Lesbianism and the Bible..

[Watchtower]

Talk about it.. Can't find anything talking about homosexuality other than the "man laying with man" stuff..

[Playaa]

well...guess that means everything in the Bible where it specifically says "man" means that it doesn't apply to women...

c'mon Watch...honestly you're reaching now man.

[gOOters]

Im sure its all the same. Either way, I am much happier thinking about a woman lying with a woman

[All Kill3r]

i saw 'lesbians' and came running. so dissapointed.

 

 

[Watchtower]

Im sure its all the same. Either way, I am much happier thinking about a woman lying with a woman

 

Part of my point.. But anyhow, look up the greek Playaa.. I gave you the link. Man means Man, Woman means Woman. I asked for an explanation.. Lay it out for us..

[Playaa]

you've answered it for yourself in the past Watch...when you were mulling about this topic "out loud" in another topic...the Bible mentions "men" and "man" as a general term...it doesn't usually mention "woman" unless it's specifically dealing with women only...(i.e. if it's men and women then it's "men")

hence the TNIV translation of the Bible actually...they translate "he" as "he and she" in proper places....and those places can be figured out by context.

if you want you can take a legalistic approach to the Bible...heck maybe that is how you SHOULD take it...I really don't know...guess it comes down to each man and God...he's the only one you gotta answer to.

[dwEEziL]

Watch, what is the greek word you are referencing please?

[Watchtower]

I don't know, post a passage that condemns Homosexuality..

 

Actually here's a favorite one.. Talking about 1Corinthians6:9..

 

Know ye (5758) not that the unrighteous shall not inherit (5692) the kingdom of God? Be not deceived (5744) : neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

 

The term "mankind"..

 

Original Word:

  a¹rsenokoiðthv   from (730) and (2845)

Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling

  Arsenokoites   ar-sen-ok-oy'-tace   

Parts of Speech TDNT

  Noun Masculine   

Definition

  one who lies with a male as with a female, sodomite, homosexual

 

Translated Words

  KJV (2) - abuser of (one's) self with mankind, 1; defile (one's) self with mankind, 1;

NAS (2) - homosexuals, 2;

 

Everything to me seems to adress the Male side of homosexuality. Which in my mind backs up the claim that these are hold-overs from old Canannite laws prohibiting male(boys) homosexuality and prostitution.. Boy prostitutes(the effeminates) and the men who seek them out are the ones being addressed..

 

Feel free to post another passage that condemns homosexuality and we'll examine that as well..

[Fatty]

Sometimes I wonder about you, Watch....and if you could spend more time thinking about things that might actually have something to do with your life....

 

Unless you're considering becoming a lesbian and just checking things out...if that's the case, I stand corrected.

[Trouble .gc]

i'm in trouble

[Watchtower]

For the record I am a lesbian trapped in a mans body..

 

My beliefs don't have anything to do with my life?

 

Everyone has a "cause". Personally know several "lame" people, I take great pride in speaking in their defense. For someone to tell them they are wrong(and going to burn for eternity) for something out of their control incences me.

 

and if you could spend more time thinking about things that might actually have something to do with your life....

 

And to assume that I don't? And to assume that it doesn't? The world around me Does affect my life sir.

 

My Agenda..

 

Pretty noble cause huh?

 

Also, as long as it's done in a friendly and productive manner, debate and discussion can do nothing but help us all understand what is going on. I'm not saying I have everything figured out, I'm saying I'm looking for answers.

 

Back to the issue at hand..

 

Everything to me seems to adress the Male side of homosexuality. Which in my mind backs up the claim that these are hold-overs from old Canannite laws prohibiting male(boys) homosexuality and prostitution.. Boy prostitutes(the effeminates) and the men who seek them out are the ones being addressed..

 

Feel free to post another passage that condemns homosexuality and we'll examine that as well..

