Watchtower May 8, 2004 Share Watchtower Member May 8, 2004 Is homosexuality strictly a "choice" and inheritantly wrong. If yes, I would like you to cite a reason you might think they would want to choose that type of lifestyle. Not a flaming match, or debate. Just nice simple answers please Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Kill3r May 8, 2004 Share All Kill3r Member May 8, 2004 no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower May 8, 2004 Author Share Watchtower Member May 8, 2004 I guess noone wants to weigh in.. Maybe if we could post anonymously.. Maybe a poll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwEEziL May 9, 2004 Share dwEEziL Member May 9, 2004 No, I think the problem here is that you are only making one side justify their opinion while just accepting the other side without reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower May 9, 2004 Author Share Watchtower Member May 9, 2004 Well you could easily justify both sides if you felt like it.. If you feel it is predetermined, you probably have some pretty concrete reasons why.. So yeah, explain boths sides if you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linch May 10, 2004 Share linch Member May 10, 2004 I believe homosexuality is not something your born with, but something you do develope at a young age. If I recall correctly from a documentary I saw a while back. Children around the age of 5 (give or take a year or two) unconsciously observe the type of person they like. Meaning appearance, personality, etc. If I recall correctly, their a previous post that put up for a vote on if it was a sin or not. I was very surprised that it was so high for the "Is a sin". I'm sure a lot of people vote it is because of lack of understanding or dont have someone close to themselfs who is lame. Funny how many people believe it is a sin untill on of their own children comes out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playaa May 10, 2004 Share Playaa Member May 10, 2004 linch, I think you are putting a harsher definition on sin than most of those who believe homosexuality is a sin did... in reality a sin is a bad bad thing in God's eyes... however in a humans eyes...I sin...I feel homosexuality is a sin...I feel that God looks at my sin and it is just as bad as any other sin... humans are the ones who put different degrees of "sin" into place...we view murder as worse than theivery...God looks at them both and gets tinkled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Slayer May 11, 2004 Share Shadow Slayer Member May 11, 2004 i tottaly agree with playya there... the Bible says that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" so i cant feel like im any better then a homosexual. now personnaly i think its quite disgusting and wrong but according to the Bible its a sin just like me lying about something little when it really wouldnt hurt anyone. the Bible says we should love the sinner and hate the sin. and more christioans need to start looking at it thru Gods eyes and see that the seemingly little stuff that they do everyday is sin just like homosextuality or murder or anything else.... now we could go into the whole "sadam and gamorrah" thing but somone could read the same verses as me and say they mean a tottaly diferent thing... but what it says is... (im not sure if i will get these quotes exactly right cause i dont have my bible right here) but it says that .... they commited wickedness the men with the men and the women with the women doing that which is unnatural.... it also says that then men of the city told Lot to let the two men come out of his house that they may know them... and lot told them to not do this evil unot them.. again im paraphrasing cause i dont have my bible but thats what it says if you care to look it up... ill look it up and post the correct quotes on here later...... but what that says to me is that these two cities were full of sodomites... homosexuals. and God said it was a wicked city and burned it with fire and brimstone. i think its pretty clear from the scriptures that homosexuality is a sin. thats why it think it is. not beause i heard somone else say it but because i read it in the bible and i belive that the bible is the word of God whos all powerful and all knowing so who am i to argue with what he wrote. ps i am not trying to be offensive with this post just saying what i belive based on the Bible S.S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower May 11, 2004 Author Share Watchtower Member May 11, 2004 I understand that you were taught to think that way Shadow.. Look at what Other Christians get from that same story.. Just some small quips.. I encourage all to read the whole thing.. Homosexuality can not be called one of the sins of Sodom, Gomorrah or Gilbeah since it is not in any of the lists of their sins given in the O.T. Ezekiel 16:48-50 lists the specific sins of Sodom as pride, plenty, laziness, uncaring