soul .gc

Nah...pointless to debate something here if we cannot keep talking about the subject as it moves forward. No comment or anything...just closed. It is your forum, not mine so that is your right. Ham...if we ever do this again, lets do it on our forums...at least it should not get closed there.

I need Oxygen to give me a pick-me-up when feeling lethargic, there is nothing better then walking into a Casino that pumps in pure Oxygen and feeling that rush....as well as the sound of gambling going on...I feel like I am home then.

Any admin gonna answer us? Just looking for a little common courtesy on why the topic was closed please.

Nowhere does it say that you cannot question God. It is part of learning abot yourself and your faith when you question what happens and look for the answers as to why it happened. Since an admin read this...care to reopen the other post so we can continue? It was closed..who knows why...If you do not want discussions here then say so and I wil go elsewhere with my debates with Ham.

That is no fun. Guess someone does not like our subject even though we kept to their rules and kept it clean.

Why did the first evolution post get closed yet again?

Continuing from Ham's post: "My way is better than yours because mine is based on science" HAHAHAHAHAHA--the root of the issue! "This is not true. You do not understand the concept of nature's constancy." I even pointed you to several other articles and sites proving that nature is NOT constant. Let's examine this. You say Nature is Constant. By this you mean that Nature as a whole is never changing...that is the definition of your sentence unless you are using some new-age meaning for the word constant. This is NOT true. Nature is NOT constant, it has some laws that are constant but as a whole it is NOT constant. "You don't appreciate nature one bit." I do appreciate nature. I do not appreciate water garbage. "You cannot argue with me on the fact that God is a thought impediment." Hold on...I am about to do what you say I cannot. God is not an impediment...he is helpful in thought processes, not hurtfull...to me at least. "And where the hell do you get that 97% figure?" Out of thin air actually hahaha...I didnot go research to see how many people follow a religion in the world compared to how many are atheists. I randomly selected a high figure...I will try to find a more exact count. "God cares the same about a large white male trying to get a date to the school dance as the infertile mother trying to have a child as the child wishing he had eyesight as the man dying in obscurity from his friends? Prayer is hypocritical. The people who pray the most self-righteously are the people who don't need it." hahahaha....and once again the elitist atheist view. How do you know what people pray about? How many pray and what they pray for? Until you understand religion a bit more please stop with these comments. God cares for us all, he cares and helps the mother who passed away and helps the guy looking for a date, he cares and helps us all in different ways. To say that Prayer is hypocritical is just asking for a fight though. "God is just someone you thank when it works out and a name you don't mention when it doesn't. " Actually I thank those who got the work done or the task done. I thank God for the overall way of life and the big picture. I thanks him for my family and our happiness. I question him when someone dies or something unpleasant happens and I ask for guidance and suport as we find our way through those situations.

"Of course nature changes. Of course everything transforms. You still misinterpret my basic three word sentence. This is all evidence for it, not against it. Everything is goverened by simple natural laws, nature is constant" If nature changes then it is NOT constant. Enough said.

Here is one more on Natures Constants: "Recent observations of metallic atoms in gas clouds 12 billion light years from Earth may help to confirm the theories of four physicists who have been working for over a decade in virtual obscurity on an outlandish notion -- that cherished fundamental constants of nature, such as the speed of light, might not be constant after all. Using the world's largest telescope, the 30-foot-wide Keck Telescope in Hawaii, a team of experimentalists led by John Webb of the University of New South Wales in Sydney, Australia, observed patterns of light absorption that could not be explained without assuming a change in a basic constant of nature called the fine structure constant, a combination of 3 other universal constants: electric charge, light speed, and Planck's constant, named for the German physicist Max Planck and important in the study of atoms and subatomic particles. " "that cherished fundamental constants of nature" That sentencei n particular is key to our argument. There ARE laws of nature that are constant...but ALL of nature is NOT constant. This all brought to your from: http://www.sciencenewsweek.com/articles/constants.htm And from : http://www.kirschner-seminare.de/Artikel/M...icCausality.htm "David Bohm begins his book Causality and Chance in Modern Physics with "In nature nothing remains constant. Everything is in a perpetual state of transformation, motion and change." So....can we end this line of debate on Nature? I think I have proven and given you scientific articles galore on the fact that All of Nature is NOT constant.

