Lesbianism and the Bible..

[Fatty]

Again, Watch...would you mind giving sources for all the quoting your doing? You refuted me when I said you do a good job of regurgitating other aged arguments...I think it would be right for you to credit whomever or wherever you're quoting.

 

You take me for a fool.

Yea, sorry. Not sure what made me do that.

[Fatty]

http://www.bible.com/answers/ahomosex.html

 

There's some reading for you. If you still have questions, email the peope at that site. I'd be interested in their reply.

 

Also, one level up from that is: http://bible.com/answers/answers.html

 

Much more scholarly than I'll ever be are those answers. Maybe before you drop another biased question (the rationale, btw, you have yet to share, though dweezil and I have both asked for it) in these forums.

 

I'd encourage you to perhaps turn your attention to things that actually impact your life...morals that cross over the boundaries of religion and are accepted as global truths. I don't see a point in your questions since you renounce the parts of the Bible that don't match your worldy values anyways. If it fits, then you say it's a "good part." If not, why do you care?

 

I'd like to experiment with splitting this forum into two parts. Let me know if the name I come up with doesn't suit you. I'll sort through the threads in here and divide em up so we'll have an idea of where we can possibly take this. If it doesn't seem to work, or the change makes no sense, it can easily be undone and recombined.

[Playaa]

the only thing I got to say about bible.com/answers is that sometimes...they don't answer the question well enough...

they also come across as "preachy" to me...but I still go there whenever I need verses for a common subject...and I consider it a great resource

 

Forget it...You win. I quit

welcome to the fold

[Watchtower]

lol.

 

Most of my stuff ends up coming from Religioustolerance.com or other liberal Christian websites. None of this comes from an Atheistic view.. Go figure.

[Watchtower]

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NIV): "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters, nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

 

And when does to word "homosexual" first appear in the bible? Original texts? We're they trying to clarify somthing there? I like to use the word "effeminate" instead. You'd do the same if you cared an ounce about the integrity of the bible and it's more recent "interpretations".

 

Actually I'm not even going to get into your bible.com/answers crap. Playaa was being nice about his summation. If you believe everything on that page, God help you.

 

Actually wait, this is good.. Start speading the news..

 

WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT....

THE TRADITION OF HALLOWEEN?

 

"Take us the foxes, the little foxes, that spoil the vines: for our vines have tender grapes."  Song of Solomon 2:15

 

Foxes sometime in search of food would enter into the grape orchards and devour the grapes and spoil the crop. However, the little foxes were too small to reach the grape bunches so they would chew on the vines and it would kill the whole vine. Instead of the farmer just losing his crop, he would lose his vine which was more disastrous. Spiritually some things we do or allow, that we might think is little or insignificant, can also be disastrous for us.

 

Some may consider celebrating Halloween as only a little compromise. However, it is the "little foxes" that spoil the vines and this little compromise can open the door to other evils. Many Christians do not realize that certain traditions that are celebrated in the world have evil origins. Just because our society partakes in certain activities does not make them acceptable for Christians. We must look to Christ and His Word to see if the traditions of this world are good or evil.

 

This "little fox" is not only spreading evil to children but has been a curse for the church and our nation as well. As Christians, we should spread the word to others about the evil tradition of Halloween.

 

Thank you. I needed a good laugh... Then I read about Pokemon! Thank God you opened my eyes to this great source of infinite wisdom.

 

You refuted me when I said you do a good job of regurgitating other aged arguments...I think it would be right for you to credit whomever or wherever you're quoting.

 

Just assume it's me saying it.. Because if I quote it, I have probably said the same thing just not in the same words.

 

Or you know what? Just don't even bother replying because I know where you're coming from and I'll most likely not respond.. Unless it's the ageless wisdom you provide from links like bible.com/answers.

 

"You take me for an idiot." "Yea, sorry. Not sure what made me do that. :rollseyes:"

Way to be.

[Playaa]

uh...yeah...how bout both of ya step back and then step forward and give each other a hug...

 

 

then step back again...dip...turn to the left, turn to the right...dip...smack your right foot with your left hand, spin....step up and hug again...

theeeeen...SWING YOUR PARTNER ROUND AND ROUND! FIND SOME WATER, DUNK HER UNDER AND WATCH HER DROWN!!!

