Organized Rushers

[hoojee15]

So some OP of this server told me that when there are like 4 tanks at the same time the best strategy for survivors is to rush ahead and leave your downed teammates behind and try to get like 100-200 more points. Such a fantastic idea huh. Then why not you amend the rule of the server, add one article "rushing ahead and abandoning teammates under 4 or more tanks are considered playing wisely and smart and will neither be warned nor kicked". That makes perfect sense doesn't it. So every player will know that the OPs of this fantastic server support rushing under "special conditions" and will permanently ban anyone who oppose it. Authorized rushing, yeah!

Edited July 29, 2011 by hoojee15

[Elegant]

Server rules and I quote (push H for server rules!):

 

You will be kicked if you rush off alone. Stick together. Only justified rushing is allowed.

 

First off 3 of us made it into the safe room, so we had a small group. Secondly, we were 80-90% through the map attempting to climb out of the sewers in No Mercy with 4 tanks banging us around. I think it's completely justified. Be that as it may though that does not give you the right to start swearing and insulting cras in any such manner.

[JackieChan]

Let's run through a couple scenarios here.

 

1. A couple people are incapped, several Tanks are up, everyone is together. What should you do? Get those incapped people up and try to kill those Tanks.

 

2. Most of your team is down (8 incaps, 2 standing - doesn't have to be exactly this number), several Tanks are up. What should you do? Rush your butt off.

 

Ask yourself this each time you think you should rush: Am I going to be able to pick up a downed survivor or two with the rest of my team? Yes? Stay there. No? Leg it.

 

Plus, you didn't describe the entire situation in a lot of detail either. What exactly happened at the time?

 

Server rules and I quote (push H for server rules!):

 

You will be kicked if you rush off alone. Stick together. Only justified rushing is allowed.

 

First off 3 of us made it into the safe room, so we had a small group. Secondly, we were 80-90% through the map attempting to climb out of the sewers in No Mercy with 4 tanks banging us around. I think it's completely justified. Be that as it may though that does not give you the right to start swearing and insulting cras in any such manner.

 

(Made after I posted)

This falls into the second scenario I described. This sounded completely justified to me.

Edited July 29, 2011 by JackieChan

[crasx]

I am the admin that banned HooJee.

 

Here is the situation:

We were on no-mercy in the map before you enter the hospital (c8m3_sewers), and I was on a team with HooJee and several other regulars. Of course I died in the first hallway because i'm a pro. So I was ghosting around watching people and helping my team.

We had just made it past the narrow hallway and we were down the hall from the final ladder when the other team spawned 4 tanks. So they tried to fight them for a minute and there were about 5-6 people left. So 3 of them pushed past the tanks when the other 3 were incapped and made it to the safe room.

HooJee was very aggravated by this and claimed they rushed to the end and if they hadn't rushed all 6 of them would have made it. I disagreed with this and he then proceeded to insult his team and specifically me.

Here is a screenshot of him insulting me (hence the permanent ban)

 

He then continued to argue with me on steam, so I asked the people who were in the server when I banned him what there opinion was and here is there response

 

HooJee I understand your anger about people leaving you for dead, but there was no reason to yell at me. I use my best judgement and admit when I am wrong, in this case I verified my opinion on "no rush" and it was confirmed.

 

Sorry to see you go

[hoojee15]

I want to mention that when tanks spawned there were at least 7 survivors alive (and up) (I saw 7, should be 9, since we only lost 1 when we jumped down the sewer), and then ppl in front just rushed ahead to flee from tanks and caused two of us incapped fighting the tank. 3 is the number of survivors that made into saferoom. Since they were just fleeing on their own and did not keep the formation, they suffered heavy casualties on the way. So you will say that you should rush ahead even with 7 to 9 survivors alive and up? I would be that furious if only 3 ppl were up and all others were down when tanks spawned.

 

Let's run through a couple scenarios here.

 

1. A couple people are incapped, several Tanks are up, everyone is together. What should you do? Get those incapped people up and try to kill those Tanks.

 

2. Most of your team is down (8 incaps, 2 standing), several Tanks are up. What should you do? Rush your butt off.

 

Ask yourself this each time you think you should rush: Am I going to be able to pick up a downed survivor or two with the rest of my team? Yes? Stay there. No? Leg it.

 

Plus, you didn't describe the entire situation in a lot of detail either. What exactly happened at the time?

 

Server rules and I quote (push H for server rules!):

 

You will be kicked if you rush off alone. Stick together. Only justified rushing is allowed.

 

First off 3 of us made it into the safe room, so we had a small group. Secondly, we were 80-90% through the map attempting to climb out of the sewers in No Mercy with 4 tanks banging us around. I think it's completely justified. Be that as it may though that does not give you the right to start swearing and insulting cras in any such manner.

 

(Made after I posted)

This falls into the second scenario I described. This sounded completely justified to me.