Here is a good tidbit on constants for you: "In 1999, Webb and others measured 30 quasar spectra, focusing on absorption lines caused by magnesium and iron atoms. The lines seemed to have shifted slightly relative to measurements made in the laboratory, implying a small change in the fine-structure constant2. It was a provocative and controversial result. This second survey embraces more quasar sources and looks at absorption lines from a range of other elements. It gives the researchers four independent sets of data from which to extract values of the fine-structure constant, as well as increasing the precision of the measurements. A change of the same order of magnitude persists in all the data, indicating that the 'constant' has indeed increased over time. If confirmed by other measurements, the finding will overturn the idea that the fundamental constants define the canvas on which the universe was painted. The picture and the canvas, it seems, may have evolved together." From http://www.nature.com/nsu/010816/010816-8.html Here is one on the Universe Expanding: "The Hubble Space Telescope (HST) has completed its measurement of the Hubble constant, a measure of how fast the Universe is expanding and a cornerstone of our understanding of the age and size of the Universe1. The final value of the constant seems to be just about spot-on. The finding marks the attainment of one of the HST's primary goals. "We are literally done," says Wendy Freedman, who has led the HST Hubble constant project since the telescope was launched 11 years ago." From: http://www.nature.com/nsu/010607/010607-8.html Here is an article that supports my comment of how things can be constant in a "perfect" environment: "Stopping light sounds impossible -- Einstein's theory is popularly interpreted as saying that the speed of light is always constant. But this applies only to light travelling in a vacuum. When it passes through other materials, light is often slowed down, which is why a light ray bends as it passes from air to water or glass. This slowing is generally small, however, and light still passes through most materials at phenomenal speeds."

"your inept attempts to disprove it? " Well so much for keeping it nice. Here we go then. "Anyone who has studied physics (the science of the laws of nature) knows how daunting the task is of learning the philosophical and mathematical formalisms needed to fully comprehend, express, and apply natural laws. Complicating this situation is the fact that some of these laws are still "under construction"-being debated by the scientific community. Moreover, today we have two fundamental approaches to studying the natural world (quantum theory and Einsteinian physics)." I am not saying that there are laws...I am saying that ALL of Nature is NOT constant. I do not have to disprove your 5 examples if you cannot prove to me that nature is always constant...since it is not. If Nature was always constant then we could NOT have mutations, evolution, etc...due to the fact that these anolmalies would not be allowed do to the constancy. So please continue with your big words and your youngish "I am always right attitude" I was the one that called them water garbage and I still do. I do not respect them for what they do...they have a job to do and are doing it...good for them, they are water garbage to me. "Evolution is pure science, pure fact. We know nature is constant" This is the biggest load of malarkey I have seen written yet. It is not pure fact. It is lots of conjecture based off of experiments done in todays environments. "You say there is nothing that can be proven about the origins of life? That's entirely untrue. Are you not a friend of Mr. Oparin? He showed you a very simplistic way life could have started, but you say there is "fact ZERO."" I also told you a way life COULD have started...what makes your way better then mine...ohh wait...it is that ever-present FAITH you have iin your way that I have in mine...I am not saying mine is better, I am just saying I do not believe you are correct in your factual depiction of the beginning of life. "Believing in God is one of the biggest impediments to clear thought that I can think of." Good thing you do not believe then. I, however, do believe and it helps me think clearer most times. "Scientists love to admit their wrong, but Christians can't" So it is just christians? What about buddhists, islamics, Jews, etc....? Is 97percent of the world wrong? "Is God going to help you find the answer to your social problem when some 3rd world Christians are coping with the loss of his mother during her 7th pregnancy?" YES he will. The belief in God and the faith that he is listening and helping guide you through life and the knowledge that he is the ultimate power with the ability to multitask (that is do more then one thing at once). He is able to take in the dead mother as well as guide us in our problems...all at the same time. "You can turn to God all you want, it's all hypocrisy. Prayer before school football games gets me the worst, I can't stand it. God, watch over these middle class kids who have time to hit each other during their leisure and will never know what it means to not have 1 meal a day. Makes me sick." Have you ever not done the prayer? Stood back and said, "hey, I do not believe in God so I am not praying". Why not? Because of what others will think? If you are so worried about the third world countries and families who cannot eat each day then join the peace core or call Sally Struthers and donate 50 cents to feed a family a week...but that is not part of this debate so lets drop that line already. "If you think we'll find other worlds and other cultures, not to say that we won't, you're being anthropocentric about alien life forms" As to this...what does this matter? I sure think there are other civilizations out there somewhere. Thank you for the new terminology for us all though.