YEEHA!

[Watchtower]

I'm not the one calling people idiots.. Whatever. I don't know what I ever did to him for him to feel this way twords me. I've tried to make amends in the past. For what I don't know, seems like the thing to do.

[Cranky Bullfrog]

Hi folks. An interesting discussion to say the least and obviously there are some strong feelings about the issues. I wanted to comment on some of the discussion as well.

 

First of all I believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God and that gives you some basis for understanding where I'm coming from. See 2 Timothy 3:16-17

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

I believe that God intends for us to know and understand how HE feels on the issues of life and how we are to live our lives in order to be pleasing to Him. He reveals this through the Bible.

 

When the Bible condemns homosexuality, it doesn't just condemn sexual relations between males; it applies to men and women equally.

 

For example, in Romans chapter 1 and beginning at verse 24, Paul speaks out about the lifestyles of those who are living in contradiction to God's will for their lives:

4Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

 

In this passage, God refers to their behavior as "vile passions" - meaning disapproved of by God. It also says that the women exchanged the natural use of their bodies (normal sexual relations with men) and pursued one another. This is clarified further in the following verse (27) in which it says "likewise the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another" and goes on to explain that they consummated this lust. Therefore, it is speaking of men having sex with men and women having sex with women. The use of the word "likewise" tells us that the acts committed by males and females were the same. The Bible also says they received the due penalty for their sin as well. We don't know what that was but we can rest assured that it was indeed received by them and a result of their displeasing God.

 

The description of these people and what happened to them continues in the following versus:

28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

 

The picture here is of people who were in rebellion to God. The sexual side of their sin was only one aspect of it but it was indeed an important aspect as God has always spoken out against sexual immorality and punished it. Pagan religions of the early bible times were steeped in sexual immorality. They practiced it as a way to show their allegiance to the "god" they were following. Many of these practices are some of the things that were mentioned earlier in this thread including sexual assault of enemies, slaves and etc. These activities were never associated with the behavior of Christians. God condemned this type of activity at all times.

 

The cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of sexual immorality - by God (Gen 19:23-25). This sin was specifically identified in Gen 19:4-5 when the people of the city announced their intentions to have sexual relations with the two visitors (angels).

Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. 5And they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally.�

Yes it is men who are specifically spoken about here but the Bible says "all the people from every quarter" showed up around Lot's house indicating they wanted to be participants in this sin. As a result, when God destroyed the city (verse 24), he destroyed everyone except for Lot, his wife and his daughters. That means men and women were destroyed for this sin. It would not be reasonable to assume that something so heavily condemned in the lives of men can be acceptable in the lives of women. God didn't just condemn/kill the men; it included the women. If homosexual relations between the women had been permissible, God would have lead them out of the city (as he did Lot's family) prior to the destruction of these cities. Christ spoke of this in Luke 17:29

29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

Likewise in 2 Peter 2:6

6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

This applied to both men and women - the sin was the same and the punishment was the same. Jude 1:7 also bears this out

7Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

The literal Greek describing strange flesh refers to "other flesh" and there are only two choices - male with female (which is approve of by God within the context of marriage) and same gender relations (the other flesh) which is not approved.

 

There are many passages in the Bible that deal with those who wish to continue to live in sin and it is always forbidden. Specifically sexual relations outside of marriage are always condemned and homosexual sexual relationships are always outside of marriage (in spite of the MA court system's very recent desire to change that definition).

 

Marriage is strictly defined (at least as by God) as a relationship between man and woman. This is spelled out in several scriptures. Jesus spoke of this in Matthew 19:4:

 

4And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

 

He speaks of this again in the context of discussing divorce in verse 8:

8He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. 9And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

 

Marriage is specifically spoken of here and it involves a man and a woman (husband and wife).

 

Those are some of my thoughts on the issue. I know such matters are frequently charged with emotion and personal viewpoint but I personally believe that the closer we remain to God's word, the closer we are to the truth and it is that truth by which we will be held accountable at the judgment day. Jesus said this in John 12:48

48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

-------------------

 

Watch - I don't think Fatty is calling you or anyone else an "idiot" at all. In fact, I did a search on this thread and the only reference I found to the word "idiot" was in your postings - twice. So, I don't believe that's his intent but I'm sure he can speak for himself.

