time signing more healthy people up, the cost equation remains neutral. Cost equations being neutral means that costs will rise over time just like they have in the past before obamacare. So...there are many other things that will need to happen to control cost.

I agree with ZD that we should allow cross-state insurance. I also believe we need to get a handle on frivolous lawsuits. Increase competition by creating cross-state competition. But also get a handle on our legal system such that we all aren't paying for the costs of ridiculous high payouts during lawsuits. If you ask a doctor how much insurance they have to pay to protect themselves, you kinda get why they have to charge higher prices. The whole healthcare pricing model between insurers, doctors and biotech/pharma companies is entirely broken and borderline criminal. So in this case, government should get out of the way of competition but at the same time tighten the legal system around lawsuits.

There are many other things that can be done such as availability of generic drugs, etc. Then you add on the emergency room problem where uninsured clog up the emergency room for the common rash (which ACA should help alleviate to a degree)..... All of these things, plus universal healthcare should bring down costs while at the same time covering all of us who live in the US without bias.

It all seems like common sense. Cover everyone, do some big things to reduce cost.

haha. of course its less enjoyable. when any comment not to your liking is leftist, then you're left with just not liking any comments. I wouldnt find that enjoyable either. =)

I do disagree with forcing everyone into a system that needs overhauled first. I feel that we are a few steps ahead of where we should be...assuming of course that there is no other option than a system like Obamacare.

 

First steps should be trying to fix some of the biggest reasons why the costs are so high to begin with.

 

From some of the early reports, it seems that the new system is more expensive in many cases,Which seems to be opposite of how it was sold to the American people.

We've been grappling with high costs for a long time. There are no easy answers. "Waiting" for that problem to be solved to try and overhaul healthcare will cause us to wait a long long time. I'm a believer of doing multiple things at once to try and root out the problems. We do things one at a time and this problem will outlast us all.

Again, you can lower costs by bringing in more people. Universal healthcare is a requirement if you want to support the sick and manage cost at the same time. It sucks but its reality. In other words, healthy people must sign up so the sick people get coverage. This is really the reason why republicans don't like obamacare. Republicans want a free market system, even for healthcare. Its the mantra of, take care of yourself and you'll be better off. They don't believe that everyone should be covered. Work hard, stay healthy, eat right and you won't get sick. If you get sick...well, that's too bad. Its the same argument against welfare, social security, or any other government program.

But the truth is, they are against it only up to the point it happens to them. There in lies the hypocrisy.

There is only one thing you guys need to ask yourself about healthcare.

It is universally accepted by most objective arguments that In order to eliminate exclusion due to preexisting conditions, you have to have everyone on the system. It's the only way premiums don't massively go up for everyone.

So, you have to ask yourself the question - should insurance companies be allowed to exclude you from coverage because of a preexisting condition? If the answer is yes, then you should argue to repeal obamacare. If the answer is no, then you should support obamacare (although it doesn't mean you can't argue to amend the bad parts out).

I'll say again, if you want to be covered even if you have a preexisting condition, then you have to have everyone on the system to offset the costs.

Too long we have spent too much of our hard earned money propping up governments, feeding their people and fixing their incompetant leaderships mistakes. When in crisis or threatened everyone yells help us USA, but the rest of the time they dog us in the press and resent us. Screw em, let em kill themselves and each other, let em starve, let em invade one another and destroy each other's culture.

 

Aren't you glad this isn't mine or our govts true line of thought?

 

First off we are not the "most corrupt country on the planet" nor are we the "most bankrupt country on the planet". Arguably we are the most powerful.

 

Second without our funding the EEC would collapse. Without our aid many 3rd world govts would collapse. We actually export very little so that isn't truly a fear for us.

 

We have done like the 1800's British Empire and crapped the bed with our foreign policy. We have expanded too far and now we are in crisis at home and all those folks we helped before are now disparaging us when the teets run dry.

 

Lastly pull your head out of the sand, the SAS probably has spys in our upper government and monitors us as well. The Brits practically invented modern spying techniques.

Couldn't agree more.

