Watchtower December 27, 2003 Share Watchtower Member December 27, 2003 God being the omnipotent and all powerful being allows evil to exist? Why dosen't he get rid of the devil and let us be on our merry way? Anyone wonder this? Is there an answer? Of couse there is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower December 30, 2003 Author Share Watchtower Member December 30, 2003 noone even wants to touch this.. I dont blame ya.. :m0m: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playaa December 30, 2003 Share Playaa Member December 30, 2003 I need to go to bed...maybe I'll touch more later...but the jist of my views is this: we have free will. Evil is NOT above God, it is the ABSENCE of God (God is good, lack of good is evil). If God took away the devil there would still be evil. Therefore we could still sin since we have free will. If God takes away free will then there is no merit to our love (since it's forced and not real) and our love and companionship is why he created us in the first place. that's the basics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoMamma December 30, 2003 Share YoMamma Member December 30, 2003 nice view on this playaa. thats the best explanation ive heard on this subject. personally i have no answer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower December 30, 2003 Author Share Watchtower Member December 30, 2003 Absence of God should not = evil.. Take away the devil and have no evil.. Just God.. One that is riased with no Gods, or different Gods that a Christian idea of God can be perfectly "Good" and no hints of evil. Even though they may worship other Gods not consumed by right wrong, good and evil.. Whats hard about that? Still have free will, just no devil and evil trying to drag you to hell.. If God wanted us to prove our love(free will), he could come up with other ways, like generosity and good deeds, and devotion to prove our worth. Instead we play all these apparently demented games of suffering and burning to either prove or damn our souls.. I guess in a perfect world.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playaa December 30, 2003 Share Playaa Member December 30, 2003 it all depends on your view of evil Watch. I don't think of "evil" and think of something sinister. I just think of it as something...well hard to explain...something just a bit off kilter..."not right" (right as in normal not as in right/wrong). And I DO believe that all humans are inherently evil...meaning we have evil inside of us from the moment we're born. Who teaches a child to take toys from other children? If you walk into a room with a 5 year old and put a perfectly normal un-exciting object on a table and tell the kid "Don't touch that." then leave the room...what is the first thing they'll do? I've seen small children and if you look at them objectively they HAVE evil and wrongdoing in their heart from birth. Now that doesn't mean that I think babies are evil things that need to be destroyed...but as a human they aren't perfect from the moment they're born. (although I do have this theory about babies wanting to overthrow the world...but that's for the political forums) as for this: I guess in a perfect world.. I get so sick and tired of hearing people talk about that...sheesh. Watch you're a human being. Can you win a game of chess every time you play? Could you tell me exactly how the Arch in St. Louis is built? didn't think so...you're human...your brain is a finite thing...it has limits...and yet for some insane reason all humans take it upon themselves to say how best the ENTIRE UNIVERSE should be run. Just think about that and think about how insanely pompous that is. I'm not calling you pompous I'm calling us all that...I have my ideas just as much as you do and I spout them as much as you...I just get sick and tired of hearing them all (and talking about mine) because I wish we'd all realize that there is absolutely NO WAY we can understand all of this and to think that we can have every right answer is just plain idiotic. as for these topics...I get sick of them...they are just skirting the main issue to me and I hate that. To me the main issue is this: because of this world and science I believe in Intelligent Design...and since I believe in that I've looked at alot of other religions (nowhere near all of them) and Christianity is the ONLY ONE that seems to make sense to me...and there are MANY things I don't know about this world and many things I can't explain in Christianity...but because of what I said before (that I'm human and never WILL know) I'm willing to accept that and do my best to learn...but just because I don't understand something doesn't make it impossible...and I find that is the best view to go into religion with...because when it comes down to it religion is the most important thing in anyones life...even if you don't believe in any religion you'd better understand that you need to know WHY you don't believe...because if you're wrong...you've made a HUGE mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo77 December 30, 2003 Share Theo77 Member December 30, 2003 the reason god doesn't get rid of the devil is because he loves everything, REGARDLESS!