Penty January 22, 2007 Share Penty Member January 22, 2007 I will swear by my CM Stacker, I love it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfly January 22, 2007 Share dragonfly Member January 22, 2007 lol I used to game with that same gpu and a 2.0 P4 So i know how it feels. I was getting ~15-20 fps in 20 player servers, so yeah, it sucks. About the ram, i was just trying to save you some money. I'm sure the stuff you were looking at is great, but also more expensive. As far as the 6600, it's 2.4 - the 6400 is the 2.13. Either way, it'll blow your 2.4 out of the water even if you downclocked it to 2.0 and only ran one of the cores. lol Penty! See, MaDPaT? I told you they do! June??? That sucks big time. Dang! Stupid UT and always pushing the date back... For computer stuff, just dont get stuff that you wont need. For instance, I have ddr500 ram, but could have went with ddr400. However, the price difference was only about $30, and made the clock to 2.5 a lot easier. If you're not going to overclock, then you should be fine with the 800, but then again I'm no hardcore overclocker. By June AMD an answer to the 8800gtx and then you can grab that card instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaDPaT January 22, 2007 Author Share MaDPaT Member January 22, 2007 lol I used to game with that same gpu and a 2.0 P4 So i know how it feels. I was getting ~15-20 fps in 20 player servers, so yeah, it sucks. About the ram, i was just trying to save you some money. I'm sure the stuff you were looking at is great, but also more expensive. As far as the 6600, it's 2.4 - the 6400 is the 2.13. Either way, it'll blow your 2.4 out of the water even if you downclocked it to 2.0 and only ran one of the cores. lol Penty! See, MaDPaT? I told you they do! June??? That sucks big time. Dang! Stupid UT and always pushing the date back... For computer stuff, just dont get stuff that you wont need. For instance, I have ddr500 ram, but could have went with ddr400. However, the price difference was only about $30, and made the clock to 2.5 a lot easier. If you're not going to overclock, then you should be fine with the 800, but then again I'm no hardcore overclocker. By June AMD an answer to the 8800gtx and then you can grab that card instead. Overclock the computer? I am just trying to figure out how to put this together. My nvidea 6200 oc is so lame. Would you believe I had geeksquad put it in and they told me is was acceptable for gaming. I do not think they are familiar with ut2004. Got to get some books on "pc building for dummies". Thanks again DA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tek-Almighty January 23, 2007 Share Tek-Almighty Member January 23, 2007 (edited) I just looked at the cpu/ram/gup and... Others may have a different opinion, but I'd - go for an 8800gtx over a gts, change the processor to a 6600 (cheaper, same cache) - get a Thermaltake Big Typhoon over the Fatal1ty HS - get an Enermax Galaxy PSU (1000 watt) :D - get some good ol' ddr2-800 ram That's the sweet mobo though fo sho And yeah, the XION is just your run-of-the-mill size case. I like the bigger ones and with the price of the Armour you cant go wrong! If you're going to be moving it lots, get the silver one though. The black one weighs lots since it's steel. 24" widescreen is a nice thing for sure. It's the exact one (dell) that i have. I love it. It definitely increased my accuracy ingame when i switched from my 19" NEC. However, you run at high resolutions then, so things seem smaller again. I guess technically they're about the same size, but there's more to fit on the screen (sort of). I run games at 1680x1050 resolution. The core 2 mobo of the month seems to be the new eVGA nForce 680i I would agree about going down to the core 2 duo 6600 or 6400...They are HIGHLY overclockable...from what I am reading around the boards. Maximum PC mag just built their $1500 budget gaming box and they OC'd their 6200 to 3.05 ghz...that is serious. I too would choose the 8800 GTX over two GTS...save money and the GTS in sli mode only give you a 15-20% (max) advantage over the GTX... 22" monitors are pretty cheap right now...try acer or samsung. However, IF you do go with the 8800GTX and a 22" monitor...it will be overkill. The 22" cannot display high enough resolution (1680 x 1050) to even challenge the 8800GTX... Hell, I have an overclocked Athlon X2 4800 (@ 2.7 ghz) and an severely overclocked 7900GT and the only games that limit me at 1680 x 1050 are F.E.A.R. and Oblivion when I have all the eye candy enabled. You will need a 24" lcd at 1900 x 1200 to challenge that 8800GTX and the core 2 duo. Def go 2 GB ram...at least DDR2 800. As far as cases go: the CM stacker or stacker 2 (830 or whatever it is called) are great cases and will fit your hardware..but they are big and heavy. I know, I have one. A brand new case on the scene that has tremendous cooling and great expandability is the Antec 900. It is really cheap for all the options and it is getting really good reviews. 