[Playaa]

you are very frustrating Watch

For someone to tell them they are wrong(and going to burn for eternity) for something out of their control incences me.

when did any one say that? In fact I've said multiple times the exact opposite...it's really annoying when you won't listen to what I have to say...makes these topics rather pointless

[Fatty]

pointless

no kidding.

 

 

Call it what you want, Watch....it's my opinion (yay, you can't debate that!!) that you just like to listen to yourself type.

 

Have people that used to entertain your questions ceased to do so? Playaa seems on the verge of stepping out of your game.

[Fatty]

Had some time to think on this and here's where I come out:

 

Watch, you are to the spirituality forum what ZeroDamage was to the political realm of our discussion boards. I wouldn't wonder too long why, to quote you from another topic: "it's quiet around here."

 

You visit your favorite anti-bible and non-christian websites, post loaded questions from used arguments that fall out of aged and tired debates and then post here as if you yourself were scouring the Bible searching for answers, and as if your question has never been answered before.

 

You aren't looking for answers. You know where you stand and you just like to argue. So this is the continual pattern...ask people to prove something to you using a book that you don't believe is valid, so that in the end you can always fall back on your disbelief in the one source you are questioning. Even on the topics that you don't start, you come flying in bearing unsourced quotes and a tone that negative in nature....sometimes very suited for the political forums...perhaps it's time to split forums, and leave you with your Spiritual Politics...and then create a safer place to discuss spirituality as I believe it was first intended here.

 

Maybe playaa, as the other moderator, should just answer your questions with a link and a closed topic.

[Watchtower]

Lol.

 

You visit your favorite anti-bible and non-christian websites, post loaded questions from used arguments that fall out of aged and tired debates and then post here as if you yourself were scouring the Bible searching for answers, and as if your question has never been answered before.

 

You think so? I don't. Totally wrong sorry. I post topics relative to what's going on around us today. I don't sit around wnd think up what I think is wrong about the bible. Stories on the news about finding Noahs ark, so here comes my ark post. If you don't like the lines of discussion, and can't add any substance to the topic at hand, I'd suggest leaving them alone. It's easy. Everyone does it. And to answer your question, the ones that engage in discussion here have done so in the past and currently do so. Playaas not going anywhere I'm sure.. Sorry. I'm not making any enemies, just provoking thought. Like Dweezil recently said, these discussions only "cement" his beliefs. I think it makes you think about what and why you believe something, and if you feel it is a good reason and warranted, it will only affirm your beliefs.. Bottom line is some things in the bible just don't make sense anymore.. Look at slavery and equal rights. You're going to get all angry about me bringing this up but reality tells you that only 50 years ago our people(blacks, women) were still segregated and discriminated against and most of those doing so thought they had religous backing. We've proven them wrong once, why not again?

 

You know where you stand and you just like to argue.

 

So I've read and understand the whole Bible? Every Christian has read and understand the whole Bible? As a matter of fact I agree with the Majority of the message.. Just a few little details that I like to get peoples Varying perspective on and state the conclusions that I can come to reading the same thing...

 

 

Has anyone shown any disrespect to anything of a Christian nature posted here in the past? No. Take a look at the names of the topic starters here.. Were they afraid to post? Does anyone insult? Has moderation even needed to be discussed? No.

I think you need to throw out what you think you know about me and start over. Like Soul would say, "You're Wrong".

 

Watch, you are to the spirituality forum what ZeroDamage was to the political realm of our discussion boards. I wouldn't wonder too long why, to quote you from another topic: "it's quiet around here."

 

I can't believe you could say this.. No comparison in my book. I care about others feelings and choose my words wisely. He was a loose cannon and wasn't afraid to offend anyone. I generally debate the topics not the person.

 

you are very frustrating Watch

 

For someone to tell them they are wrong([b[and going to burn for eternity[/b]) for something out of their control incences me.