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auggybendoggy December 31, 2003 Share auggybendoggy Member December 31, 2003 Playaa, I don't think you've addressed the issue watch has asked. I don't think he's looking for a definition of Evil. He's asking logically why God doesnt just do away with it and just save everyone. You state: we have free will. Evil is NOT above God, it is the ABSENCE of God (God is good, lack of good is evil). If God took away the devil there would still be evil. Therefore we could still sin since we have free will. If God takes away free will then there is no merit to our love (since it's forced and not real) and our love and companionship is why he created us in the first place. I think your point is that if God did this he would not give people the choice to choose him? Help me if I'm reading you wrong. the rest of your explanations is irrelevant to Watchs question. Can you explain more clearly. Aug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playaa December 31, 2003 Share Playaa Member December 31, 2003 I did explain that...Evil is the absence of God. How does one do away with an absence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower December 31, 2003 Author Share Watchtower Member December 31, 2003 Ok, curiosity is not evil.. A baby being told no, then grabbing the block or whatever is more of an innocent misunderstanding.. For one the baby does not yet know that no means don't. He's not thinking, "i'm going to be bad and disobey"(sin?), but more like "ooo look at that pretty thing.. I've never seen one of those before, i wonder if I could eat it?".. And when you said "and yet for some insane reason all humans take it upon themselves to say how best the ENTIRE UNIVERSE should be run". Isn't this what Religion tries to do by explaining everything in a few stories and supposedly Gods word?? We should not care about the rest of the universe, we only concern ourselves about eternal damnation and saving ourselves from it since that is definitely an absolute by biblical standards.. It was written and that's the way it should be. If that's your goal, I would get busy. Who cares about anything else but what we think the holy men and the bible say? This life is a blink, an illusion.. And i'm not trying to disprove an "intelligent design" as i am not pompous enough to say that anything but what I see with my own eyes is for sure.. Which comes back to my problem with christianity and other religions that say this is the way and you better do it or else.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playaa December 31, 2003 Share Playaa Member December 31, 2003 watch have you ever heard of Frank Perretti? I urge you to check out his video entitled "The Chair"...it talks about how NO MATTER WHAT your world view is...we ALL have set beliefs that we think everyone should follow...it also talks about how that is the way it SHOULD be. I can't truly explain it well but he basically says that you saying I can't tell you what's right and wrong is illogical...because you just told me I can't do it... other than that...from these debates I've had with you...I really don't see a point...you've made up your mind and I've made up mine...so I think I'm gonna (TRY TO) be done with em. thx for the discussions though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower December 31, 2003 Author Share Watchtower Member December 31, 2003 Well the only problem i see with that Playaa is that you are closing your mind to what we are uncovering everyday.. You can concentrate on re-hashing and re-interpreting what you read in a book, or take a closer look at the actual world we are now discovering around us.. The latter is much more exciting and relevant to me.. You seem to have your place in heaven reserved, now go out and explore.. And thank you for Your discussions.. I'll say that not many people would have been able to carry on civily(sp?) as you have. We are not the only two in these discussions tho and I would like to see more peoples input.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower December 31, 2003 Author Share Watchtower Member December 31, 2003 Well the only problem i see with that Playaa is that you are closing your mind to what we are uncovering everyday.. You can concentrate on re-hashing and re-interpreting what you read in a book, or take a closer look at the actual world we are now discovering around us.. The latter is much more exciting and relevant to me.. You seem to have your place in heaven reserved, now go out and explore.. And thank you for Your discussions.. I'll say that not many people would have been able to carry on civily(sp?) as you have. We are not the only two in these discussions tho and I would like to see more peoples input.. And after researching Frank Peretti, I found some info on him along with this disturbing piece.. "Forgiven The Charles “Tex� Watson Story The Crime of the decade...the Charles Manson murders. Could one of his cult followers, a killer, really expect to be forgiven by God or by the daughter of his victims? Astonishing Live Meeting Click for more information on Forgiven" Basically "Tex" Watson, who was in on the Charles Manson murders, who killed Sharon Tate and her unborn baby(amongst others) is being forgiven and accepted by God? What's wrong with this picture.. That's like saying Jeffrey Dahmer and Ted Bundy are now in heaven.. It's just too easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playaa December 31, 2003 Share Playaa Member December 31, 2003 (edited) but you gotta realize that while Heaven is