hehe...I saw that Camel...whoever banned said 5000 minutes.

Any Admins that read this..the filter is currently OFF on the Mmmm server.

"What would it feel like if you were part of a minority" I am slowly becoming a minority. As a white male we are becoming discriminated against. I tried to apply to the post office a few years back...I was told by them that unless I was Black or a veteran I would not be hired. In Atlanta, where I lived for a few years, by 2010 the white male will statistically be the minority. Atlanta gives a weighted advantage to contracts if it is a minority owned business. As to the rest of the world....NATO is not just England and America...it is many other nations. NATO intervened not the US and England. Sure, the US and England throw their weight around more then others but Russia used to and so did Germany. China will be soon and they are already trying...the same with Iraq (although we are about to shut them up). As to the whole world being a conspiracy...I am sure it is. The whole world is conspiring against Croatia....better watch out.

"How can you be sure that the Bible is actually what these people believed in? I mean, not every book that has been written is true" There are lots of stories relating back to Christ and papers people wrote and letters they wrote about him and his miracles. Never once have I said I believe completely in the Bible. I actually think that the Bible is wrong in spots. I believe that it was written by men and therefore it has some Bias in it. I DO believe in the overall message of the bible and the fact that God does exist and that he created us in his image. Here is one example I believe the Bible is wrong....The Flood. I believe the Flood did happen in one part of the world and to the people involved this was the only place they knew. This is when the Black Sea was formed and flooded all the surrounding regions. I think that a lot of the Bible has references to things that were VERY biased. For example, at the end of the Bible there is a message about changing or adding anything to the Bible--God would not say this, this was most likely put in by some Pope at sometime during the Holy Wars but who knows. The one thing I do believein and believe wholeheartedly is that God does exist and is watching over us all.

"What is Canada but a country full of immigrants?" You just described every country out there except maybe the Middle East where Man started. If you were born in Croatia then you are a croatian...if you were born in Canada then you are Canadian...simple as that. One of the things that irks me most is the PC in the country..As an example I will use African Americans....there are very few of these since the majority of people who call themselves African American came have been living here for several generations...making them Americans with black skin.

Why will you not admint that ALL of Nature is not constant? It is a very true statement but I am tired of arguing that line. "The same "water garbage" that thrived in the primitive oceans" IF...and I say IF, it thrived in the oceans it was becuase it was given to the world by a higher power. However, there is no proof that it existed then so who is to say. "The dubiousness comes into play when they right the Bible." How can they be dubious to write in something that is what the believe in...the same as scientists writing down what they see after they perform an experiment today....they wrote what they saw at the times of their lives. "This is the first time in this argument's 11 pages that I have been offended. You try and equate Creationism, a faith based pseudo-science at best to evolution: pure unadulterated science and fact. Faith in pseudo-science and faith and science are night and day. There's no chemical test to test for the presence of God in solution, but there are several ones to test for presence of glucose. All faiths are not created equal. Believing in the church and God is not anywhere near to believing in tried and tested conceptual science. Don't equate the two, ever. " The are not Night and Day...Faith is there for each of them. Evolutionism is NOT pure science and fact...it is PURE conjecture based on experiments we can perform under conditions in todays environments. There is fact ZERO about how life was formed on the planet that either side of this debate can prove. "Believing in the church and God is not anywhere near to believing in tried and tested conceptual science." I agree completely with you here. Believing in God is much more powerful then science. When you are on your deathbed which will bring you greater ease? When you are at a troubled time in your life and need guidance? When you are extremely happy with life and want to thank someone? God will be the one you turn to in these moments (well maybe not you Ham, but the majority of people....even non-christian religions will look to their God in these cases). Last night I went outside and was doing some stargazing. As I looked up at the sky I was amazed at how many stars you can see with the naked eye. It is amazing what God has given us...someday we wil travel those stars and see what it is like in other galaxies, other worlds, other cultures. We will see how God has affected them and brought them into existence. Also---why is it that just Ham and I are debating this? No one else has opinions or wants to weigh in with thoughts? come on people...stop sidelining and jump on in.