 

 

when did any one say that? In fact I've said multiple times the exact opposite...it's really annoying when you won't listen to what I have to say...makes these topics rather pointless

 

That wasn't directed at anyone specifically..

 

If you want a "Christians Only" forum, by all means you are the man and can open it up..

[Watchtower]

So Back to the topic at hand, again

 

Everything to me seems to adress the Male side of homosexuality. Which in my mind backs up the claim that these are hold-overs from old Canannite laws prohibiting male(boys) homosexuality and prostitution.. Boy prostitutes(the effeminates) and the men who seek them out are the ones being addressed..

 

Feel free to post another passage that condemns homosexuality and we'll examine that as well..

 

All I want is a passage that condemns homosexuality that is used in a feminine context instead of male.. To me, everything I've seen only adresses Male, and Masculine stuff..

 

Maybe playaa, as the other moderator, should just answer your questions with a link and a closed topic.

 

A link would work, or just type it out.. Why close the topic? You let your emotions rule you waaay too much Fatty... Cooler heads prevail.

[Playaa]

as I've said before Watch. The Bible uses masculine words to talk about everyone (just like most languages do).

SS or Jane one of them have posted before a verse talking about women and homosexual acts...however I think it was done in the political forums

[dwEEziL]

Watch, you say everything you find referencing homosexuality in the Bible points to the male? Then you quote the grammatical gender of the Greek word as one of your references. Grammatical gender doesn't necessarily, in fact not often at all, agree with what you would consider the natural gender of the word. We as English speakers, usually associate cars and ships as females but German's consider cars males. The assignment of grammatical gender to a word often is arbitrary and has more to do with the ending of the word than it's natural gender. You can not use that to help you support your claim. You'll sink like our dear lady the Titanic.

 

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Greek_language

 

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Grammatical_gender

[Fatty]

My head is completely cool, btw. Where did I get uncool? BTW, about prevailing...that may be YOUR goal, but it's not mine. I'm not trying to win any arguments about anything here. I'm not going to get into a quote war here with you...you know it makes no difference who starts the topic, you slide in there each time, don't you?

 

Mankind = men and women, right? This entire thread to understand that?

 

One small step for man? They didn't mean men only, did they?

 

This is just an example of a perfectly obvious answer that for some reason you want to stretch into something that it isn't.

 

At any rate:

 

There's your answer, once from playaa, and once from me.

 

Now, please, if you will, tell me why this matters to you now that we have cleared it up for you. Tell me how your life/actions/whatever change now that you know the Bible meant men AND women. I'd like to know how this information has helped you in your trek.

[dwEEziL]

All I want is a passage that condemns homosexuality that is used in a feminine context instead of male..  To me, everything I've seen only adresses Male, and Masculine stuff..

But why do you even flippin' care? Reference my previous post to see why all you see is "male". Also, in the bibilcal times, women were considered a second class, or non-existent entity when it counted. The feeding of the 5000? That was only the number of men. It didn't include all the women and children. In the census? Women didn't count either. Men were the ultimate at this time. Women did as the men said and the men were the ones to set the example for the women. If it was said that men shouldn't act a certain way, it went for women too.

 

If that is not good enough for you, happy digging, cuz I don't have to prove anything, you do.

 

BTW, my comments in the first paragraph was an explanation of society during the Biblical times. It in no way defines how I think a man-woman relationship or society in general should be.

[appalachian_fox]

Dweez's second link shows the difference in language gender and natural gender explicitly and is important in understanding what masculine and feminine nouns really signify. Despite the male dominance of pirates and farmers in those ancient days, both were feminine words. This is common to all case languages, even modern-day German. Noun gender (i.e. language gender) is utilized solely for subject-verb and noun-(pre/ante)cedent agreement.

 

You reference one passage with one word that was translated mankind in one translation. Many words are subsumed into one English word when translating documents in other languages. Example, Greek also has three words for love, all of them distinctly different, yet they are usually (until the more recent translations) all translated into love. (Fun trivia fact, Sanskrit has over 90 words for love!)