utopia/paradise/thecoolestplaceintheuniverse we're not just buying a ticket in then walking through the gates. I once had a dream that woke me up with MASSIVE chills and scared the daylights out of me...it was basically the end of time and every human being of all time was in 1 giant stadium with the biggest JumboTron â„¢ you've ever seen. Each human stepped up 1 by 1 to the center of the stadium in front of God's throne and each moment of their life was played on the JumboTron â„¢ and each time they did something wrong the video was paused and God would look at them and say: "so what was that all about?". I seriously have NO IDEA how to even begin explaining to you what sin is to me. Every time I sin and truly think about what I've done...the reason I ask forgiveness isn't because God tells me to, it's not because I think he's gonna fry me in my boots...it's because it crushes my heart to think of how much it hurts him to see me settle for less than perfection. Like I said I know you won't understand what I mean here...but I truly 100% believe in this God...I believe that he is a compassionate God and an all-knowing all-present God...when I do something against his will it really does hurt me and I believe it hurts him. I don't look at him as so much an authority figure that will punish me as I do a father figure who loves me and wants the best for me. I don't know how you and your father get along...but have you ever in your life really truly dissappionted your father? Not made him angry or anything like that but with something important really just made him sad. And even though you know he's crushed by your actions he's still your father and is there with you and will stand by you even though he is saddened by what you've done. (example...I once got into a fight with my dad and ended up cussing at him and using the F-word and the B-word...he just got really quiet and looked at me and just looked like he was about to cry cause he just didn't expect me to have that lack of respect for him at the time). If you know what I'm talking about then take that feeling and multiply it by 1,000 times...that's how I feel when I think about doing things wrong... as for murderers like Daumer...I get your logic there...and I have a hard time feeling that they deserve Heaven either...but that's the thing...none of us actually DESERVE Heaven, we can't do a thing to actually earn an endless eternity of bliss and perfection...I mean really what on this earth COULD we do to deserve that? We all want to be "good people"...but when it comes down to it I'll NEVER be as good of a person as say Mother Teresa, Ghandi...(there are very few names on that list) and I don't even think they were good enough to earn their way into Heaven... although...the idea that we COULD earn our way into Heaven has some merit because some people only care about the rewards they can build up...so maybe we'd have more nice people if that were true. *edit* after thinking more about "The Chair" I still think you should see it because it teaches some great ideas about a "fixed point of reference" when dealing with religion...but I must remind you that it is indeed at a seminar for those who already believe in God...and since I'm one of those people I can't look at it from your perspective.......so I don't know how much you'd really get out of it. Edited December 31, 2003 by Playaa/Pselus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playaa December 31, 2003 Share Playaa Member December 31, 2003 The Chair this is only audio of a very animated man which was origionally intended for video...so it WILL lose alot in translation since you hafta see this man to understand what he's doing (at times he can be..........weird) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower December 31, 2003 Author Share Watchtower Member December 31, 2003 Ok I get your points, and yes I have let down my father.. Quite a few times actually.. and I've felt really bad about most of the things and I believe i am a better person for acknowledging the fact and trying to prevent myself from doing the same things.. I can't say that I'll never let anyone down again, but i can do my darndest to try.. As for sin, you are looking at sin in a modern perspective. Lets get literal like the way it was back then(body a temple, dont cut hair, gluttony, greed ,intoxicants, drugs). Just about everything you do can be broken down to a sin(if you live at all) and you are going to live a life of sorrow for the fact that you are letting down and hurting your God.. This is why all of our morals and commandments are being washed out more and more daily.. To allow ourselves to maintain without believing we are all low down dirty worms.. Some of us Are worms.. Ok, gotta go play CoD(probably a sin) now, and I'll leave you with this link.. http://www.tc.umn.edu/~parkx032/CY-GUILT.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auggybendoggy January 1, 2004 Share auggybendoggy Member January 1, 2004 I still don't see the issue being addressed. Playaa, you seem to say that because one cannot do away with the absence of God then one cannot do away with evil? I am not sure if I am following your point. If I am understanding it correctly then what are your thoughts about God doing away with evil in the end? Auggy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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