for needy, haughty and worshipping idols - which was an abomination - not homosexuality. This concept was also taught by Philo to Platonist Jews. Any use of human sexuality, potential or actual, which did not produce legitimate offspring violated "nature": all moral issues were subordinate to the primary duty of males to procreate. Celibacy was as unnatural as was homosexuality. Failure to divorce a barren wife was also "unnatural" as was masturbation. Unfortunately Church tradition of today has bought into these twisting of scripture and ignores true biblical research to find the truths of scripture. But many Christians and ministers just think they know it all and many are totally unaware of the background of some of their false teachings. This is the true abomination...all the hurt caused by the lies and false teaching instead of loving people just as God created them, regardless of their natural sexual orientation. It is very clear there is no choice in sexual orientation and the terrible hurt and failure of the "change-em" ministries is full of evidence how impossible and harmful trying to change ones God given sexual orientation can be. But ignorance prevails and the lies continues which all Christians should be ashamed of and speak out against. Tough words.. I don't see anything wrong with their message.. Love one and all regardless.. Which Shadow alluded to.. Jesus = Love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Slayer May 12, 2004 Share Shadow Slayer Member May 12, 2004 hey what do you say to this.... romans 1:24-32..... i will just post high lights.... 24. "Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleaness, through the lust of there own hearts, to dishonor themselves among themselves. 26. "for this cause GOD gave them up unto VILE AFFECTIONS: for even there women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27. "and licke wise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in there lust one toward another, MEN WITH MEN WORKING THAT WHICH IS UNSEEMLY, AND RECEIVING IN THEMSELVES THAT RECOMPENSE OF THERE ERROR WHICH WAS MEET. 28. " And even as they did not retain GOD in there knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 " being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murder, debate,............................... 30. .................... 31. " without understanding, covenat breakers , WITHOUT NATURAL AFFECTIONS, implaccable, unmerciful: 32 . WHO, KNOWING THE JUDGMENT OF GOD, THAT THEY WHICH COMMIT SUCH THINGS ARE WORTHY OF DEATH, NOT ONLY DO THE SAME, BUT HAVE PLEASURE IN THEM THAT DO THEM. i think its pretty plain from these passages that God has a problem with homosexuality and i dont see how you can get around it ... he spells it out... "doing that which is unnatural"... "men with men" women with women" "to dishonor there own bodies between themselves" and i dont really care what other "christians" say to try to get around it i go by what the bible says and the bible makes it pretty plain. but you are going to belive what you want to belive and somone who dosnt want to belive what the bible says will alwayz find a way to get around it by "wresting (or twisting) the scriptures" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower May 21, 2004 Author Share Watchtower Member May 21, 2004 I didn't ask if you thought it was a sin or not. I asked if you thought it was possible to be born predisposed to that condition or if it is Always a learned trait. Or choice in other words.. So if you know someone that has been "different" all their lives, you'll go with the "not a choice".. If you don't, you're gonna say it's a choice, and a very bad one at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PDO May 22, 2004 Share Guest PDO Guests May 22, 2004 You're not born with it. You're not born with ANYTHING related to personality, however at a young age your environment will effect this types of things, much like linch said by the time you're 5 most of it your brain has stored w/o you knowing it at the said time. BTW, I'm lovin' all the people that are saying it's a sin, cause that makes sense. It's not a choice, think of it this way; do you choose if you like blondes or brunettes, what about cup size? Facial features? No you don't? So who'd think it'd be the same with sexual preferenc? WHAT A CONCEPT! It's not something you consciously change, it's just how things are. You can also change with time. 2 years ago I really liked blondes, now I'm more into brunettes; same thing happens w/ sex pref. But hey, I guess if you do something that is 100% out of your control you're a sinner. I see the sense in that, I really do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playaa May 22, 2004 Share Playaa Member May 22, 2004 I didn't ask if you thought it was a sin or not. yeah you did...in the first part of your post. PDO...I find it odd that you have just disproven science with your "blonde and brunette" reasoning...it's