 

However, I think he may be pointing out the fact that you appear to want to come across as thoughtful and focused in a non-inflammatory manner solely upon the discussion at hand and yet you say things that are very hurtful.

 

also, as long as it's done in a friendly and productive manner, debate and discussion can do nothing but help us all understand what is going on

 

But then in one of your replies, you responded with comments as follows:

 

You'd do the same if you cared an ounce about the integrity of the bible....

and

 

Actually I'm not even going to get into your bible.com/answers crap

 

How is Fatty or anyone else supposed to feel about those types of comments? Why do you bring to question Fatty's concern for the Bible's integrity? I don't think he has done anything to indicate he doesn't care about this - but rather just the opposite. I think such a comment is intended to be injurious and not productive to discussion.

 

Also, calling his reference "crap" is again belittling or showing disrespect. You seem to feel free to reference other non-Biblical sources of information and to quote them and yet you belittle his reference. Just because you do not personally agree with the viewpoints of conservative Christians doesn't mean their belief's are "crap".

 

Thank God you opened my eyes to this great source of infinite wisdom

 

Again sarcasm. So, I'm not sure how in light of these comments, you can say honestly that you believe you are politely and thoughtfully discussing the issues.

 

You would seek to have people listen to and consider your thoughts and arguments given your more liberal viewpoint and liberal references but deny Fatty the same right - to be heard regarding his thoughts from a more conservative viewpoint and referencing more conservative sources. Just because you don't agree, doesn't make it "crap".

 

I believe that Fatty is sharing the things with you that he is (as am I and others) out of a desire to share the truth of God's word and His plan for your life - as well as ours. So, that should not be a cause for hard feelings and animosity:

Gal 4:16

6Have I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?

[Watchtower]

Watch - I don't think Fatty is calling you or anyone else an "idiot" at all. In fact, I did a search on this thread and the only reference I found to the word "idiot" was in your postings - twice. So, I don't believe that's his intent but I'm sure he can speak for himself.

 

However, I think he may be pointing out the fact that you appear to want to come across as thoughtful and focused in a non-inflammatory manner solely upon the discussion at hand and yet you say things that are very hurtful.

 

You're right.. He just called me foolish.. It's sounded more like idiot to me tho I guess.

 

But I want you to find me an inflammitory comment made by me before Fatty came in bashing me calling me the ZeroDamage of the Spiritual forums.. Basically saying I'm on the verge of being banned or seomthing because ZeroDamage was Quite inflammitory in almost All of his posts and ended up being banned. For him to compare me to him is ridiculous. So I'll concede that my posts after Fatty decided to interveine with insults and bogus links that are suppose to "answer all my questions" we a littl inflammitory and I apologize. That's not characteristic of me and I took great offense to his summary of my character and premise. And he's done this before so the second or third time around it really gets irritating. If he didn't have anything constructive to add to the thread like You did with your examination of Romans 1.. That's all someone had to say.. Then if I had any questions about anything in there we could have discussed like we always have in here.

 

Are the others that post their beliefs here my enemies because they tell me what they think is the truth? No. As a matter of fact, I think very highly of Playaa, Dweezil, Jane, Auggy, BG, Rev and many others who have come in and shared their views. I appreciate their viewpoint because like I said a long time ago, I've never know any "Very conservative" people and had the chance for a 1 on 1 with them. Fattys tone and condescending attitude, which are nothing new, will provoke a very different response. Bible.com talking about Pokemone, Harry Potter, the celebration of Halloween, while I understand their points, and IF I were a Christian, I'd Have to be right there with them, are, IMO, borderline fanatical. Or to put it nicely like Playaa did, "Preachy". And for someone to give me that site as an end all of religious debate, IMO was laughable. I mean do you believe all that stuff? Is that how You've practiced and passed down your faith? I doubt it.. I'm sure there are people that hold those same beliefs and don't practice "Pagan" holidays and hold very rigid standards in all aspects, and frankly these people more often than not scare me. Unless of course we are talking Amish or those who Truely live their faith. I can accept a more liberal view as with many of the board members here.

