Engaged Encounter + Natural Family Planning Sessions

[Unclean]

So as some of you know, I got engaged last December. My fiance wants to get married at her church from her hometown/childhood, and that's totally cool by me. She's Catholic, I'm agnostic. Also cool. Neither one of us has tried to "convert" the other... we respect eachothers' beliefs.

 

So we met with the priest a few weeks ago. He was ordained about 3 months ago, and that doesn't really put Lady Unclean at ease. She noted that we're 5+ years older than he is, and he doesn't have a counseling degree. Lady Unclean, on the other hand, has had a significant amount of premarital/marital coursework at the undergrad and grad level. I could tell he was a little green when he asked me to clarify what "agnostic" meant, and then followed up by asking what agnostic church I go to (in a non-joking way).

 

Then we find out about two meetings that we have to go to: A Natural Family Planning meeting (this Friday (9/12) for 3 hours) and an overnight retreat (called "Engaged Encounter"). For the NFP meeting, they sent us a CD that we had to listen to, and a test to follow along with. I completely disagree with the message on that CD, and I keep hearing whoppers that make my jaw drop (morality has declined since the introduction of modern contraceptives, "so they must be related", the pill was marketed as a tool for feminists to get jobs, etc).

 

The engaged encounter email is posted below.

 

Questions:

 

1. We both feel that we'd get more "benefit" from a more experienced priest. Is there any way to get one without offending any of the church clergy?

2. What should we expect from this Natural Family Planning meeting? Are we just there to listen to someone talk, or are we supposed to sign something we don't agree with in order to get married at her church?

3. Is "Engaged Encounter" more of a focus on marriage or the church?

4. Have any of you gone through an interfaith marriage, or know someone that has? What are some things to look out for?

 

Congratulations [Lady Unclean] & [unclean]

 

Preparing for your wedding day and a lifetime of marriage can be such an exciting time. We commend you for realizing the seriousness of what you are about to undertake by signing up for the October 10-11, 2008 Engaged Encounter Weekend. This weekend will allow you the opportunity to spend a great deal of focused time together, away from the distractions of the world; time where you will be able to talk with and listen to one another; time for you to reflect on who you are as individuals and who you will become as a married couple.

 

This is a working weekend, as it is meant to prepare you for the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony – to learn about the gift from God that you are to one another. It is also a time to learn how to maintain that gift and appreciate the Giver. It is a long weekend and it will be trying at times, just as your marriage is trying. Our goal is to help you build a stronger foundation for your marriage, and part of that is to encourage you to share deeply; to try harder; to persevere. Statistics show that 50% of marriages end in civil divorce. Your commitment to this time of preparation is critical.

 

Some details for the weekend: dress casually. Bring any personal items you need, as well as towels, soap, pillows, sleeping bags or bedding for a twin bed and alarm clock. NOTE: You will most likely share your sleeping room with others of the same sex. This keeps the cost of the weekend more affordable. We also ask that each of you bring a snack for the “community†snack table. To have a balance of snacks, one of you please bring 1 bag of cookies and the other bring 1 bunch of bananas.

 

Please arrive between 7:30 PM and 7:45 PM so we can start promptly at 8:00 PM. We will finish on Saturday around 10:00 PM. The Engaged Encounter will be held at Bishop Lane Retreat Center, 7708 E. McGregor Road in Rockford, Illinois map to Bishop Lane. NOTE: A peaceful, distraction free environment is maintained at the Retreat Center. No alcohol or drugs are allowed on the premises.

 

We have received your $145 deposit toward your payment for the weekend (NOTE: a $45 deposit is required for reservations. This is non-refundable, but transferable deposit). The balance of $ 0 is due on Friday evening of your Engaged Encounter. If for ANY reason you find you will NOT be able to attend this weekend, please let us know right away, as we often have a waiting list.

 

If either of your names are misspelled above please let us know immediately. If you have any questions, please contact the Office of Family Life/Bishop Lane Retreat Center at (815) 965-5011. Otherwise our prayers are with you and we will see you at your Engaged Encounter!