"Everything follows laws. Any possible idea you can think of will never, ever contradict any of these and other laws" There is not a law for everything. Why when you get drunk do you sleep with ugly women? Is there a law for this? Cause when I get drunk I will not sleep with an ugly woman (that is a lie). Ham---open your eyes and see I am not fighting you on this...I am trying to correct you generalizing everything. I agree that there are laws....but to say that All of Nature is constant is just VERY untrue. You keep using specifics in your examples like the Lion...what about Humans, we are meat eaters...but what about the vegetarians? On the Infinity argument...I will supply some examples when I get to work on Monday form Scientific American and other journals....I doubt I will get 30 though just because it will be a waste of time. The Universe is Finite in size but is constantly expanding. Because we cannot grasp the idea of the size we sometimes, erringly, refer to it as infinite. If you want a good example of Infinite...look at God and his abilities. "Don't ever equate evolution with creationism." But I did....and still do according to your theorem. "I believe we evolved because there is evidence." I never said we have not evolved. I said we did not come from a piece of water garbage floating in the steaming oceans billions of years ago. However you look at it you have no evidence we evolved from that either. You have no evidence of the Big Bang. You have Hypothesis and theories but no substantial proof. "it's not something debatable, or anything conjured in my mind based on what dubious men said thousands of years ago." It is very debatable....that is what we are currently doing. The "Dubious men" you mention were actual historic figures. There is documented proof of many of the people in the bible as well as the writings they provided for the bible. In my mind it is convenient how we have become a "scientific" culture and people are starting to have no use for God anymore. We are constantly moving towards a "I have to see it to believe it" attitude as you said you, yourself, have. The thing you do not realize is that in fighting so hard to prove your belief you are exhibiting a HUGE amount of Faith in Evolution....the same amount of Faith I show in God, how is that different? We both have beliefs, they are just not the same....but BOTH require that all powerful FAITH.

LOL..just read all these. Swearing, Cursing, profanity, dirty mouth...whatever you wanna call it is something I sure do a lot of in CS. I also swear when out with the "guys" or when really drunk...which is usually with the guys. Does this make me ignorant? Depends on your opinion of what ignorant is...I however am relatively smart making quite a bit of cash each year so I would tend to disagree with you. Fat makes an argument about swearing in different situations. This is about how you act in society. To play the Devils Advocate...why should Ic are what other people think of me? It is not a Sin to swear...only to take the Lord's name in vain. If I want to say A-s-s instead of Butt it actually sounds much better to me. Should you swear at work? Sure if you are a construction guy or some blue collar worker it is probably much more ok. If you are white collar and sit in an office all day then you probably should not when folks can hear you..unless you like looking for a job. But never should someone swearing be correlated to ignorance. Some say they cannot find better terms to describe situations...I think most of the time it describes them crystal clear.

Ok..I was hasty..I did not see your apology buried in that text so thanks for that. Now as to the rest of this. "It's getting exasperating on my end, leave it alone. You don't understand this concept of nature being constant." I am thinking I understand it fine and it is you who is having the problem. By definistion something is constant if you get the same results time after time after time....that is NOT nature. If you want to pick out specific Laws of NAture and say they are constant I willmost likely agree (depending which ones you choose). But to use Nature as a whole encompassing term is incorrect..Human Nature is not Constant for one very good example. "Our gravity would change, but you notice how this hasn't happened? Here's your argument: "what if nature wasnt constant, then it wouldnt be constant."" No..here is my argument...Nature is NOT constant...but this is completely off the topic. Definition of Infinity - "In general, infinity is the quality or state of endlessness or having no limits in terms of time, space, or other quantity." from http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,...i809150,00.html If the universe is constantly expanding it does have an end. Any number of scientific magazines will point you to the fact the universe is growing...thereby meaning it does have an end...just not one we can reach...thereby making it NOT infinite. To use your term...Ugh! "God is real because the Bible says he is real, your church says he is real, the people around you tell you he is real, and you think he is real" This same argument can be used for Evolution. You believe we evolved because books say we did, because scientists you talk to tell you so, because you this it happened...thereby making it real to you.