 

 

Now about some of the quotes you posted here.. THat's fine. My next question would be why don't we take as hard of a stance against all forms of sodomy.. Since it's really about fornication, that is any act of sex that is not intended to produce a child in wedlock. So when we talk about oral sex between a married man and woman, birth control methods(Go Catholics!) etc, they aren't pursued with the same passion as male homosexuality, but in the eyes of God one in the same. My thing is, if you are going to believe 1 thing, you have to believe it all and apply it accordingly. Divorce, the re-marrying of a widow etc.. It just seems so washed out anymore, but people hold onto one or two things like it's going to bring about the end of the world. On that note, God must be so furious of our great country that the end Has to be near. Which from what I understand is the view of a good many people.

[Playaa]

On that note, God must be so furious of our great country that the end Has to be near. Which from what I understand is the view of a good many people.

I just wanna say...I'm one of those people

I think God pretty much hates America...in fact in studying Revelation there is only one verse that people think might refer to America...that's the verse about "on wings of eagles"...

so if America isn't involved in the end times very much, or isn't important...to me it says that either we are VERY ineffectual (which would require a drastic change in the world as it is now) or we aren't even here...

but yeah...I think God is rather angry at America in general and especially American "Christians"

[Watchtower]

http://www.godhatesamerica.com/

 

Wow, pretty radical stuff.. Not trying to incite a riot here.. Delete if necessary! Looks like from the same godhatesrags people.. I've heard them speak.. And their children. I feel sorry for them.

[Cranky Bullfrog]

Hi Watch and Playaa! Thanks for writing back.

 

I too think that perhaps God isn't too happy with America today for a number of reasons. We seem to be a country bent upon removing His name from just about everything public and yet many of these actions are in contradiction with one another. For example, we seek to remove God's name from the Pledge of Allegiance and yet we still swear people under oath in courts of law requiring them to assert that they will tell the truth in God's name.

 

Many things that the Bible condemns are openly practiced today and sometimes without shame. Given that those same things are held as shameful in the Bible and the Bible is the expression of God's will on many subjects, this indicates that such things are in contradiction to God's desire for mankind and therefore offensive to Him. In the past, many nations (some quite corrupt) stood for lengthy periods of time despite having fallen out of good graces with God (as is reported in the Bible multiple times). However, none of them stood forever but rather any who chose to turn their backs on God eventually suffered the consequences of their actions.

 

So, only God knows the timeframe for when He will return and deal with those who choose to live outside of the plan He has given to us. I don't presume to judge any such people but I do tell them that they will have to take that up between them and God when the time comes and for me to do anything other than that which I am doing (that which is based upon Biblical teaching), would be a mistake for me personally.

 

God's final judgement upon the earth will be at a time and choosing of His making and the Bible is quite clear about that. For example, the Bible tells us in 2 Peter 3:10-12....

 

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

 

The same warning about the unpredicatable timing of God's return is described in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-5.

 

Jesus explains that the timing will be known only to God also in Matthew 24:36-44

36“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

 

So, my understanding of the Bible's teachings is that we won't know when God is coming back. He says it will be a time of His choosing and unexpected. By that definition, I can conceive that this is likely to be a time when people are enjoying peace and prosperity. After all, when things are in turmoil, most everyone expects something dramatic to happen - so the element of surprise would be lost. However, when people are happy, content and not under stress, they tend to pay very little attention to the things going on around them (for example, the relative ease with which the plane hijackers carried out the assaults of 911). So, in essence, I think - and this is just my opinion, that the return of Christ will be at a time when we least expect it and things are quite peaceful- and not at a time when doom-sayers are at their peak. Regardless of my opinion though, the Bible clearly tells us it will happen when we are not expecting it. That basically means it could happen anytime. Therefore, Christians are admonished to be consistent in their behavior and manner of life at ALL times.

 

That brings me to the second comment I wanted to make with regard to your earlier comment as follows:

My next question would be why don't we take as hard of a stance against all forms of sodomy.. Since it's really about fornication, that is any act of sex that is not intended to produce a child in wedlock.