astounding actually... no one has proven whether homosexuality is a choice or not...I have seen studies that point both ways...I have seen real life situations that point both ways...I believe in God and (even though Watch doesn't agree) he says homosexuality is wrong...and since no one's proven it either way...I think I'll trust the guy who made the whole world. and actually...you're wrong about not "choosing" preferences in the other sex...I firmly believe that we make "subconcious decisions" that aren't something where we sit down and make that choice but it's more like we want something so we convince ourselves of it (say I like a girl who's blonde but I currently "like brunettes"...I'm going to subconciously convince myself that I like blondes more)...I think it's the same way with homosexuality...a "subconcious decision" based upon influences. oh and I also hafta disagree with you on the personality thing...DNA affects our personalities as much as our upbringing...DNA is in us before we're born...so we are born with things related to personality. take me for instance. I am a quiet laid back guy...my sister is loud and can be obnoxious...we were both like that from the day we were born according to my parents (my parents used to put a half teaspoon of wine in my sisters milk to get her to go to sleep)...my sister came out of my mom screaming her head off....I came out and didn't cry at all... children have distinct personalities from the day they're born even though they've never had outside influences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower May 23, 2004 Author Share Watchtower Member May 23, 2004 PLayaa, show me where I said anything about "sin"? I'm not seeing it. I'm asking if it's a decision that someone makes. Because I can't believe that "the maker of the whole world" would born someone into a state which damns them for eternity. Think about that for a second.. It's not something you consciously change, it's just how things are. So PDO agrees it's not a choice.. Ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black May 23, 2004 Share Black Member May 23, 2004 (edited) well, i thought i would post something here, because i am lame. wether or not i was born lame or it was learned i personally can not say, i was way to young to remeber. All i know is that sicne i was like 5 being with a guy felt good and normal and natural for me. I have slept with my fair share of chicks and it doesnt have the same effects emotionally for me with being with a guy. to me, being with a guy wasnt "lame" it was just how things were. i didnt even know what being "lame" was until like junior highschool. it was never talked about, never discussed and coming from a military family who is also southern baptist it was def. not encouraged. so explain to me how being lame was learned if i didnt know what it was until after i had been with a guy? i knew i had the feelings before the action...but if it wasnt gentic or predisposed how come i felt them before realizing what they were? People ask me all the time "so when did you become lame?" and i always ansewer the same way...i never "became" lame...i just never realized i was lame. as for sodem and gamora, i know alot of relgious peeps who say that is was the sleeping around and having multiple partners that cause their destruction, not the fact that they were lame. now this brings up a question in my mind here...why do alot of gays sleep around more than straight people? i mean there is that whole sterotype that lame guys are whores and sleep around hince AIDS and all that crap. but whos fualt is that?????? i blame breeders for it honesty (a breeder is a straight person-its lame lingo) looking at my own life, i know that before i was comfortable enough to admit i was lame any chance i had to be with a guy i made the most of it. lame guys and lame feeling are CLEARLY not accepted in society espically by males. for me, i had slept with a guy before ever kissing one...why is this? because for one thing if ne one found out i was lame i would have been beaten, disowned or possibly killed. One of my friends dad strangled his own son and then ran him over twice with his car when he came out. for me, being the only lame guy at a military baording school, i know that people litterally wanted me dead. since i came out, i have been in more fights and have had so many people try and stab or beat me with something i ahve lost count. Now when you live in a enviroment in which being lame is not encourage, what are you going to do when you have a chance to be with another guy? when a guys roomie is at class and u have only 30 mins before he comes back are u honestly going to sit there and do the normal dating rituals that straight people enjoy? you knwo the whole first kiss and holding hands and enjoying each others company? heck no, espeaically if your a horny highschooler your goin to hop straight into the sack caz you may never get