"Does the fact that the universe is growing make it not infinite? Of course it doesn't!" YES---by every scientific explanation for infinity I was waiting on the apology you had said would be forthcoming but I guess it is not coming? By saying the Earth will become part of the sun then the sun will implode implies that the earth will be mostly vaporized...sure a few scraps may float around to some plant or even be big enough to land on some far distant planet as a comet and wipe out their civilization..anything is possible but you are grasping at straws to avoid the apology. "What's your foundation for this? And that Mt Olympus analogy you use is not too far from innacurate, despite your intentions. Religions fade in and fade out, as a result of science taking the place of what their gods once did" Ummm...The Bible, The Koran, The Urantia Book, etc.... is my foundation for God picking us. As to my apple analogy. Sure it was an extreme but it is still the same idea. Lets take decay. Decay is different for different substances...why? If everything was constant wouldn't it be that same rate of decay per item? BUT we have outside factors, Wind, Rain, UV Rays, etc...that can affect decay and cause it to change....thereby making it NOT constant. In a perfect environment, with no outside factors 2 identical things will decay at the same rate sure....but what on this planet is in a perfect environment...nothing. Let's take GRavity....right now it is a constant due to our position in the solar system and the rate at which the planet spins and rotate around the sun---what happens if our rotation declines a little, this would change gravity thereby making it no longer constant. "Why are you so touchy on this? This is not intended to be inflammatory, you made it inflammatory because it made you think about something that could be contradictory to your established belief" Obviously you did not read what you wrote again so I will pick out the comments I was talking about specifically: 1) "God exists because humans want him too. If you can't see this, religion and faith have made you blind" 2) "This is a simple fact that we have to agree on here"

First off: "There are beginning and ends to certain events. Our earth, for example, had a beginning. It won't have an end, however. When the sun goes nova over the next severel eons, life on Earth will have died long ago. The Earth lives on, with or without us. We know this because nature is constant" As to the universe being Infinite. I will link you to sume scientific websites and articles shortly that show how the universe is Growing---thereby making it NOT infinite. The universe is expanding over time so your one hypothesis is true...we could not start right now and visit every planet due to the fact that the universe is continually growing in size. As to your opinion on Why God is here--I believe you are wrong. I believe that God picked us and showed himself to us and that is why we believe. Not because we picked him out of thin air and said; "hey--I am tired of Zeus and the gang on Mt Olympus...lets get a new god, I am not feeling creative today either so let's just call him God." "The reason things change are constant. This is not a concept you can fail to understand if we are to continue." I understand nature. I disagree completely with you though. To use talk you are fond of...You can NOT fail to realize that you are wrong. Some factors of nature are constant--some are not. The reason things change CAN change. Let's see....an easy example. I can take 2 apples from the same tree and neither look the same. I can leave them sit on my counter for 2 weeks and one will turn different colors then its friend. If you want to say that the BASIC laws of nature are constant I will go so far as to agree with this. Gravity is constant (so far), etc.... Read what you wrote again: "Does this trouble you? God sure is wonderful, and benevolent, but He was created by humans. Humans have Gods because they want to. We compound intangability here too: the mind (incorporeal) creates a deity (incorporeal). God exists because humans want him too. If you can't see this, religion and faith have made you blind. Does this mean Christianity is bad? Of course not, it's responsible for great acts of humanity (and inhumanity). This is a simple fact that we have to agree on here. Humans create deities from their minds. To phrase this another way, God is a figment of our imaginations. This is purely objective, I hope you won't be unecessarily offended by my thoughts." That last paragraph was so inflammatory you must have typed it on purpose. If not then learn from this please. You debate fairly well but you need to stop using the inflammatory comments, they only work to make people angry.