 

We pray for God’s Blessings during this special time your lives!

 

Peace in Christ,

 

Don & Lorrie Gramer

[wayfarer]

I don't remember completely about this, but I believe the concept behind this councelling is to bring the non-Catholic into

the church. Both of my brother-in-laws had to get baptized in order to marry my sisters in our (at that time) Catholic church,

if I remember corectly. Don't quote me on this Unclean, things may have changed, or maybe the Cathlolic clergy does things

differently in your area. But, they're standpoint will be that they are not just marrying someone in the church, but rather they

are marrying someone INTO the congregation. No offense Unclean but two people having such completely different points of

veiw might have serious complications much later in life, despite how commited the two of you are right now to tolerate each

others point of view. I'm not trying to cause a fight here. I'm sure that you will have to do things that, given your values, would

seem ludicrus. Neither of my two brothers-in-law have, nor intend to, attend church since they were baptized, so I guess that might

come down to how much your willing to swallow in order to get married in that church. Like I said don't quote me on this, but I

would certainly be asking the question at your next meeting if your marraige there requires you to get baptized, because I'm

pretty sure it's a requirement for any marriage in a Catholic church.

[Preacher]

Well if she is a "devout" Catholic then it's going to jump out at you and be a problem. It may not happen right away but I guarantee it will if and when you have kids. The reason this will happen is simple, she will want to see her kids in heaven. The Bible warns against interfaith unions because it will be like two horses pulling a cart but not wanting to go the same direction. I've counseled a few couples from different denominations ,so they had the same faith just different flavors, and even that was a huge obstacle to get over (one didn't end up getting married over the issue). The other issue that will pop up is her attempting to get you "saved". First off don't be offended by this, because unlike most arguments, this one is almost always done in love and isn't selfish. It is also a mandate of almost every church to tell others about their beliefs.

 

As far as what to expect at these meetings, I would expect to be very uncomfortable. This is because they are coming from a world foreign to you. If, however, you are intent on going through with the marriage go and listen very close. Do not make remarks about how stupid it is, how pointless it is or anything disparaging toward her church. Listen to what is said, how things are done and make note of it all. Use the term "interesting" when you describe it later. Money is the only other issue that I know of that can cause a relationship to die faster than an argument over faith. If you hit her faith with even small cutting remarks she will be hurt by it. People take their faith much more seriously than almost anything else. This is why when someone makes a rude remark, on one of the boards concerning faith, there is always a ton of people who jump in to bash him/her.

 

That's a start anyway. Hope it helps.

[Unclean]

Thanks for the replies guys. Yeah, this is such a foreign concept to me, I'm not really sure how to approach it. Hearing your perspectives are a BIG help.

 

@wayfarer - the priest did ask if I was baptized. I was dedicated, but not baptized.

You also mentioned "But, they're standpoint will be that they are not just marrying someone in the church, but rather they are marrying someone INTO the congregation." This isn't something that I thought of before... the priest never mentioned any requirement of me joining the church. I'll have to ask about that and the baptismal thing.

 

Re: problems down the road, I've already talked to my fiance about some potential issues (like how to raise the children). I'm ok with raising them as Catholics (the priest said that's a requirement), but once they are old enough (~16-18), I'd like for them to make the decision on their own whether Catholicism is right for them. And whatever they choose, I'll be fine with as long as they have a darn good reason for doing so. I'm ok with faith, but not blind/ignorant faith.

 

@Preacher - I believe that we're both pretty flexible right now with our religious views. But neither one of us pushes our beliefs on the other. Given our own unique relationship, I think I would be a bit offended if she tried to "save" me, regardless of her intentions. That concept always seemed quite condescending to me, like me trying to "save" her from organized religion should be condescending to her.