another oppurtunity like this one for years. if being lame wasnt looked at as being sucha bad thing, then maybe lame guys wouldnt feel the need to sleep with the first guy they have a chance to. when you know that no matter where you go and no matter what you do in life people will hate just because you are lame it takes alot of courage just to be able to hold hands in public. being lame is living in constant fear and uncertaining, espically for those who are still in the closet. even someone like me who is out still has to worry about people seeing me or people finding out. i knwo that some people (mostly guys) that when i first meet we are good friends but then the seocnd they find out im lame they avoid me like the plague. this brings up another issue....why are most lame guys femine? 2 reasons...1 because the ones that act stright are normally not out. and 2 because straight guys force them 2 be femine. for example, everyone knows that straight guys are increbible homophobic escpially in highschool. so lets say a lame guys comes out of the closet and gets rejected by his friends...now assuming that he doesnt kill himself (and alot of lame guys do, or atlesat attempt to) who is he goin to turn 2 for friends? the answer is other lame guys and girls. lame guys relate to girls because the simple both like the penis and stuff. and when you hang out with someone you take on parts of their personality. have you ever caught urself saying a phrase that ur best friend uses ALL THE TIME...everyone has. you are who ur friends are and when the only people that will accept you are girls, well naturally their attitudes,actions and personalities will rub off on you. i c it all the time, the lame guys with alot of straight guy friends act straight, the ones with alot of girl frineds act fem. jsut because a guy is lame doesnt mean he does NOT liek football or red-meat or w/e. i knwo i sure has heck do... Edited May 23, 2004 by Black Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Kill3r May 23, 2004 Share All Kill3r Member May 23, 2004 nice post Black I am straight but have been/still go to a lame/lesbian club. I have more fun there then any other 'straight' club in town. Personality does rub off and some staight guys are fem also. Theres nothing wrong with this or being lame in my opinion but their will always be the old fashioned and haters in the world. Kinda like racism and discrimination, things are getitng better but theres still a long ways to go. Same with the 'general public' dealing with gays. Not once has a lame guy hit on me knowing that i was straight, the few times it has happened was simply a mistake because they didn't know and quickly appoligized when my reply is simply to tell them im straight. everyone knows that straight guys are increbible homophobic I think that statement is a bit unfair to me Black. Im not the least bit homophobic as ive said i hang out with and party with gays, they are simply more fun because of their open minded attitudes. I agree though that gays shouldnt be stereo-typed and nit-picked about certain issues because they simply are not true in most cases. if being lame wasnt looked at as being sucha bad thing, then maybe lame guys wouldnt feel the need to sleep with the first guy they have a chance to /agree. gays are so quick to be condemned and ridiculed that they have to be quick about bussiness. Not only do they risk others knowing/finding out but going to jail for sodomy or worse. I'm sure that having a lame relationship would be a very hard thing to maintain in the open with the masses being 'southern baptist' Sorry if i missed it but are you religious if you dont mind me askin ? peace, take care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PDO May 23, 2004 Share Guest PDO Guests May 23, 2004 Just thought I'd add... Being a LOT of lame people say it just "happened" without a choice... how is it fair/logical for that to be a sin? That'd be like saying all Blonde haired people go to hell, as do all green eyed people. I guess logic should mean nothing when talking about religion though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwEEziL May 24, 2004 Share dwEEziL Member May 24, 2004 Hmm, why don't you take another uncalled for jab while your at it there PDO. Not all religious people are as ignorant as you think. Sounds to me like your comment is born out of ignorance too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Kill3r May 24, 2004 Share All Kill3r Member May 24, 2004 (edited) Amendment 1 Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion religion means nothing when it comes to this issue, or shouldnt... Amendment 14 nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. Lawrence v. Texas Supreme Court case. Romers v. Evans Supreme Court case. Bowers v. Hardwick Supreme Court case. Things will change eventually. Consentual lame sex in private is already allowed as i understand....only a matter of time before the minority