Edited July 29, 2011 by hoojee15

[JackieChan]

If those Tanks are riding your back with those people were incapped, it makes no sense to try to pick them up when you know you're not going to be able to. However, if those Tanks aren't even in visible sight yet (you KNOW that they are a ways off, or if they just spawned), I would try to pick up my teammates and attempt to heal them. There could be all 10 survivors alive and 9 of them incapped and this the situation described by Elegant and crasx would merit justifiable rushing.

 

I even have a whole thing outlined about rushing in the Steam group.

[hoojee15]

When tanks spawned there were at least 7 ppl alive and up. Yeah we fighted the tanks for a while but only 4 or 5 of us. The rest were just staying way far from the tank and watching and then rushed ahead when they saw ppl fighting the tank were down (of course you cannot fight 4 tanks with 4 ppl).

 

Rushing and abandoning teammates CAUSED that only 3 ppl made it to the saferoom, not the opposite.

 

I am the admin that banned HooJee.

 

Here is the situation:

We were on no-mercy in the map before you enter the hospital (c8m3_sewers), and I was on a team with HooJee and several other regulars. Of course I died in the first hallway because i'm a pro. So I was ghosting around watching people and helping my team.

We had just made it past the narrow hallway and we were down the hall from the final ladder when the other team spawned 4 tanks. So they tried to fight them for a minute and there were about 5-6 people left. So 3 of them pushed past the tanks when the other 3 were incapped and made it to the safe room.

HooJee was very aggravated by this and claimed they rushed to the end and if they hadn't rushed all 6 of them would have made it. I disagreed with this and he then proceeded to insult his team and specifically me.

Here is a screenshot of him insulting me (hence the permanent ban)

 

He then continued to argue with me on steam, so I asked the people who were in the server when I banned him what there opinion was and here is there response

 

HooJee I understand your anger about people leaving you for dead, but there was no reason to yell at me. I use my best judgement and admit when I am wrong, in this case I verified my opinion on "no rush" and it was confirmed.

 

Sorry to see you go

[samurai nightling]

Ok well, couple things.

 

1) It's pretty much up to the sole discretion of admins what is considered justified rushing. Arguing it really wont get you very far without much evidence or a majority of people think the admin was wrong. That's not hte case here, actually it seems to be the opposite.

 

2) You should read up on what it means to be a member of GC around here. You paid the dues to become a member so obviously you liked it in the server, and we always appreciate new people wanting to join, but that isn't the kind of behavior that anyone should have to put up with. What you said to crasx was completely out of line, and he as an admin dealt with it in a way he felt appropriate. The server has always had the rules of no excessive swearing especially of the F word, and respecting others. You did neither of these.

 

What i want to know is if this is a permanent ban or just temp? If its a temp i say ride it out and think about calming down a little and the things u said to crasx. If he perm banned you, then maybe an apology is in order to be unbanned. I can't say i know the entire story, but at this point, crasx has the evidence and proof that he acted in an appropriate way for a situation.

 

I do hope we can resolve this issue in a civil manner though.

[hoojee15]

When tank spawned ALL PPL WERE UP. But not all of them fight the tanks with full endeavor. You know how to shoot a tank? 10 shotgun shots from point-blank range and the tank will lose half hp. But sadly not too many ppl did that.

 

If those Tanks are riding your back with those people were incapped, it makes no sense to try to pick them up when you know you're not going to be able to. However, if those Tanks aren't even in visible sight yet (you KNOW that they are a ways off, or if they just spawned), I would try to pick up my teammates and attempt to heal them. There could be all 10 survivors alive and 9 of them incapped and this the situation described by Elegant and crasx would merit justifiable rushing.

 

I even have a whole thing outlined about rushing in the Steam group.

[crasx]

When tanks spawned there were at least 7 ppl alive and up. Yeah we fighted the tanks for a while but only 4 or 5 of us. The rest were just staying way far from the tank and watching and then rushed ahead when they saw ppl fighting the tank were down (of course you cannot fight 4 tanks with 4 ppl).

 

Rushing and abandoning teammates CAUSED that only 3 ppl made it to the saferoom, not the opposite.

 

From what I remember there were 8 people alive because I died first then a guy got smoked above the sewer.

I remember 3 the furthest down the hallway from the ladder you can be (back in a corner) getting pounded by 2 tanks (then 2 others chasing people still up). Then another incap (maybe 2) by the tunnel where you exit. Initially I followed 2 players up to the safe room who were mains. Then a 3rd came alone later. I remember I was actually spectating HooJee as he was incaped and then right after he went down I started following those two down the hall and up the ladder. It seemed justified by me

 

**edit**

Yes 8 people were up, then 4 went down.

 

2) You should read up on what it means to be a member of GC around here. You paid the dues to become a member so obviously you liked it in the server, and we always appreciate new people wanting to join, but that isn't the kind of behavior that anyone should have to put up with. What you said to crasx was completely out of line, and he as an admin dealt with it in a way he felt appropriate. The server has always had the rules of no excessive swearing especially of the F word, and respecting others. You did neither of these.

