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Thoughts/Perspectives on the Bible

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Actually, come to think of it, I'm going to invent the math that deals only with pure illogic. When I'm rich I'll send you all $10 000 just for pretending to be my friends :)

well i'm expecting 10,000 by april 13th 2054 just so know now :)

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NOFX - I'm in university for math and computer science, so I do understand that logic is absolutely 100% essential for almost everything in life (to understand how it works anyway, as well as for making new technology). But what I'm trying to say is that life, heck, the universe itself is bigger than logic. Logic is used/needed everywhere it seems, but it's still contained in this universe. Just a small example: forgiveness is almost never the logical thing to do. If someone hurts you, why let them back in and/or get away with what they did?


Although computers may be able to do far more calculations per second than the human brain, the brain is far more complicated than a computer. Computers/AI cannot take emotion into consideration when making decisions (not base decisions on emotion, but have that factor as well) which is part of what makes people people. You yourself said people make decisions based on emotion, which is illogical. So if I try to explain to someone why my mom made a certain decision, I can't only use logical language.


lol sorry to get so off topic :( I'm really bad for that. What about the John stuff? Did any of that make sense (logical ;) )


forgiveness is logical:



decisions based on emotion may seem illogical to other people, but it is logical to the person who made it; heck, even mentally unstable people who do crazy things, to us they are illogical but to the crazy guy, he weighed all the factors in and decided to proceed; it depends on what is more important to each one of us;


with that in mind, just saying that "oh, the universe (and everything in it) is so big, complex, etc. that it is impossible for *insert theory here, popular one is evolution* to explain it is impossible, OBVIOUSLY there must be a higher being" is a ridiculous statement in my opinion; somebody once made a good point about the teaching of evolution vs creationism in the schools: just because of a few flaws in the theory of evolution, despite the mountain of evidence backing it up, we choose to dispose of this theory and teach something that has completely no evidence to sustain it to our schoolchildren


there is a difference between astrology and astronomy; there is a difference between alchemy and chemistry; there is a difference between creationism vs evolution


i think i am definitely diverting this topic....my mind just rambles on :shrug03:

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I agree questioning your belliefs is VERY healthy. I did this and now I'm a christian universalist. I'll give some thoughts on why I agree with Archon as to my belief in scripture (jewish) being authentic and why Judean christian beliefs are set apart.


The Exodus.

Within the universalists frame work the scriptures do something NO OTHER BOOK (that I know of) does; 3 dimensional parallels. I use 3D only to communicate the thought because there are more than 3 parallels ofter.


George Lucas (who I believe might be a U) obviously took notice of this notion of the bible and built a scince fiction story.


In the Exodus the story that is written thousands of years before the messiash arrives the story line takes a "NON" literal approcah and CLEARLY resonates the story of GOLGATHA.

Isreal is in bondage to egypt. God tells moses to tell pharoa "let my people go" and "tell pharoa, Isreal is my first born son". The story though takes turns that is quite interesting. The model of Joshua (Jesus' name in hebrew) who is moses, is almost killed as an infant and ends up in the hands of the pharoas daughter in Egypt (this happened to Joshua whos mother took him to Egypt). Eventually Moses is called by God (paralleled with The Son of God) to lead Isreal from the bondage of Egypt. Moses also parallels every chrsitian who is called to go unto all nations. God CAUSES pharoa to have a hard heart so that he will disobey his command to release Isreal. God pours out his wrath upon Egypt and at the death of the first born son, the slaughter of the lamb the pharoas heart is broken (salvation) and he obeys God and Isreal is released from the bondage of Egypt.


To romans: For God has bound all men to disobedience.


Isreal is a model of Adam. Adam fell from his place with God and was bound to sin (death) symetrical with Isreal being in bondage to Egypt. God wants to save Adam and shows through the Exodus his redmeption and how he will accomplish this.


Thousands of years later Jesus WHO IS NOT ONLY THE SON OF GOD, BUT IS GOD. Comes not only as Adams son (the son of man [adam]) but also as his father (prince of peace, mighty God, everlasting Father) to save his son (TRINITY).


He deomonstrates NOT HIS HUMANITY in the garden before the crucifixion but HIS DEITY because he knows the story of Abraham all too well...

Abraham led his son up to the mount God had shown him (believed to be golgatha) and laid him upon the altar...

But Jesus knows there is a part that happens before.... Abraham BINDS his son with rope.

Jesus knows this and he is about to be "BOUND TO DISOBEDIENCE" just as Adam was (DEATH).

A holy God does not Die and it is his last enemy to be destroyed.

Jesus is put upon a cross Used by acient cultures for capital punishment.


Back to the Exodus:

Before God tatkes the first born son, he tells Moses, take a Spotless lamb and slaughter it. Take it's blood and place the blood on the center left frame and center right frame and center top frame. The symbol shows a cross which was not EVER of the jewish culture (still is not today). dont you find that wierd?


Isreal is released from the bondage of Egypt as God breaks Pharoa

Jesus is raised from the dead as God breaks the power of death


Now not only is Isreal a model of Jesus being raised from the dead,

they simotaneously are a model of the whole world being reconciled from death to life (col 1: for God was pleased to reconcile unto himself all things by making peace upon the cross)

They also are a model the bride of Christ who is led out of a sinful life into a spiritual life. (see the whole nt)


Pharoa models death whos power holds Isreal in bondage

Simoteanously pharoa models every man who is a sinful man who God breaks (humbles).