3 x 120 fans, 1 x 200mm fan! As far as powersupply...again...go with SLI certified and at least 600W. I like Antec and OCZ...but there are others that are just as good.....one caveat...get 4 12V rails...not 2 or 3. I don't know what you are running...but 1000 watt psu is going to be overkill...I just have to say that....sorry. 700 W will run 3 hdd, 2 optical, 1 dual or quad core, 2 vid cards with out breaking a sweat. Hell, 1 8800 GTX is only rated at 164W full bore. Your HDD will max at 40W...geez...come on...Why spend the money for a fring brand 1000w, when 1/2 the cost will get you a name brand 650W or 700W???? Edited January 23, 2007 by Tek-Almighty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfly January 23, 2007 Share dragonfly Member January 23, 2007 (edited) C'mon tek! You gotta flex your e-muscles somehow! Why not the PSU? That way you can install a small fridge in you pc too... hmmm... Yeah, I was thinking of the 680i. Isnt that what that pc builder mentioned (the site he was looking at)? Maybe I just assumed. That antec case looks sweet too. It's also very cheap like the armour (compared to the stacker). It looks a little shorter (only 9 spaces for drives, not 11, imagine that! ) Actually, the more I'm looking at that case, the more I like it. Though, the 200 seems to be overkill... Yeah Tek, my 7900gtx can feel the 1680x1050 with lots of fx on for F.E.A.R. (ie fps sometimes drops to 20ish, though usually about 30) but not for 2k4 at all. All im using is the 4200 @ 2.4, and no OC on the gfx either. If the new ATI card doesnt totally blow the 8800 out of the water, I'm gonna pick me up an 8800 when the price drops a little (after Vista). Edit: for PSU's I've read Antec, OCZ, Enermax and Thermaltake all make good ones. I have the Enermax Noisetaker (600w) and I like it. It's very quiet too, and has 2 fans instead of just the one. If you just stick with those first three brands, you'll find something that you like a lot and for fairly cheap too. PSU is another one of those things you can grab now and hang onto it (heck, even instal it into your machine right now if you wanted to). If you see a really sweet deal on a case or PSU, just grab it now. That's my take on it anyway. They wont get much cheaper. Edited January 23, 2007 by DarkArchon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tek-Almighty January 23, 2007 Share Tek-Almighty Member January 23, 2007 Dark speaks with great wisdom... ahhhhhhhhh... he also kills with great violence...i got pancaked repeatedly the other night on Nepenthe...ouch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincoln6 January 24, 2007 Share Lincoln6 Member January 24, 2007 (edited) Ok, I guess I'm going to have to reload UT 2k4 onto Vista and get back into getting slapped around and just having some general all around fun. LOL Apperently I'm missing some good times here. Wentz, are you back into playing once in a while or just posting up? BTW--can I still play with all you big dogs even though I changed names New hard drive and Vista on the other half of it, and things start to get confusing. For those of you wondering, Games are pretty much installing and playing just fine. DX 10 has put a whole new meaning to the graphics in UT 2k4---- However, you might as well have 2 gigs of ram cause your gonna need it for all the vista stuff and games at the same time. One gig gets a rating of 2.4 out of 5 in an overall vista bench. I'll probably kick up to 2 gigs soon here. Rainbow Six Vegas is a little slugish on Vista. Most everything else is playing ok so far. I think the extra gig of ram should do the trick. See you guys soon. Edited January 24, 2007 by Lincoln6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfly January 24, 2007 Share dragonfly Member January 24, 2007 I'll be grabbing Vista and probably and 8800gtx in the next couple months... I'm a little confused (or just a noob) but if 2k4 is written for dx9, why would having dx10 with a card that's not even supposed to be for dx10 (7900gtx), why would