 

For being uncomfortable at the meeting - that's not the answer I wanted to hear. I think you nailed it though, I'm really worried about scoffing at parts or in some other way not approaching it with an open mind. She knows that I'm always mindful of being as respectful as possible -- especially related to religion -- but sometimes it's REALLY hard to not say something when I hear a logical fallacy.

 

Oh, one last thing... I really, really hope they don't ask me to sign anything I don't believe. I DO NOT want to start this marriage off with lies to the church.

[mookie]

once they are old enough (~16-18), I'd like for them to make the decision on their own whether Catholicism is right for them.

That's called Confirmation; it's standard. Around tenth or eleventh grade, kids are expected to either confirm that they are Catholics, or not.

[Unclean]

once they are old enough (~16-18), I'd like for them to make the decision on their own whether Catholicism is right for them.

That's called Confirmation; it's standard. Around tenth or eleventh grade, kids are expected to either confirm that they are Catholics, or not.

Do they have to justify their beliefs for confirmation?

[mookie]

once they are old enough (~16-18), I'd like for them to make the decision on their own whether Catholicism is right for them.

That's called Confirmation; it's standard. Around tenth or eleventh grade, kids are expected to either confirm that they are Catholics, or not.

Do they have to justify their beliefs for confirmation?

No, they pretty much just have to go to classes for a while and then show up.

 

Also, you should be able to get a dispensation from the bishop to get married, rather than being baptized.

[mookie]

2. What should we expect from this Natural Family Planning meeting? Are we just there to listen to someone talk, or are we supposed to sign something we don't agree with in order to get married at her church?

BTW, this is probably just going to be a class where they teach you both to figure out when Lady Unclean is fertile. I think this is commonly known as the "calendar method" but I could be wrong on that. If you were uncomfortable with sex-ed, you should probably plan on being uncomfortable for three hours. As a Catholic I'd say that I don't see much difference between this and using a condom. If you feel like being an asshat, you could ask how it is that using a condom is fornication, but having sex while intending not to get pregnant isn't.

[Unclean]

2. What should we expect from this Natural Family Planning meeting? Are we just there to listen to someone talk, or are we supposed to sign something we don't agree with in order to get married at her church?

BTW, this is probably just going to be a class where they teach you both to figure out when Lady Unclean is fertile. I think this is commonly known as the "calendar method" but I could be wrong on that. If you were uncomfortable with sex-ed, you should probably plan on being uncomfortable for three hours. As a Catholic I'd say that I don't see much difference between this and using a condom. If you feel like being an asshat, you could ask how it is that using a condom is fornication, but having sex while intending not to get pregnant isn't.

Heh, never quite thought of it that way. Don't really feel like getting kicked out of that class though.

 

Although I did have to point one thing out to Lady Unclean about an argument against birth control in the CD they mailed us... the argument was that "morality has decreased after the introduction of contraceptives like the pill and condoms, so they are directly related". Correlation doesn't mean causality... I had to bring up the pirates/global warming analogy.

[stutters]

pirates/global warming. nice

 

is the catholic thing you're doing a "pre-marriage inventory?" my dad (i was raised catholic, they still are heavily) is leaning on me to do it with senorita stutters. i'll probably do it, and i'm definitely walking and finding a new priest if he's 5 years younger than me and thinks that egnahstix is some weird branch of the lutherans.

 

ps - i'd bail out of the engaged encounters, quick. not because of the sex ed, but the fear of hanging out with a bunk of other dudes that are willing to sit through something like that. db alert, high. i'd say do the thing/inventory through the church, and maybe the family planning.

pps - senorita stutters is the daughter of a ucc minister, and i'm eggonahstik. we've been fine (happily together over 5 years), but she's also very open and honest with me. she isn't a strict christian, but she is a person of faith and can very intelligently stand her ground. morally, we agree on most everything. we'll raise our kids with a judeo-christian upbringing, but also be very open and honest with them about each of our views. i don't think any less of her because of her views, and i'd hold no reservation toward a kid of mine that can relate to a religion other than mine (because tolerance is cornerstone of my religion). i don't know you, and i don't know her, but i do think interfaith relationships can work, so long as nobody directly in the relationship is an fundamentalist extremist.

