Playaa May 25, 2004 Share Playaa Member May 25, 2004 alright...I guess I should amend it to: "God allows me to be a lustful male" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower May 25, 2004 Author Share Watchtower Member May 25, 2004 Judge judge judge. I simply asked a question in the hopes that someone with direct experience(family members, homosexuals themselves) could comment. Fact is we know little about gender identity and the roots of sexual association as Black stated we have a very Biased Society. Homosexuals we're not permitted to express their feelings and they still aren't really. All the stereotypes and negative connotations that go along with it cause them grief and keep them hidden.. Until recently. Now more people are talking about it. It's still "taboo" in Our society, but at least it's being recognized and talked about. My goal was to provide some enlightenment to lives those who don't have much experience with homosexuality itself. If you brother was lame, you'd have a realll hard time saying it is wrong and since you guys brought it up, Damning. I can't believe God would put someone in that situation. Once it is proven that homosexuality is in some cases a congenital disposition, are you still going to try to make the same argument? I doubt it. You all still hold onto the fact that there are no "scientific evidence" that you are born lame. Even though there is.. it's a "hey you crazy hateful Christians, defend yourself" topic... I take offence to that. Cross-cultural study: Whitham and Mathy studied 375 homosexual men in Brazil, Guatemala, Peru, the Philippines, Thailand and the United States. 7 They consistently found that 25% of homosexual men display highly gender atypical behavior, while 50% showed marked gender atypical behavior as young children. They played with what are normally considered girls' toys and were regarded as sissies. These studies also find the same effect among adult lesbians; however, the percentages are much lower. Hmmmmm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwEEziL May 25, 2004 Share dwEEziL Member May 25, 2004 Judge judge judge Who is? I simply asked a question in the hopes that someone with direct experience(family members, homosexuals themselves) could comment. Ok, I have a cousin who is lame. He himself says it is wrong and struggles with it daily. Does he still fall to temptation? Yes, and yet he still holds to his belief. My goal was to provide some enlightenment to lives those who don't have much experience with homosexuality itself. This is the "noble cause" arguing I spoke of before. I am inferring from this statement that you KNOW you are right and wish to help uncloud my mind (and forgive me if I am inferring incorrectly, but that is what I get from the original post coupled with this statement). These type of "debates" aren't worth debating because one never feels like it is possible they might be wrong so they are always closed to the opposition's statements. If you brother was lame, you'd have a realll hard time saying it is wrong and since you guys brought it up, Damning. See my comment about my cousin above. Now, do I love him any less. No. I can differentiate between the person and the action. I can't believe God would put someone in that situation. He didn't. God made a perfect utopia for us. Adam gave it to Satan and from that point on, we have lived in a fallen and dying world. Have your parents ever given you responsibility over something and you ended up screwing it up? Did you have to live with the consequences? Once it is proven that homosexuality is in some cases a congenital disposition, are you still going to try to make the same argument? I doubt it. You all still hold onto the fact that there are no "scientific evidence" that you are born lame. Even though there is.. First you say "Once it is proven...", then you say we say there is no scientific evidence "even though there is". Show me some scientific evidence that can prove more than just conjecture. Even evidence, when the findings are written up, is subject to the bias of the researcher. Give me some of this scientific evidence that has stood up to peer review by other groups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwEEziL May 25, 2004 Share dwEEziL Member May 25, 2004 it's a "hey you crazy hateful Christians, defend yourself" topic... I take offence to that. Yes, I figured you would, and rightly so. Playaa, you have not right to say this. You can say that you feel this way about it but I am sure that is not WT's intent. Also, while I am sympathetic with your feelings, there are a ton of better ways to convey your feelings then attacking like this. Please remove/edit that line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwEEziL May 25, 2004 Share dwEEziL Member May 25, 2004 Cross-cultural study: Whitham and Mathy studied 375 homosexual men in Brazil, Guatemala, Peru, the Philippines, Thailand and the United States. 7 They consistently found that 25% of homosexual men display highly gender atypical behavior, while 50% showed marked gender atypical behavior as young children. They played with what are normally considered girls' toys and were regarded as sissies. These studies also find the same effect among adult lesbians; however, the percentages are much lower. Hmmmmm Hmmm, is it me or does that quote seem to imply that society had a major effect on these people becoming homosexuals? "They played with what are normally considered girls' toys and were regarded as sissies." And hence they started acting in a manner society accused them of. I see NOTHING that helps suggest that homosexuality is linked to genetics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playaa May 25, 2004 Share Playaa Member May 25, 2004 sorry, if you guys once again want to see insult where I was stating fact go for it...and remove the line yourself if you want...but I stand by it. let's go back to the beginning here. Is homosexuality strictly a "choice" and inheritantly wrong. If yes, I would like you to cite a reason you might think they would want to choose that type of lifestyle. first off, Watch...right there you use the word "wrong" which to a Christian is the same as "sin" therefore you DID bring up sin in this topic. Second, you do not provide any alternative...you also only ask that those who disagree with you provide proof why. Had you asked for everyone to provide proof and not biased your question with the "inherently wrong" statement...then this WOULD be a valid topic...however as it stands... it's a "hey you crazy hateful Christians, defend yourself" topic... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playaa May 25, 2004 Share Playaa Member May 25, 2004 forgot a couple things. You all still hold onto the fact that there are no "scientific evidence" that you are born lame. Even though there is.. pardon? please provide this revolutionary evidence so that we can stop this entire debate. I take offence to that. please see: Judge judge judge. I believe the old adage of "plank in your eye, splinter in mine" can be called up here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwEEziL May 25, 2004 Share dwEEziL Member May 25, 2004 Or my favorite. "Pot meet Kettle. Kettle, Pot." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower May 26, 2004 Author Share Watchtower Member May 26, 2004 How am I judging anyone? I made this topic so people that had a valid perspective, ie; knowing a family member being lame, being lame yourself, having long term, real life acquaintances would speak up. I personally know people that have been "lame" their whole lives... If you don't, you seem to have a differing opinion. I worded it as so to keep all the bible beating out. first off, Watch...right there you use the word "wrong" which to a Christian is the same as "sin" therefore you DID bring up sin in this topic. Did I post this in "Spirituality"? Since you can't look outside your religion I guess this statement would be true to you. Not everything that is "wrong" is laid out as a sin. And not all "sins" are necessarily seen as "wrong" anymore. Sorry. pardon? please provide this revolutionary evidence so that we can stop this entire debate. Did you not read that study I cited? Let me quote it again for you. Cross-cultural study: Whitham and Mathy studied 375 homosexual men in Brazil, Guatemala, Peru, the Philippines, Thailand and the United States. 7 They consistently found that 25% of homosexual men display highly gender atypical behavior, while 50% showed marked gender atypical behavior as young children. They played with what are normally considered girls' toys and were regarded as sissies. These studies also find the same effect among adult lesbians; however, the percentages are much lower. Myth #5: Homosexuality is a mental illness. Reality: While once classified as a mental illness, both the American Psychiatric Association and the American Psychological Association have removed homosexuality from their list of mental disorders. Numerous studies have shown that homosexuality is not linked with psychological disturbance and is in no sense a "mental problem." Until recently, most theorists and therapists tended to view homosexuality as a deviant or aberrant form of behavior -- a view still widely held by the general public and by certain religious groups. Cross-cultural evidence demonstrates that same-sex behavior in many societies may be regarded as different but not morally defective or psychologically abnormal. Indeed, various indigenous groups, such as the Sambia on the island of New Guinea, actually have a form of socially-institutionalized and approved form of homosexuality in which adolescent males engage in same-sex acts, such as fellatio, before marrying a woman and rearing a family. Some males may choose to restrict their behavior to same-sex acts after adolescence and some married males may occasionally engage in same-sex acts. By contrast, Western psychology and psychiatry, at least until relatively recently, have tended to regard same-sex behavior as abnormal and the product of inappropriate gender socialization. Although Freud argued that humans are born with a bisexual nature which in time becomes mediated by culture, the American Psychiatric Association up until 1973 had designated homosexuality as a pathological form of behavior. The Association lifted its claim that homosexuality is abnormal in 1974, and now maintains that there is no scientific evidence that demonstrates the effectiveness of any therapies that attempt to transform homosexuals into heterosexuals. In 1994, the American Medical Association, a traditionally conservative organization, called for "a non-judgmental recognition of sexual orientation by physicians." Just the tip of the iceberg.. Other studies I could cite. I personally know 2 people, pretty much my whole life that were definitely "different". I've done my own studies and have made my own conclusions. Just got off the phone with my mom and we were talking about the lame guy she's know since childhood.. I wish I would have taped it.. Anyone want her number? Pretty convincing stuff. Like I said, I was more looking for people that personally know very well, like family to speak here.. One sided? Sure because I didn't want this to become what you've made it. GG. You've been asked nicely to remove your infalmitory statement.. I can start putting words in your mouth and we'll see how far we get. Educate yourselves.