it look any nicer? Anyone? Tek, are you winterwolf or wolf something or other??? The riddle that plagued me for a few weeks now may have just been solved... It's ok though, cause I was playing fairly well and was still getting spanked last night by pure.figment, Grizzle and some other guy (cant remember his name). It was heart-breaking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincoln6 January 24, 2007 Share Lincoln6 Member January 24, 2007 (edited) I'm a little confused (or just a noob) but if 2k4 is written for dx9, why would having dx10 with a card that's not even supposed to be for dx10 (7900gtx), why would it look any nicer? Anyone? Stranger things have happend, lol. Not reallly sure but I'm telling you, it has enhanced the graphics to UT 2k4 somehow. I'm not talking like by leaps and bounds here but if I were to give it a % i would say maybe 10 to 15% more detail, at least on my end. Don't know what else it would be caus my system hasn't changed any where else but that. Anyhow, talk to you guys soon. BTW---does GC still have TS up and running? With the new format i for got to right down the IP #'s for some things and thats one of them. Edited January 24, 2007 by Lincoln6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flitterkill January 25, 2007 Share Flitterkill GC Board Member January 25, 2007 DX 10 has put a whole new meaning to the graphics in UT 2k4---- However, you might as well have 2 gigs of ram cause your gonna need it for all the vista stuff and games at the same time. One gig gets a rating of 2.4 out of 5 in an overall vista bench. I'll probably kick up to 2 gigs soon here. Rainbow Six Vegas is a little slugish on Vista. Most everything else is playing ok so far. I think the extra gig of ram should do the trick. Careful on those vista benchmark ratings. I have a mere 1 gig as well but my rating is 4.3 overall. Not only that, but my UT frames are shot (to the point of unplayable - even the *menus* are giving me sub-40 framerates) I lost at least 20 frames. Now - whether that is vid card drivers (latest nvidia vista drivers though), vid card not up to snuff (6600gt but rates a 5.3 in vista ratings) or whether the 1 gig of ram is just not enough head room (i.e. even though it says I have physical remaining, it may be using swap for the game) No reason for DX10 to do anything for you graphically - seriously - not trying to say you ain't seeing it but UT2K4 is coded for DX8 and nothing more - did you upgrade or reinstall UT? If you reinstalled you have the default midline settings enabled in UT and we (us) might have had you tweak those down to low settings to get your framerates up in the before-vista ,when you still played UT with us times. I'd rather not reinstall to dual boot xp/vista but might get around to it if I'm overly frustrated. True Vista Recommendations: 1) Yes - 2 gig of ram. Just get it over with. 2) User Account Control. Turn it the hell off. You'll understand why soon enough. 3) Gadgets are few at the moment but if you have the screen real estate, they are nice, and the execution is really good. Msoft got this one right. -Fk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tek-Almighty January 25, 2007 Share Tek-Almighty Member January 25, 2007 (edited) I may have a solution to this question...or if not...at least a posit of a theory. IF L6 has a DX10 graphics card (did he mention an 8800?) then because of the algorithms for pixel processing built into the G80 gpu you may actually be seeing more colors...10 bit color pipeline vs. 8 or fewer bit pipelines is a difference between the (and I'm not exagerating here) 1+ billion colors and the 16.7 million colors that dx 9 and lower cards can display. In addition, DX10 cards like the 8800, can force AA processing and CSAA processing on games that do not have that built in... I am not going to get into all the details that I've read about, but the DX10 and direct dc10 API stuff that comes with Vista can actually make DX9 or 8 or ....look better. Try here for some answers/suggestions. And...to answer the question of the 8800GTX vs GTS that was posed earlier...and the PSU overkill stuff we were talking about... check this very in-depth test from techreport.com...it kicks major A**. have fun boys! (and girls?) OH...and DA... I am playing as WinterWolves lately...so that crap talking drunken pancake you saw the other night was me! Edited January 25, 2007 by Tek-Almighty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfly January 25, 2007 Share dragonfly Member January 25, 2007 Great reads Tek. It helped a bit. lol crap talking drunken pancake... you shoulda come back for more tonight! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tek-Almighty January 25, 2007 Share Tek-Almighty Member January 25, 2007 Naww...I stayed up talking crap to NPCs on Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion until midnight last night...me and 1/2 a bottle of Jim Beam... My wife has been issuing smoke from her ears for 24 hours...and won't talk to me...heh! I will be on Thursday around 7 pm if'n you want your butt kicked! ha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaDPaT January 25, 2007 Author Share MaDPaT Member January 25, 2007 Naww...I stayed up talking crap to NPCs on Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion until midnight last night...me and 1/2 a bottle of Jim Beam... My wife has been issuing smoke from her ears for 24 hours...and won't talk to me...heh! I will be on Thursday around 7 pm if'n you want your butt kicked! ha! Tek Almighty, I have been away for a while reading up on computer construction. I just happen this night to read about the 1500 gamings system from maximum pc. There are two mags at moment maximumpc and pcgaminghardware (gpu 7900oc) by maximumpc (gpu 8800gps). The overclocking is insane. Taking a core 2 duo e6300 at 1.86 ghz and pushing it up to 2.86 ghz. I like the eVGA nForce680i SLI mobo. Nice upgrade option with socket type to quad core at later date. Handles ram speeds up to 1022. Both cases looks small and cramp though. I just bought a desk with computer alcove and only have about 9 in width for case. Looking into cases with fan systems that take air from front exhaust to back. Looked at those you guys presented including stacker but late and need to sleep. Thanks for resolution of screens and compatibility to gpu's. Sleepy time. Hope to frag some of you guys soon. This week is my all-time low for ut2004. Only killed cannon fodder a few times yesterday (he killed me an equal amount if not more). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfly January 25, 2007 Share dragonfly Member January 25, 2007 Mad - you COULD always buy the pc you want, and the case you want, and swap it out... Though building yourself is SO much more fun Tek: I have music practice for church thursday night at 7. I think it'll be drums this week. With the first team I play guitar, and with the second team i play on i play bass, but i think we've found anohter bassist, so it's drum time! Supernatural (hilarious show) is on at 10, and smallville is at 11. My thursday is looking booked... I'm sure i'll see you online sometime though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaDPaT January 25, 2007 Author Share MaDPaT Member January 25, 2007 Mad - you COULD always buy the pc you want, and the case you want, and swap it out... Though building yourself is SO much more fun Tek: I have music practice for church thursday night at 7. I think it'll be drums this week. With the first team I play guitar, and with the second team i play on i play bass, but i think we've found anohter bassist, so it's drum time! Supernatural (hilarious show) is on at 10, and smallville is at 11. My thursday is looking booked... I'm sure i'll see you online sometime though! Smallville is on at 8:00 where I am so you must be on the west coast DA. Tek Almighty- the superclocked system in maximumpc uses a Antec900 case with 8800gps graphics card. The gtx version is about an inch longer and requires two power supply inputs to card to work. Coolmaster would work but and inch wider than my desk tower alcove. Still researching. Like the antec 900 solor scheme, fans, and lighting but could be too small for 8800gtx. Future card from ati may even be longer? Need to wait and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tek-Almighty January 26, 2007 Share Tek-Almighty Member January 26, 2007 Mad - you COULD always buy the pc you want, and the case you want, and swap it out... Though building yourself is SO much more fun Tek: I have music practice for church thursday night at 7. I think it'll be drums this week. With the first team I play guitar, and with the second team i play on i play bass, but i think we've found anohter bassist, so it's drum time! Supernatural (hilarious show) is on at 10, and smallville is at 11. My thursday is looking booked... I'm sure i'll see you online sometime though! Bah!...if I were you, I'd look for reasons to avoid me too. MP...the 6300 is a good cpu...i've hear lots about the mad OC abilities of the 6400 and 6600.. I would say, get the largest L2 cache you can, b/c that makes a big difference in gaming. then overclock from there! That insane overclock from MaximumPC was done using the STOCK HEATSINK/FAN!!! crazy... Also, it is best to save even $100 on a CPU and spend that on RAM or vid card or most importantly MOBO...a good motherboard that is rock solid and can overclock will beat the heck outta other investments and pay for itself down the road.! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfly January 26, 2007 Share dragonfly Member January 26, 2007 Im actually in the Easter timezone, and practicing through 8 (it's on at 8 too) so i am watching at 11. lol Tek, you saw right through me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaDPaT February 16, 2007 Author Share MaDPaT Member February 16, 2007 I have been reviewing info on system. How does this look. Cost is about 2500. Motherboard EVGA 122-CK-NF68-AR LGA 775 NVIDIA nForce 680i SLI ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail CPU Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 Conroe 2.4GHz LGA 775 Processor Model BX80557E6600 - Retail Ram Crucial Ballistix 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - RetailBL2KIT12864AA804 Video Card EVGA 640-P2-N821-AR GeForce 8800GTS 640MB 320-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 HDCP Video Card - Retail (overclocked version 20 dollars more) Case Customized Antec Nine Hundred Power Source COOLER MASTER Real Power Pro RS-850-EMBA ATX12V / EPS12V 850W Hard Drive Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD5000KSRTL 500GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - Retail Optical Drive Lite-On SH-16A7S Super Allwrite / 16x DVD±R Burn & Read / 8x DVD+R / 6x DVD-RW / 8x DVD±R DL / 12x DVD-RAM / SATA / Internal DVD Burner Sound Card Creative SOUND BLASTER X-Fi Fatal1ty FPS 7.1 Channels 24-bit 96KHz PCI Interface Sound Card - Retail Operating System Microsoft Windows XP Professional with SP2 - Retail Get a free upgrade to Vista w/ purchase of Windows XP, ends 3/15 This will be my first built system. Any ideas. Went with gts as opposed to gtx video card due to price, size not good for case, and 2 power inputs. It is an sli system but confused to get standard 8800gts or overclocked gts. Only 20 dollar differ but if I remember, both (when I get second gts) have to have same speed? Most is from Newegg.com how do you guys feel about this source? MaDPaT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfly February 17, 2007 Share dragonfly Member February 17, 2007 gts and gtx have different ram amounts, and speeds by about 50-100 mhz if I remember correctly. Here's my 2 cents: -I just installed the eVGA 680i sli motherboard today. In 4 hours i still like it... -I just installed the 6600 today too, and at stock speeds i like it so far. I will someday get it to 3.0 though -If you get an 8800, I'd go for the KO version (or OC'd) since it's priced closer to the 8800gts, yet has closer clock speeds to the gtx. At least taht's teh case at ncix.com. When you sli cards they have ot have the same chip. I'm sure Tek will clear that up. -How could you use 500gb? If you cant really, go for something smaller. Best $/gb I've found is at ncix.com, get a 250gb SATAII (WD) for $87. Cheap and quality too. -Definitely dont go for the fatality model. The only diff between that and the one step down (platinum, the one i have) is the x-ram, which really wont help you at all, and sounds no better either. It's kind of a waste of $70 or whatever the difference is imho. -I think i read about that ram not being great for overclocking at all... though I could be wrong. I just went with the OCZ Gold XTC ram (ddr2-800, pc6700). It works fine and OC's by about 100mhz. If newegg would ship to canada, i'd buy my stuff from them for sure! As is, they dont, so I dont get to be as lucky as you in that regard. You planning on using the stock heatsink? If you're not going to overclock, do that and save yourself $40. If you are going to OC at all, then spend a little money on a good one. I love my Tt big typhoon, but she sure is big. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaDPaT February 17, 2007 Author Share MaDPaT Member February 17, 2007 gts and gtx have different ram amounts, and speeds by about 50-100 mhz if I remember correctly. Here's my 2 cents: -I just installed the eVGA 680i sli motherboard today. In 4 hours i still like it... -I just installed the 6600 today too, and at stock speeds i like it so far. I will someday get it to 3.0 though -If you get an 8800, I'd go for the KO version (or OC'd) since it's priced closer to the 8800gts, yet has closer clock speeds to the gtx. At least taht's teh case at ncix.com. When you sli cards they have ot have the same chip. I'm sure Tek will clear that up. -How could you use 500gb? If you cant really, go for something smaller. Best $/gb I've found is at ncix.com, get a 250gb SATAII (WD) for $87. Cheap and quality too. -Definitely dont go for the fatality model. The only diff between that and the one step down (platinum, the one i have) is the x-ram, which really wont help you at all, and sounds no better either. It's kind of a waste of $70 or whatever the difference is imho. -I think i read about that ram not being great for overclocking at all... though I could be wrong. I just went with the OCZ Gold XTC ram (ddr2-800, pc6700). It works fine and OC's by about 100mhz. If newegg would ship to canada, i'd buy my stuff from them for sure! As is, they dont, so I dont get to be as lucky as you in that regard. You planning on using the stock heatsink? If you're not going to overclock, do that and save yourself $40. If you are going to OC at all, then spend a little money on a good one. I love my Tt big typhoon, but she sure is big. Thanks for input. I do alot of photography and need space for the photos with 500 gb hd. So I can burn later dvd. Need alot of photo space. As a teacher I document everything and back it up on DVD. I will get the ko version of 8800 gts. I will look into the lower end model of sound card. I will also look into the ocz golt xt ram. I am concerned about the size of the tt big typhoon with my antec 900. I will overclock in future but not yet. One hurdle at a time. Should purchase in a day or two. By the way, do these coolers come with the heat sink "goop" or pad or do I need to purchase this also? I have been getting my donkey shot off in UT2004 by a Dark Irkon-any relation to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flitterkill February 17, 2007 Share Flitterkill GC Board Member February 17, 2007 Im actually in the Easter timezone, Why can't all timezones have free eggs and candy? No fair. -Fk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfly February 18, 2007 Share dragonfly Member February 18, 2007 HAHAHHA dark/|rchon? That's me, the one who just joined up the other week? Check out that WD drive anyway for 250gigs, and get 2 of them. Unless of course it's cheaper to get the 500 instead. Personally, I'd liek to have 2 drives. You can use one for OS and games, and one for storage. I guess you could do that with partitions anyway, but it's cool having 2 The Tt big typhoon is really big. There's smaller ones that would work well too, though I cant speak from personal experience. The stock HS that comes with the 6600 has goop on it already, so dont worry about that. And I think all the ones that you would buy (Tt or whatever) come wiht their own goop too. You'd have to put it on though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaDPaT February 18, 2007 Author Share MaDPaT Member February 18, 2007 HAHAHHA dark/|rchon? That's me, the one who just joined up the other week? Check out that WD drive anyway for 250gigs, and get 2 of them. Unless of course it's cheaper to get the 500 instead. Personally, I'd liek to have 2 drives. You can use one for OS and games, and one for storage. I guess you could do that with partitions anyway, but it's cool having 2 The Tt big typhoon is really big. There's smaller ones that would work well too, though I cant speak from personal experience. The stock HS that comes with the 6600 has goop on it already, so dont worry about that. And I think all the ones that you would buy (Tt or whatever) come wiht their own goop too. You'd have to put it on though. I am keeping my original planned ram. Good reviews from newegg. The hd gets good review but I will get two smaller drives. Reviews not as good as 500 gb model but 2 160 gb models more to what I need. Needed you last night. Bushwack and I only ones on nepenthe. Got killed over and over. Got to learn to dodge. or find help barrel over and over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaDPaT February 18, 2007 Author Share MaDPaT Member February 18, 2007 I just found out my monitor is listed at 35 ms response time. Could this be the cause of my "slow motion" I sometime experience? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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