What Snowden exposed is nothing new. It's what every modern country has been doing since the dawn of politics and national borders. We all spy on each other the best we can. But it's also an unspoken truth. When spoken out loud, people will speak of outrage but will offer no alternatives because deep inside, we all know that this happens all the time and will continue to happen all the time.

The only difference here is that regarding the reach of the NSA into private citizens of the US. There is a red line that can be crossed but I think the jury is out regarding whether that line has been crossed.

This has been going on for over 10 years. There's nothing new. If you guys are interested, go read the battles between ZD and myself back 10 years. Political discussion here and in many places hasn't evolved in over a decade. I don't see it changing anytime soon. Everyone should take a step back, realize that ZD will foam at the mouth every other day and others will egg him on and then someone will come in threatening to shut it down then it all resets again back to the beginning. =)

The wisest quote in this thread is

A debate among like-thinkers is a statement and that's boring.

Except its not really debate that happens here. It's just bickering. But that's not boring.

Traitor or Hero are designations that usually don't settle until its been through the test of time. Once we see what results from all of this, we can then determine whether he's a traitor or hero. Quite possibly neither. Just your basic run of the mill whistleblower.

Based on the above definition of Espionage, I guess he could be tried for espionage.

As for escalating through proper channels, I agree that eventually he would have been snubbed out before it got out too far. At least that's how they make it happen in the movies.

I think prepping for possibly tyranny from our government for which we would rise up in arms is radical thinking at best. We need to evolve as a society beyond 1700's thinking.

There are limits to every right. And times have changed. I cannot yell "fire!" in a crowded theatre. I also cannot own and carry an RPG. It's all about lines and where they are drawn. Simply making an overcasting 2nd Amendment right defense is quite narrow.

Once we all agree that there is a line, its a matter of deciding where it should be drawn.

better to under-estimate, invest the money and then pay off what you owe the following year. I don't believe in giving the government an interest free loan and neither do most companies.

I say do away with gun control. Free high powered long range 50 caliber sniper rifles for every gun owner and their crazy cousins. Buy 1 get 1 Apache helicopter for free.

I agree that the last 5 presidents were democrats. Especially compared to today's extremists in the mainstream right.

We should create another housing bubble by deregulating. And then everyone can get jobs in the bubble.

I think I may have made someone upset. *bashful*

On a somewhat related note, if you have not listened to "This American Life's" two part series on Harper High School, you really, really should.

 

We spent five months at Harper High School in Chicago, where last year alone 29 current and recent students were shot. 29. We went to get a sense of what it means to live in the midst of all this gun violence, how teens and adults navigate a world of funerals and Homecoming dances. We found so many incredible and surprising stories, this show is a two-parter.

 

Part 1: http://www.thisameri...school-part-one

Part 2: http://www.thisameri...school-part-two

HOLY COW. That was absolutely fascinating. I was compelled to donate right after reading. And I will once I finish Part 2.

The country is completely inefficient. We don't invest in our infrastructure. They have the population bickering about gay marriage, big and scary "fiscal" cliffs, wars, abortion, gun-control, all while ignoring our core structure. Imagine if all the money that has flowed to the banks, defense contractors and corporate shareholders went into a rail system, alternative energy, rebuild efforts for our cities that get demolished by floods, turning our education around to an education system rather than a for-profit loan business.

 

We could easily be best in the world at these things, but instead of our wealth being spent on stuff that benefits society, it's flowing to a very small set of people.

 

FEMA failed because it is being ran like a business trying to save money and they were completely unprepared to handle an emergency like that.... not because the people were shooting at their helicopters

Well, truth be told...people did shoot at caravans and helicopters....when they arrived a few weeks later.

I have a close friend and I won't say his name because some of you here know him, but when Katrina hit he was sent there and ended up killing 6 people who were firing on his convoy while they attempted to help people escape the flood waters. He previously did 2 tours in Iraq and one in Afghanistan and during his 3 tours he was only in two firefights and only one resulted in the deaths of those he was fighting. These low life scumbags were exploiting the tragedy and chose to try and kill the very people sent to help them. They did this so they could steal flat screen TVs and loot people's houses. The one guy with diapers and water and the like is not who was shot for looting. Only those who failed to heed warnings over loud speakers or who chose to fight the Army. Stupid.