When you say Nature is Constant you imply that nothing ever changes. If you want to say that Nature can change and that luck plays a role then you refute the term Constant in the way in which you are using it. We are just arguing semantics now though. As to the idea of Infinity---We all have different opinions and yours moves along the ideas of parallel universes, not infinite numbers of them. You are saying that there are an infinite number and that some represent ours but just a tiny difference in each one, "The path not taken" view, or as you said...1 less hydrogen molecule in the room. This is hard to wrap your mind around and I for one...doubt it highly. As for the Earth ending..you are the one who said it would not end if the sun went SuperNova....I was just correcting you. It will end. That is an ending and you asked why there had to be one...becuase the sun will implode. "The fact that humans try to measure the universe based on our totally inconsequential planet orbiting a meaningless star is pure weakness. It's fine for our day to day life. It means nothing in infinity." If this is truly your thought then what is the point of living? The pure hopelessness of the future should be enough to never want to have kids to expose them to the same hopelessness and despair. We are nothing and never will be...hell, lets just all end it now. "We did pick God. Don't ever mistake this." It is comments like these why I am hate arguing with immature people. We were going along fine until you make remarks like these. This is a debate on many things, not an area to tell people what to do and what not to do. I am thinking we are about done on this. For every post I put up you have something to counter it and the same in reverse. We are getting nowhere and I am tired of it. I will move forward knowing that you will never believe in a higher power, while I do believe in this power. Good luck in school Ham, I will leave with one last question---Why go to school and move forward and have kids? What is the point? All that is waiting is dirt and a pine box....isn't that depressing? Ok...so that was 3 questions.

My vote goes to Mini - Fatty - Rev Since I have known them forever it seems. Back to the days when I was an Mmmm with Mr and Wilco and a few others---those were the days. Then we left to form Survivors of Stupidity, then I left for EQ and came back to Th3Fall3N. As for the new crowd: Barto gets the "I talk more then anyone on the Mic" award Contra gets the "Girlz Kick Arse" Award J gets the "I love Oilrig" award (you have to share it with Ham though) Adam gets the "I knife everyone and laugh" award Bob gets the "Soul and I have a love-hate relationship sometimes" award That is all I can think of right now--But my favs will always be the old crew that made Mmmm what it is today and got lots of us hooked on this game.

I only used the terms as an example of a beginning for Evolution. In my opinion there is no way we evolved that way. Yet again we go back to Nature. Nature is not constant. Some of the laws of nature are constant. If Nature were constant we would not have trees with 2 trunks, we would not have more then one species of birds, you would not be able to breed a new race of dog, etc....If things were constant there would be no room for change or luck. If you want to say most of Natures laws are constant that is fine....but Nature, itself, is not a constant and never will be. In my opinion the Bible is not recorded history in the Beginning. I believe that is summation from God as told to Moses. So I do not count that as recorded history since it was relayed as Word of Mouth. One other point I will stick in also back to Bob's comment on the flood. I believe the flood only happened in one part of the world. I believe it was at the Black Sea and surrounding countries, which did flood and stay mostly flooded for many years. I can go further on this but will leave it for now. No Ham...as to your viewing of the Sci-fi channel. You are talking about parallel universes. You are describing what happens when I wake up and brush my teeth today here...but yet in Universe_02 I did not, in universe_03 I only brushed half as long, in Universe_04 I had sex while brushing my teeth....on and on. Let me know when you come up with the worm-hole device so we can go travel these universes.....I think Fox had a good show about just this subject. As to an end to the Earth when the Sun goes SuperNova....it will End. That is fact. The planet will be vaporized in the explosion. As to no bounds or limits...that is wrong. The universe is constantly expanding. It is expanding slowly outwards over time. We did not pick God, he picked us, as well as created us. As unfathomable as God sounds to you and the idea of heaven...the idea we all evolved from a tiny, microscopic piece of water garbage is even more unbelievable to me.