the LAW (baptism, communion...)

[auggybendoggy]

Can anyone tell me if the law is a must. I did not take communion last week cause I feel the real reason is more important than the actual ceremony of the event. I feel we don't even need to take it or be baptized.

anyone got any thoughts on this.

 

Auggy

[PuppySurprise]

baptism is in the bible as a (not so much a condition) to prove your faith and become a Christian, but almost a sense of respect for the role you are now taking as a born again person, which is why you are dunked under water and be born again, into "newness of life". I don't feel that being baptised (although I am) draws you any nearer to the Lord, because its not a stipulation that you must be baptised to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, it says that only through Jesus are you saved, not only through jesus--via--preacher--via--baptism. I feel baptism is the right thing to do, mainly for yourself and it brings you into a special realtionship with God, but not necessary and you dont HAVE to do it to be saved.

[Playaa]

I haven't totally made up my mind on Baptism...because I've heard great arguments for both sides.

but here's how I look at it:

even IF baptism isn't required for salvation, it is 100% CLEAR from the Bible that Christ is asking us to do it...whether your reasons be for salvation or to show the world who you are now or just to please God...I don't see any reason NOT to get baptised.

I've heard people say they won't do it because they're making a point to those who say they MUST be baptised. Well I say God doesn't care about your point...he asked you to get baptised (that is definatly clear) so you have no reason to NOT be baptised.

[auggybendoggy]

My feelings are what does the baptism mean?

 

is baptism really dealing with H2o? Much like communion. Were told do this in rem. of me...

what if someone remembers him w/o doing it. Has he voilated and thus sinned?

I tend to think not. I feel if a man lives the Life God intended (love God and others) and

does not get baptized...God sees his as if he was baptized because of his life he lives.

Much like the argument paul makes concerning circumcision. If a man (not a jew) obeys

the law does God not see him as if he was circumcised? So if a man lives a life committed to

God does God not see him as baptized into his body?

 

If it doesnt bring us closer to God than how does it take us into a special relationship with God?

 

If it does not change salvation then how is it lawful. I think I'm leaning in a very liberal way of saying

we are free from law. we are now connected to something MUCH greater...LOVE.

 

I don't think God cares if were dunked in water...I think he cares if we love him and others.

The commandments he gives are reflections to a greater point....LOVE ONE ANOTHER that your joy may be full.

if you can obey (love) w/o being dunked or eating hawwian bread and welches grape juice than

I think you've accomplished all Jesus has asked of us. The ceremonys mean nothing.

 

Am I a Heretic?

 

Auggy

Edited December 13, 2003 by auggybendoggy

[Trouble .gc]

my take on baptism: people are born with original sin. when you are baptized these sins are washed away.

the catholic religion also states in order to enter the "Kingdom of God" man must be born again of water and the Holy Ghost. (baptism) you are blessed with holy water and oil.

 

In the catholic religion, baptism is a sacrement...(1 of 7) so is the Eucharist. when i went to church, i would always take...its the part of the mass, i feel, when you can be closest with Jesus...because it has been blessed.

 

Just my opinion.

[dwEEziL]

My belief is that Jesus calls us to be baptized but it is definitely not a requirement for salvation. The only thing that I have found that is a requirement for salvation is to accept Jesus as your personal savior. The "born of water" means natural birth where a woman's water breaks prior to giving birth.

 

That being said, I am a big proponent of baptism as it is how we as Christians identify with Christ's death, burial and resurrection. When we are dipped, it marks Christ's death on the cross and burial (entombment), showing how we also have died to this world and our old sin nature. Coming out of the water corresponds to His resurrection and signifies our new, spiritual birth and our chosen path of Life dedicated to Him.

Edited December 15, 2003 by dwEEziL

[auggybendoggy]

I dont think h20 does anything like marking us.

 

I think theres something more to all this. I havent time to express my ideas so I'll do it tomorrow.

 

auggy

[dwEEziL]

Not marks as in a physical or spiritual mark. I mean it is our way of identifying with Christ's death and burial. An outward expression of what has happened inside our lives if you will.

[auggybendoggy]

Dweez,

Thats what I've been taught since my childhood. But now that I'm questioning the law in our lives I'm also wondering about NT laws or commandments.

 

What is baptism anyhow? When I read it seems to be some sort of symbol God issued to show us things. For example the flood was a sort of baptism. Now dunking in water is a form of baptism. But is it dunking in water (the details) that matter. If the details don't matter than does it matter at all?

 

Is it a sin not to get baptized? I've been raised in the way of thinking of NO.

however we express to people its a public pronounciation of our faith leaving

no option for the person. I see the only alternative as "deny your faith" if you

choose not to get baptized. So people get baptized.

 

My feelings are its not these commandments that we are to obey. but rather what the

commandments are trying to point us to. Otherwise the law does make or break us.

 

Was the Thief on the cross baptized? My upbringing has taught me "no"

but now I believe he was. Not in the ceremonial sense of it but I feel

God does not care about that just the same as with circumcision.

Does God care that a man is circumcised outwardly?

 

Auggy

[dwEEziL]

Like I said, this is not a requirement for salvation. It is something we are asked to do by Christ (Go into all the world, making disciples, baptizing them) as well as Communion (This do in rememberance of me). I also don't like the ritualistic "laws" that traditional churches have placed. I don't perform communion or baptism because I must. I do it because I want to (in my heart...it is my desire to please Christ).