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playaa May 26, 2004 Share Playaa Member May 26, 2004 I made this topic so people that had a valid perspective...would speak up um...either rephrase that or reread it for yourself...you just basically said that if someone doesn't agree with you then their perspective isn't valid...and if someone doesn't have those prerequisite qualities you listed..then their perspective is invalid. you can't have debate when you refuse to listen basically. How am I judging anyone? sorry, guess I should have explained...I wasn't saying you were judging...I was saying you were using inflamatory statements yourself while asking me to remove mine... like this: Educate yourselves.. and Like I said, I was more looking for people that personally know very well, like family to speak here.. One sided? Sure because I didn't want this to become what you've made it. Did I post this in "Spirituality"? Since you can't look outside your religion I guess this statement would be true to you. Not everything that is "wrong" is laid out as a sin. And not all "sins" are necessarily seen as "wrong" anymore. Sorry. sorry but I can't think of one person who ISN'T a Christian that would describe homosexuality as "wrong"...maybe "gross" or "sickening" or they might just insult gays...but they don't use the word "wrong"...who knows...maybe I'm wrong as for the "studies" you posted... one of them dweezil already stated that from the study you could infer the opposite of what you're saying...the other says homosexuality isn't a "psychological disturbance" which just means it's not someone being insane... then the last study doesn't provide any proof it only states that some society's have homosexual behaviors as a norm...but that's bad logic...that's like saying that because I drink soda and don't die that soda isn't bad for me...it's drawing a conclusion without proper evidence... and it even goes on to say: The Association lifted its claim that homosexuality is abnormal in 1974, and now maintains that there is no scientific evidence that demonstrates the effectiveness of any therapies that attempt to transform homosexuals into heterosexuals. which is flat out wrong on the "no scientific evidence"...we've seen a very thorough study on these forums (someone posted it in Political forums in the past and I've quoted it in the past) where a homosexual man went through therapy and "developed" heterosexual tendencies in a relatively short amount of time. here's the biggest thing though...again I think that the internet is causing this problem... as a guy...I don't like homosexuality because I think it's disgusting...(I'm not saying homosexuals are disgusting...just the act of homosexuality)...as a Christian...I don't think homosexuality is any worse than me repeatedly lying to my parents as a kid...God sees em both the same and knows the heart. It's just that we don't argue lying on these forums cause that would be a boring topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black May 26, 2004 Share Black Member May 26, 2004 hey dweezl, honeslty it sounds to me liek ur cousin has a lot of self-loathing issues...and i knwo that alot of lame guys go thru that, i know i sure did. dont use his insecurities about himself to justify an arguement like that. his tempatition is no different that someone elses who perfers blondes 2 burrnettes. sounds to me hes still buying into the whole bizz bout how will power and god will turn u straight...but those "turn em' straight" serivices are only good for further suppressing how people feel. it honestly wouldnt surprise me 2 find that people who have gone to those type of serivices have a higher suicide rate than those who havent. and love is not a tempation ne ways. lust, yeah ok...but luving another person, isnt that what the bible is about? and honestly, u dont know crap bout the tempatitions of a lame guy...UR NOT lame!!!!!! dont make assumptions aobut how people feel without being in their shoes... i jsut hope 2 god that ur cousin doesnt put a bullet thru his brain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwEEziL May 26, 2004 Share dwEEziL Member May 26, 2004 his tempatition is no different that someone elses who perfers blondes 2 burrnettes.......and honestly, u dont know crap bout the tempatitions of a lame guy...UR NOT lame!!!!!! Make up your mind buddy. My cousin is doing fine, thanks. I have my own views on what brings about homosexual tendencies, and in my studies and aquaintanceship with my lame friends, so far they are supported. But you know. I haven't come in here berating anybody so if you want to discuss it Black, just settle yo'self down. Otherwise, I got no use for this discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PDO May 27, 2004 Share Guest PDO Guests May 27, 2004 Hmm, why don't you take another uncalled for jab while your at it there PDO. Not all religious people are as ignorant as you think. Sounds to me like your comment is born out of ignorance too. I'm not going to get sucked into a huge religion debate, as I'd probally end up getting banned due to some of my views; however, I'm definetly NOT ignorant when it comes to religion (atleast Roman Catholic). Due to my grandparents/sort of my parents I've gone to a RC school my entire life, where I learned a lot about religion, had a lot explained to me, and just plain didn't agree with most of it for various reasons. Obviously all religous people aren't ignorant, but IMO a LOT are, hence why I will put in comments like that. I know some religous people I have a lot of respect for, and can understand why they believe in what they do, however there are a lot of parts of religion I just can't respect, which, if you really care to know I will discuss in a PM. If I offended you with that comment, I'm sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playaa May 27, 2004 Share Playaa Member May 27, 2004 um...without being overly offensive to anyone... PDO...I recommend you study other religions besides Roman Catholicism before you judge every religion...there aren't