Moses models the messiah who leads each person from death to life

at the same time models God who rasies Jesus from the dead.


now this leads to Isreal being free and receiving the law. But the law which MOST people believed was designed to save them FRAMED them to make the very thing that the exodus was about to happen.


The pharisees were like us LITERALIST. The messiah comes and begins to preach things which are not of scirpture.

1) YOU SHALL NOT DO ANY WORK on the sabbath.

Jesus begins to teach you can do good work.


Many times Jesus does what the law says NOT TO DO and thus they designate him as a law breaker.

thousands of years before David writes..."He was numbered among the transgressors".


The pharisees thus prosecute him seeing he has power from satan. The law which demands that they (isreal) abstain from unclean foods, DO NOT WORK on the sabbath, Stone adultresses, Do no touch unclean people, puts this man Jesus upon the cross to kill him.


The stories are so ELOQUENTLY flowing I'm amazed it could be this consistent by so many writers through so many years.


Jesus is Adams son (Eve is told, you will bear a son and he will crush the serpent head and he will bruise his heel)

Jesus is Adams father (Creator of all things, for all things were created for him, through him...)


The story is not only that God gave his son...ITS BETTER

God DIED FOR HIS CHILDREN to defeat death.

This is why he must go to the cross. Not to appease an angry God. The only way to defeat death (to save his children adam and eve) is to die.

So when he prays "let this cup pass" it's a def NO! YOU MUST DIE so he might defeat death.


The other notions that ring about that are SO antitheitcal to any religion I know of is the REVERSAL.

This means, like the law, God is angry and needs blood. He DEMOLISHES the wicked. But later we find God loves the wicked.

When God seems like one who only blesses those who do good and seek him, he prays "Father forgive them, they know not what they do"


and a VERY unique doctrine is birthed...




Christianity endorses that forgivness is a form of JUSTICE which (even christians today) most people do not endorse.


Whatever the case I find it odd that a symbol within this story is the very symbol ROME uses (not the jews) to kill the messiah. It is the very symbol that the blood on the door shows and the power of death (Egypt) is destoryed and Isreal (the world) is saved.


After the exodus, Moses is not allowed to enter the holy land???


Who does God appoint to lead Isreal into the holy land....JOSHUA (Jesus' name in hebrew). Then Joshua is commanded to WIPE out the inhabitants.


People struggle with these texts saying God is merciless, but he is not, because (with the universalist framework) those who are destroyed are a part of God showing the whole world that he will deal with sin and save the WHOLE WORLD (Isreal). So Isreal in this case is a model of a sinner being led from death to life (promise land) by Joshua (Jesus)

who destroys the sin in the promise land. Isreal also STILL models Jesus inherits the promise land and reigns. For God gives him dominion of the whole world, which is what happens with adam (dominon over the earth).


to close a bit about Adam.


Most people believe all men were created in the image of God (because of parallels)l; it is true and not true.

Adam was created in the image of God but it is a reference to Jesus (according to paul in corinthains) who is the image of God.

but adam fell and lost the image and bore the image of another (satan).

The pharisees are called sons of Satan.

When one is saved (born again) he begins to become transformed into the image of Jesus (who is the image of God).


So the "image of God" is a reference to the Son of God found in Genesis.

Adam who is in the image of God, is God's first born son, given domion over the earth, whom God loves.

Jesus is the Image of God, is First born over all creation, given dominion over all the earth, whom God loves.


These references in Genesis are not stating that Adam failed and therfore God went into plan B, Jesus.

It was God's plan all along for Adam to fail (For God has bound all men over to disobedience - romans 11)

The references are ALL ABOUT JESUS which is why he tells Isreal (I've come to fullfill the law and the prophets).



moving along to psalms...

David makes many comments about the Son of God which I doubt he even thought about. "they have pierced my hands and my feet" which is totally out of context.

It's poetry David writes and yet this is the thing the writers of the NT pick up on. Now of course the writes could have simply created the crucifixion story and MADE it

align with old testament.


But The cross seems poblematic since it was Rome who employed the symbol and it is the symbol found int he exodus story of the blood of the lamb on the wood frames on the door. Rome, I feel had no reason to read jewish lit. to figure a way to create a capital punishment system.


So all in all I feel the story is WAY too dynamic for any of these men, especially through thousands of years by many writers.


Perhaps a few books all in a relative short time but over a long span of time it seems to be problematic. The NUANCES of these models and parallels seems to me to be too fine and to multi dimensional to have whiped up. I figure there would be FAR greater inconsitencies. But from what I can see, there are Too many which range from Gen to Rev.


Hope this makes sense : )



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The law which demands that they (isreal) abstain from unclean foods, DO NOT WORK on the sabbath, Stone adultresses, Do no touch unclean people

Yeah, stay away from my food! Can't say I agree with the "no touchee" part though. :P


And auggy - it looked like you posted a lot of information. In fact, it's 4-5 pages worth. It would be a lot easier to read/respond to information you have if you kept post sizes to the length of the other participants of this thread. :)

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So all in all I feel the story is WAY too dynamic for any of these men, especially through thousands of years by many writers.


I thought you posted very clearly. For those of you who don't have a TONNE of time to read, just read my above quote. It sums up his whole post. If you want the details (ie, "what makes you say that, auggybendoggy?"), they're all plainly above in his own post. :smillie_smilling:


It's a good read. I read 5/6 of it and I enjoyed my read.

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