 

Actually, I do take a hard stand (perhaps that isn't the best word because it sounds harsh but the thought is correct) against all the matters you discussed. I can't really answer for the "we" of your question but as a Christian, certainly there are things that I believe are wrong as taught to me by the Bible. Here are a few examples: I think it is wrong for people to practice sodomy - it was practiced by Sodom and Gomorrah and was to a large extent the reason for their destruction at the hands of God. I also believe that fornication (defined Biblically as sex outside of wedlock by unmarried persons) is wrong in the sight of God. I also believe that adultery (sex with a married person that is between that married person and someone outside the marriage) is wrong. I also believe that divorce except for the case of adultery where forgiveness is not possible by the injured party (as taught by Jesus in Matthew 5:31-32) is wrong.

31“Furthermore it has been said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ 32But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery. 

Jesus was quoted on this subject in Matthew 19:8-9 as well:

8He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.�

Thus Christ says that only for the case of sexual immorality on the part of the spouse can the injured party divorce them. Also, when He says "...from the beginning it was not so." He is referring to the fact that from the original institution of marriage, God's intention was that people who married one another would remain so for life.

 

So, I suppose you would find that I do take a rather hard stand on all these issues you brought up but it is based upon the teaching of the Bible and I believe because of that, it is a very consistent stand. Again, I understand that other people may not feel this way but for me, as a Christian, to do anything other than what the Bible teaches on these subjects, would be wrong. So, Watch, I would agree with you that sin is sin in the eyes of God. People define shades of gray but the true nature of God is that He is without sin. Because of that He cannot accept sin in His presence. To that end, He sent His son to be a sacrifice for sin to pay the price. Through Jesus we have the opportunity to have our sins forgiven and be brought into a right relationship with God. So, I think any sin in our lives is wrong and must be dealt with - I don't mean that we become perfect because that isn't going to happen. But I mean that we do the best to live our lives as God would have us to do - based upon His word and loving guidance.

 

One other thought I'll share too. I'm not sure where people got the idea that sex, as created by God, was solely for the purpose of procreation. I suppose such a conservative view might prevent a lot of problems in society but I believe writings such as the Song of Solomon make it quite clear that it is intended to be a shared and beautiful experience between husband and wife that unites them as "one body" and even one spirit. This chapter of the Bible is filled with passion between a man and his wife. This is also repeated in Proverbs chapter 5 when the man is instructed to "rejoice with the wife of your youth" - it means this in a very sexual sense and it admonishes the young man to remain true to his wife and avoid immoral temptations to seek after other women. So, I believe the Bible teaching on sex is that it is intended between husband and wife only and is for both the enrichment of the marriage as well as the blessing (if you are so blessed) of children. As a father of three, I feel that this is one of God's greatest blessings and I find these days in which my kids are leaving the nest to be a rather difficult but necessary adjustment.

 

I know these aren't popular views today but they are views that I have developed based upon the teachings of the Bible. If you like, I can show you scripture that backs up some of my claims but I was trying not to turn this into another treatise! (but I fear I may have already failed in that regard!).

[Watchtower]

Actually Cranky, you views and beliefs are acknowledged and respectd. Although I was more talking about how we enforce these as a society.. Through politics if we are to govern specific matters of biblical interest, why aren't they going for all of them.. The ones like adultry and unmarried sex resulting in children which play more of a part in the breaking down of the family..

[NyxErinyes]

Just a quick blurb. As Dad hinted at with his topic on trying to remove God from public places. Society as a whole speaks of "Freedom of religion" when in reality they mean "Freedom FROM religion." People don't want to be told what is right and wrong, they want only to be restricted based on what is actually damaging to others, and even in some of those cases they want to continue in their activities. Society doesn't regulate these other things because society doesn't WANT them to be regulated, they want to participate them and don't care a whit about the Bible or morality in general. So society as a whole picks and chooses, responding only to that which irritates the majority of people, and permitting what the majority demands. (divorce, adultery, pre-marital sex, amongst a GREAT number of other things)

Edited May 31, 2004 by NyxErinyes