 

What i want to know is if this is a permanent ban or just temp? If its a temp i say ride it out and think about calming down a little and the things u said to crasx. If he perm banned you, then maybe an apology is in order to be unbanned. I can't say i know the entire story, but at this point, crasx has the evidence and proof that he acted in an appropriate way for a situation.

 

I do hope we can resolve this issue in a civil manner though.

Agreed. It is a perma ban but I can be lenient

Edited July 29, 2011 by crasx

[JackieChan]

I was giving the whole situation some thought and even though Hoojee shouldn't have flown off the handle and told crasx to "eff off", and considering Hoojee did throw down the cabbage to be a GC member after all. In the end, I just want everyone to have fun and that's what we're all about.

 

I'm going to remove the ban for you Hoojee. Just remember to keep a cool head in a bad situation like this and ask first before taking action.

[crasx]

sounds good. I just wanna have a fun and fair game

[samurai nightling]

I'll agree with whats been done also. Though its not normal practice to ban our own members, the members also have to realize how to act when in our servers, and we should use this as an example for everyone, whether you play L4D2 or CS:S or any other game we may host.

[hoojee15]

Thank you JackieChan. One day has passed and now I regain cool and calm and can review my behavior yesterday. Yes I did say improper and uncivil word to Crash when I lost my temper. I did not mean to insult him nor have anything personal with him, it is just a burst of rage after I thought I had been treated unfairly and we used some bad strategy to fight a battle of which we should have got a better result.

 

So I hereby apologize to you Crash. I should not have said those bad words to you.

 

Going back to rushing itself, I will re-estate that I oppose to any sort of rushing, be it "justified" or not. Even in a situation when 10 tanks are chasing you and 8 of your teammates are down and the progress has been fulfilled by more than 75%, if you rush, and suppose for the best result you made it to the saferoom, you will only get 100-200 more points compared to that you remain to fight and die with your teammates. Besides that, rushing severely destabilize the morale and organization of the survivor team and reduce the survivors' resolution to fight under stressful situation since you know that if you fight passively against tanks you still have chance to survive by yourself. Having a retreat, an "outside option", although only possible and depending on your luck, is never good for survivors. I would rather see the survivors fight and die as a group than flee and survive separately. I believe that it is the principle for this game to always stay as a group and never abandon your teammates, no matter in which situation.

[Madvillain]

I gotta add my 2 cents... always trust your admin, they are like refs in a sporting match, they may not always see things the way you do but you have to follow their call. Crasx knows the server and the game, he has put his time in, trust his decision. Secondly its a game, you will die sometimes... its bound to happen, you will respawn on the next map.

[crasx]

 

So I hereby apologize to you Crash. I should not have said those bad words to you.

 

 

Thanks bro. peace+love

[samurai nightling]

Yeah Hoojee I can understand where you're coming from. I'm sure a lot of players feel the same way too, that abandoning your team even in the face of sure defeat is not a good idea and brings down the morale for everyone. But I can't say we have to abandon all thought of running ahead to help the team as a whole altogether.

 

It helps in a different way, which is of winning in the end. Those extra couple hundred points may make the difference by the end of a game, especially if the teams are very even. Played a game yesterday where the teams were almost perfectly matched for the first couple of rounds (granted at the third round one team FINALLY came out on top as the clear winner of that round) but the points were literally within about 100 of each other for 2 rounds straight. The only reason for the slight difference was the small amount of distance we gained more than the other team did before we all died. If this trend had continued for the next couple of maps, the game would have pretty much come down to the wire, who got the farthest distance (since we all kept dying and saferoom points wouldn't come into effect). I can't blame those guy who helped us score more (obviously they were one of the 4 mains that score for distance) when 8 of us were down in a narrow alley and trying to save everyone would have gotten all 10 of us incapped in a matter of seconds.

 

Long story short, 90% of rushing that I have seen is not necessary, and as the sourcebans website shows, we have numerous bans for people that have rushed ahead. 10% though, it seems to have been for the better of the team and not for truly selfish reasons. When it comes to handling this matter, I agree with Madvillain in that the admins must act like refs. We're there to make sure the rules are followed, and everyone has the best time possible. Not every player always agrees with the calls, but that's why every player isn't the ref.

[Technotic]

I'll bring up a case where an admin justified my rush. A tank spawned and got about 8 people down. Right before the tank died, 2 more spawned and took out the remainders except for me. There were about 5 downed survivors left when the 2 other tanks spawned, so I took off running. I made it to the safe house and someone tried to ban me for rushing ahead. The admin stated it was a justified rush. Neither tank was lit and it was 2 tanks + 8 infected vs. Me. Not saying it couldn't be done but the odds were stacked against me.

[crasx]

I feel like I was screaming "run run run" to you rofl

[Technotic]

I feel like I was screaming "run run run" to you rofl

 

I would run and then if they try to kick me, I'd blame it on you.

[samurai nightling]

Yeah that's one of those justified instances lol. BTW if anyone ever tries to votekick/voteban someone for something not necessary, any admin on can instantly veto the vote.