 

People forcibly evacuated from their homes and businesses should not have to worry about looters and that is why the National Guard and other agencies are tasked with protecting property. The media always wants to turn everything into a drama, truth is those weren't blood thirsty folks out there. They just had a dirty job and were forced to do it. Shame on those that prey on their neighbors in times of disaster.

Absolutely. I agree very much. But let's not make this thread about Katrina. I realized that when I took the quote snippet that I should have left the katrina part out. This thread is really about 1 person's (Jay-Z's) candid viewpoint on things related to poverty, his roots in it, his dealings on the wrong side of the path and what he feels contributed to it while also not trying to skirt his own misgivings and doings.

On a somewhat related note, if you have not listened to "This American Life's" two part series on Harper High School, you really, really should.

 

We spent five months at Harper High School in Chicago, where last year alone 29 current and recent students were shot. 29. We went to get a sense of what it means to live in the midst of all this gun violence, how teens and adults navigate a world of funerals and Homecoming dances. We found so many incredible and surprising stories, this show is a two-parter.

 

Part 1: http://www.thisameri...school-part-one

Part 2: http://www.thisameri...school-part-two

Will take a look. Sounds interesting! Thanks for sharing.

http://www.npr.org/2010/11/16/131334322/the-fresh-air-interview-jay-z-decoded

One of the best interviews ever done with a hip hop artist. A level of candor rarely found. For the record, I don't like hip hop. I never have. But I do understand the roots of it although I rarely agree with the delivery. There are fundamental reasons for some of the angst and definitely a level of immaturity. But it comes from somewhere more deep than most people want to even understand.

I suggest listening to the audio so you get the listen to the tone of the conversation. It was really an honest exchange rarely found on record.

Interesting quote on poverty below.

 

That's the American ideal. Poor people don't like talking about poverty because even though they might live in the projects surrounded by other poor people and have, like, ten dollars in the bank, they don't like to think of themselves as poor. It's embarrassing. When you're a kid, even in the projects, one kid will mercilessly snap on another kid over minor material differences, even though by the American standard, they're both broke as poop.

 

The burden of poverty isn't just that you don't always have the things you need, it's the feeling of being embarrassed every day of your life, and you'd do anything to lift that burden. As kids we didn't complain about being poor; we talked about how rich we were going to be and made moves to get the lifestyle we aspired to by any means we could. And as soon as we had a little money, we were eager to show it.

 

I remember coming back home from doing work out of state with my boys in a caravan of Lexuses that we parked right in the middle of Marcy. I ran up to my mom's apartment to get something and looked out the window and saw those three new Lexuses gleaming in the sun, and thought, "Man, we doin' it." In retrospect, yeah, that was kind of ignorant, but at the time I could just feel that stink and shame of being broke lifting off of me, and it felt beautiful. The sad poop is that you never really shake it all the way off, no matter how much money you get.

 

I watched the coverage of the hurricane, but it was painful. Helicopters swooping over rooftops with people begging to be rescued — the helicopters would leave with a dramatic photo, but didn't bother to pick up the person on the roof. George Bush doing his flyby and declaring that the head of FEMA was doing a heckuva job. The news media would show a man running down the street, arms piled high with diapers or bottles of water, and call him a looter, with no context for why he was doing what he was doing. I'm sure there were a few idiots stealing plasma TVs, but even that has a context — anger, trauma. It wasn't like they were stealing TVs so they could go home and watch the game. I mean, where were they going to plug them poops in? As the days dragged on and the images got worse and worse — old ladies in wheelchairs dying in front of the Superdome — I kept thinking to myself, This can't be happening in a wealthy country. Why isn't anyone doing anything?

Any program will create loopholes. Private industries will capitalize on manipulating loopholes. I can't imagine that you should get disability because your town has no sit down jobs. There should be a phase out benefit that includes relocation so you aren't mooching forever. Kinda like workfare, but for disability. Maybe Clinton when she wins in 2016 will initiate it. 😄

Btw. I love NPR. Great reporting if you read the entire article.