too many religions in the world where the old celebite preists play with little boys... now I'm NOT saying that all Catholics are hypocrites...but there is alot of hypocrasy inside the Catholic church (just like in the Christian church) basically...don't judge the religion nor the God by the humans who screw up his commands Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower May 28, 2004 Author Share Watchtower Member May 28, 2004 sorry but I can't think of one person who ISN'T a Christian that would describe homosexuality as "wrong"...maybe "gross" or "sickening" or they might just insult gays...but they don't use the word "wrong"...who knows...maybe I'm wrong Ask Goot or any other "Christian" about Lesbianism.. How "gross" do they think that is? I understand what you're saying but.. So you at least know One.. I'll agree you take a pretty liberal stance on your religous beliefs compare to most.. On some issues. You site your "1 homosexual studied" that was "taught to have hetereo tendencies".. I'll site my moms friend she grew up with.. He tried(as well as Many others) to curb their desires and "be straight".. But they Can't! Who would want to Choose to be a homosexual given all the negative connotations that go with it?!!??!!? THink about that. How could you want that unless it was so engrained in you you just can't help it. I can't even Imagine "choosing to be lame". Ridicule, disrimination, shunning, and possibly even death? Let alone 30 years ago when it was "alot worse" for them and the pressures to be "straight" were so much more prevalent. Today it's much easier to be lame, I'll give you that, but still... On a different note, you know MTV is launching the first TV station aimed at gays and lesbians right? Oh the outrage. They gonna "turn all our kids lame"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower May 28, 2004 Author Share Watchtower Member May 28, 2004 then the last study doesn't provide any proof it only states that some society's have homosexual behaviors as a norm...but that's bad logic...that's like saying that because I drink soda and don't die that soda isn't bad for me...it's drawing a conclusion without proper evidence... To me it says that the act is "natural" and instead of damning and trying to "fix" it, they accept it and make allowances accordingly.. The mental illness one doesn't prove the congenital aspect of homosexuality, but I guess shows our lack of understanding and how out attitude has changed on it in a short amount of time. Bad example for what I'm trying to say, but valid in it's own right. And the first study simply says that if you have effeminate traits when young, as a male you have a good chance at being "homosexual" when you get older. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwEEziL May 28, 2004 Share dwEEziL Member May 28, 2004 And the first study simply says that if you have effeminate traits when young, as a male you have a good chance at being "homosexual" when you get older. No, the first study said that because the male children played with girls toys, they were called sissys. Maybe THAT was why they had a good chance of being homosexual when they got older. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black May 28, 2004 Share Black Member May 28, 2004 then how do u explain lame guys who never played with dolls or crap like that. i was a wide receiever on football teams since i was like 9, and i boxed for a long time, all my life i have played sports, i never played with dolls or ne of that...i was never called a sissy when i was little, like i said before, i def. have slept with more than my fair share of chicks, which is why when i came out people were completely surpised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwEEziL May 28, 2004 Share dwEEziL Member May 28, 2004 Well, for me to even try to explain it, I would need to know a bit more about your home life an up bringing. But forums aren't the place to psychoanalyze someone even were I to try, which I am not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmartPartz May 30, 2004 Share SmartPartz Member May 30, 2004 i think it is ow you were brought up i dont tihkn oyu can just inherit being a homosexual Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower May 31, 2004 Author Share Watchtower Member May 31, 2004 Did your parents form everything about you while growing up? What do you think would have to happen for you to end up a homosexual? Anyone can answer that.. What kind of "social stimulii" could have that affect on say a 10 year old.. Before you're even thinking about sex and stuff.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwEEziL May 31, 2004 Share dwEEziL Member May 31, 2004 Well for one, and I think it is a major thing, is how the child is shown, or not shown, love. Whether the child comes from a physically abusive family or an emotionally absent father, often, the search for "love, any kind whether healthy or not, starts at home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower May 31, 2004 Author Share Watchtower Member May 31, 2004 Everything like this I've ever heard leads to abusive relationships later in life not homosexuality.. Any links? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower June 1, 2004 Author Share Watchtower Member June 1, 2004 B.T.W, this is that this topic is about.. Sharing your views on the beginnings of homosexuality and why you think that.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PDO June 2, 2004 Share Guest PDO Guests June 2, 2004 B.T.W, this is that this topic is about.. Sharing your views on the beginnings of homosexuality and why you think that.. Er, this is that this? There's one or two typos in there that made that really confusing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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