 

The answers to many of these questions are well-documented and have been exhaustively debated long before we were ever around. If you're lucky enough to have a university around with a large library (fortunately I am) they probably have a lot on these same questions that recur in the forum. If the answers are not satisfactory here, check them out elsewhere, but they will probably be similarly worded and just as unsatisfactory.

Edited May 27, 2004 by appalachian_fox

[Watchtower]

BTW, about prevailing...that may be YOUR goal, but it's not mine.

 

It's a figure of speech? Lol. Yay I win! Muahahahaaa

 

I'm not talking about the term "mankind". Obviously this refers to all. You take me for a fool. And the passage is "abusers of mankind" So go ahead and interpret that for me..

 

THe passage I'm refering to is Leviticus 18:22.. and other like it..

 

"You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination. "

 

which is widely used to condemn all homosexual acts..

 

 

There are biblical descriptions of close and intimate relationships between members of the same gender. But there are no unambiguous passages that show that they were sexually active.

 

One is forced to conclude that the Bible often condemns heterosexual and homosexual exploitive, manipulative sex, and prostitution, but may be totally silent on consensual homosexual relationships.

 

One is left with many Biblical passages which condemn fornication - sex outside of marriage. If one were to accept these passages as inspired by God, then one can conclude that the Bible considers homosexual sex within a committed relationship as equivalent to a man and woman living together common-law without having being married.

 

In Biblical times, same-gender sexual interactions could take many forms. Some were:

 

Kings of conquered tribes were sometimes anally raped by the invading army as the ultimate symbol of defeat and humiliation. Homosexual rape was also a way of humiliating visitors and strangers. These were acts of power and domination and had nothing in common with consensual sex by gays and lesbians. 

Some religious groups both in and around ancient Israel had male prostitutes in their temples who ritually engaged in same-sex activities. These practices were frequently condemned in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). Temple prostitution is no longer found in most areas of the world. 

It was common within the Roman Empire for male adults to keep boy prostitutes for the purpose of sexual activity. The boys were often slaves. In modern times, this is considered extreme child abuse, a criminal offense. 

It is reasonable to assume that many loving lame and lesbian relationships existed in Biblical times. Rabbi Gershon Caudill wrote: "Like all indigenous peoples, the Jews were not overly concerned about male homosexuality, where two men lived together in a monogamous, sexual relationship. As a rule, it did not get any notice....The Talmud does not record a single instance of a person being brought before the Sanhedrin on the charge of homosexual activity." 5 It was only a millennium after the Torah was written that the Talmud makes its first reference to homosexuality as a perversion. This occurred during the time when the Hebrews were being influenced by Greek culture -- one which accepted homosexual behavior.

 

So again, it seems to be all about the Males.. Now you can say women just didn't matter like Dweeze said, in which I agree. They were just seen more as property and incubators, but I just find it odd they are totally excluded.

 

Ahhh, here's my thoughts a little more eloquently put.

 

More liberal Christians tend to look upon the Bible as containing many translation errors, whose verses should not necessarily all be taken at their face value. Passages often relate to customs of a long-past era that cannot be applied in today's society. Verses which accept and regulate slavery or limit the rights of women or condone what we now regard as child abuse are ignored. Passages which might be interpreted as condemning homosexuality might also be not applicable today.

 

And about Dweezs links.. I found nothing to say that grammatical gender does not play the part I'm talking about in their language.. As a matter of fact, "Ancient Greek" is listed under those Using Grammatical Gender.. What am I missing.. What are you guys trying to say? Talking about "mankind"?

[dwEEziL]

I am saying that just because a word is "feminine" in grammatical gender, it doesn't mean it is referring to females and vice versa.

[Watchtower]

"Man lay with a man as with a female" is pretty straightforward no?

[dwEEziL]

Forget it...You win. I quit