[auggybendoggy]

dweez i totally am coming from that.

 

I do feel like I'm stepping a bit further in saying.

 

You can please Christ w/o doing the ceremonys becuase its the intent of baptism and communions that counts.

in other words you are doing them but not in the legalistic letter of details.

 

It's much like not bearing false wittness. Rahab lied, yet she is commended for her faith in Hebrews.

Her faith produced a lie. But it was good. Did she obey the law or break it. I say she obeyed.

I don't think she broke it at all. So if a man is remembering christs teachins and what he did for us daily,

then that man is in a constant communion and therfore does not need to do the ceremony because he realized the ceremony is trying to make him do what he already does. He already communes.

If a man totally seeks God and loves others as himself then he already is baptized. The water means nothing, the symbol means nothing. What counts is God in his heart.

 

So if he does not get baptized in water is he less of a christian? Is he missing out? I don't think so....

I think he like the thief is baptized but people think its being dunked in h20 that makes them baptized.

 

Aug

[dwEEziL]

Is it a sin not to get baptized?  I've been raised in the way of thinking of NO.

however we express to people its a public pronounciation of our faith leaving

no option for the person.  I see the only alternative as "deny your faith" if you

choose not to get baptized.  So people get baptized.

I don't see it that way. I was never pressured to get baptized. My pastor taught on it and I eventually felt prompted to do it, not out of any pressure of obligation but because I wanted to. I felt Jesus calling me to do it, to identify with Him in His work of salvation and to announce that that rebirth had been made in me.

 

My feelings are its not these commandments that we are to obey.  but rather what the

commandments are trying to point us to.  Otherwise the law does make or break us.

 

These are not commandments. Also, we as Christians are no longer bound by the Law. Christ's act on the cross was a fulfillment of the OT laws and released us from them. The laws were not originally made to be followed completely...it is impossible (I believe it was Paul who said that). God even said that obedience is desired over the law. Jesus said to keep one part of the law (such as the 10 commandments) you must keep them all to be saved. He then summed up the Spirt of God with "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself".

 

Paul said that are things are now lawful for us but not all things are profitable. Meaning that we are no longer bound by any laws and all things are allowable for us to do. But just because we can do anything and not lose our salvation by any one thing does not mean we should do anything. A practice of doing things spirtual harmful can lead us down a path, IMO, that would cause us to choose to walk away from God and eventually, possibly forfeit our place with Him.

 

Was the Thief on the cross baptized?  My upbringing has taught me "no"

but now I believe he was.  Not in the ceremonial sense of it but I feel

God does not care about that just the same as with circumcision.

Does God care that a man is circumcised outwardly? 

 

I don't believe he was baptized. I also don't feel it is required. All that is required is belief and he definitely showed that. That is why Christ said he would be with Him that evening in paradise. And God does not care about outward circumcision. This again was just one of the laws laid out in the OT to help the jewish people follow the Spirit of the Law. God cares about the circumcision of the heart where we have given ourselves to Him and follow the desires of His heart not the laws, rules, and rituals of organized churches.

[dwEEziL]

After reading your last post, it sounds like we are pretty much in agreement. I have been working this stuff out for most of my life (Saved at 3 and was baptized then, fell away until I was 18, then started searching after His heart for my own reasons, not others, for the past 13 years) and could care less what most people tell me is true. I search it out in the scriptures and decide for myself with His leading.

[auggybendoggy]

Dweez, right on! A man to respect!

Thats how I am now. Thats why I am questioning so many things. Yes I have no problems with what you express although we do disagree on some details.

 

I guess my thoughts are concerning the thief is the same as circumcision. The man got circumcised. He got Baptized. He entered communion. We just are blind to it. Alot of people (catholic, mormon) seem to see a great importance in the actual act and product. I am going in a total opposite direction. I think they are DEAD wrong. It's not eating baked dough and squeezed fermented grapes that is communion. It is the other part.

 

let me break it down

1) do this

2) remember me

 

People make part 1 (ceremony) as a automatic to number 2

 

I think to commit number 2 daily is what he asks. This is my point of communion. sort of like Kieth Green in "to obey is better than sacrifice...I want more than sundays and wednsday nights...cause if you cant come to me every day then don't bother coming at all."

 

So the point blank question is this

is Jesus command saying:

 

1) do this ceremony so that you will remember me now and then to keep the course.

 

or

 

2) keep all that I've taught you with you and in your heart daily, remember what I'm doing for you and teach it to others.

 

we treat it as 1 but I'm reading between the lines. I think its 2. If a man does live a godly life he is commiting this and if he never commits to the ceremony, it means nothing to God, his loving God and others is what God accepts as his "ceremonial" communion.

 

The same thing with Rahab

how do you read the commandment

 

1) thou shalt not bear false wittness against thy neighbor

 

or

 

2) Don't practice deceit. Love one another and Love God with all your heart. Tell the truth that LOVE MAY TRIUMPH.

 

Rahab I think practiced no. 2 and thus she obeyed the 10 commandments. She followed the most excellent way of love rather than law.

 

I think we do the same with baptism, communion and many other things. Kieth green had a teaching tape called

Devotion or devotions. I think I'm on to what he talked about. It's been years since I've heard it but I'd like to go over

it since I've matured some

 

Auggy