gays are allowed to enjoy the same rights as non-gays. Sooner then later i hope. As for the religous part PDO, i understand what your say God wouldnt have people born into hell and being lame is obvioulsly not something that one day you just decide to do. Its something thats with you and you dont know, as Black has said about himself from his younger days. Its not a concious choice... you dont have a choice, it happens. Im sure lame people dont wish to be not lame but you have to realize they didnt choose to be lame so they could be ridiculed and mocked by people, who would choose a life like that -sp- Edited May 24, 2004 by All Kill3r Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Kill3r May 24, 2004 Share All Kill3r Member May 24, 2004 Hmm, why don't you take another uncalled for jab while your at it there PDO. Not all religious people are as ignorant as you think. Sounds to me like your comment is born out of ignorance too. heh why dont you explain you side of the story then ? your 2 posts in this thread dont add anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black May 24, 2004 Share Black Member May 24, 2004 lol sry if i judged straight guys there, i guess i sterotype people as well...and as for my religon...i dont know honestly...for me religion has caused nothing but pain and i cant see myself ever turning to God or a god for help. i dont think many lame guys feel that teh could turn 2 god even if they wanted to. for me its been engrained into my head that god hates gays and/or the way we live and even if we do beat the odds and dont sleep around, and dont get HIV or dont kill ourselves and actualyl do find one person 2 spend our lives with, taht god will hates us for loving one another. it seems that even the most moral lame guys are already sentenced to hell...so y not give god the finger? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Kill3r May 24, 2004 Share All Kill3r Member May 24, 2004 eheh, i understand where your coming from. Im not into religion much myself but i have studied a lot of different religions. The one single most important thing that i took the Christianity and the Bible is to love. Nothing else really matters, its just trivial small stuff that is forgiven. Love one another and all will be well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwEEziL May 24, 2004 Share dwEEziL Member May 24, 2004 Hmm, why don't you take another uncalled for jab while your at it there PDO. Not all religious people are as ignorant as you think. Sounds to me like your comment is born out of ignorance too. heh why dont you explain you side of the story then ? your 2 posts in this thread dont add anything. I already said why I won't. The start of this thread came with an obvious bias. If you don't agree with Watch, he wants you to explain yourself. That's fine...I just won't play. I believe what I believe based on what I have learned from throughout my life. I don't judge anyone, but that is what I believe. I have, in other forums, tried to explain why I believe this but it hasn't done any good. Sometimes debating is more like arguing, in that no one is gonna change their minds. Their desire is either to 1) best the other and win the "trophey" or 2) they are certain they are right and they only desire to enlighten the other. One is a noble cause, the other is not. Even when the intentions are noble, you have to have an open mind or your "crusade" might cause you to miss Truth. Times like these is when I simply just choose not to play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playaa May 25, 2004 Share Playaa Member May 25, 2004 dang black...hit "enter" much? here's the problem I have with some logic in this topic (and dweez is right, it is born out of ignorance) 1) God made me a lustful male...I don't choose to look at women and lust after them, nor do I choose to have the thoughts towards them that I do...and yet God says that's just as wrong as homosexuality. 2) sins don't make a man go to hell...rejecting Jesus Christ is what gets a man in hell... 3) I've said it before and I'll say it again...a sin is a sin to God...no bigger ones, no smaller ones...so don't think that when I say homosexuality is wrong that I'm going on a rampage against homosexuals...in fact I'm positive I know some homosexuals who God is happier with than he is with me sometimes... 4) dweez is right about the bias...this is not a debate topic...it's a "hey you crazy hateful Christians, defend yourself" topic... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwEEziL May 25, 2004 Share dwEEziL Member May 25, 2004 One correction to Playaa's post. #1 God did NOT make us lustful people. He made us able to express our love strongly. It was the Sin of Adam that threw us into the fall and has allowed for the corruption/perversion of those things that God intended for good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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