 

glhf

[Unclean]

The "pre-marriage inventory" is another part that we're going through. We took something called the "FOCCUS test", scantron style. The priest will be reviewing the results with us at our next meeting (Oct 4th). We've already talked about most of the subjects in the test, but there are a few that I think will bring out some very interesting conversations. Lady Unclean freaked out a little because she thought I was a little *too* honest with a few of the questions though.

 

It sounds like you two are in the same boat as us... I would think one or both people would have to be pretty strict/hardcore to create serious issues. I dated a fundamentalist Christian once, and we worked surprisingly well together. The long distance was a killer though.

 

It'd be interesting to see some statistics on interfaith marriages, and how successful they are compared to the norm.

[Bewildered]

We were about to do the whole scantron thing, and there was some weekend retreat we had to go to. Then we got into a little argument with the churches mandatory wedding planner, who said we couldn't have this song in our wedding cuz it wasn't on their list of "approved" songs (ELCA Lutheran).

 

http://www.music-lyrics-gospel.com/gospel_..._here_24524.asp

 

And we told em where they could go ... and canceled our reservation on the church ... and booked the basement of the American Legion, and hired a wonderful Methodist minister to marry us. So we got married in the basement of a bar.

 

[Bewildered]

My one bit of advice would be, though, to do what the two of you think is right; and not to let your families pressure you into something you don't want. We did the whole wedding ceremony thing because my wife allowed her parents to tell us what we could or couldn't do. When it was all said and done, we wished we would have just done our own thing -- what we wanted to do was get married on a beach in Hawaii, just the two of us and a Minister. Maybe someday we'll do it all over again -- the right way.

[Unclean]

That must be quite a set of mixed emotions! You're glad to get married, but have regrets about the location.

 

Did your wife's parents pay for part or all of the wedding? How did they have a say in it?

[Bewildered]

That must be quite a set of mixed emotions! You're glad to get married, but have regrets about the location.

 

Did your wife's parents pay for part or all of the wedding? How did they have a say in it?

 

They paid for the venue and the meal. We paid for the liquor and the dj. That didn't really give them a say though. Actually many times during the planning process we wished we wouldn't have let them pay for anything, because then they felt like they could control the guest list. They had a say in it, because I think there is a natural tendency to feel like you have to meet the wishes of your family -- to make them happy -- when really the only ones that need to be happy is the two of you.

[Unclean]

I'm kinda on the fence on that one... if they're paying for it, they have somewhat of a say. But if there's a disagreement, it should always resolve on the side of the bride/groom, not the parents.

 

We're paying for our entire wedding though, so I don't feel a twinge of guilt for any selection we make.

 

p.s. - the Natural Family Planning meeting is tonight!

[Preacher]

so tell us what happened

[mookie]

so tell us what happened

He can't 'cause PTSD.

[Preacher]

Well take a tranq and post it up lol

[Unclean]

Oh man, totally forgot to update this thread. The second paragraph gets a little graphic, so feel free to skip it if you'd like.

 

We showed up at the place, and there were about 40-50 other couples there. An older couple (in their 60's) was teaching the Natural Family Planning class. They opened up with the lord's prayer (I don't know the words), then the next 30 minutes was like CCD. "In any marriage, there are three people. Can YOU guess who the third person is?" People would look around, and one person would hesitantly say "god?" "That's right!"

 

After that was over, the powerpoint presentation began. They showed us a timing method that they said was just as effective at preventing pregnancies. It's kinda like the calendar method, but it also involves taking the temperature of the woman's ladyparts, checking the viscosity of the mucus, etc. Then they click to the next slide, and it's a woman showing a peace sign with a strand of mucus between her fingers. We're all horrified of course, and the guy goes "this is perfectly natural! It's just mucus, people. You blow it out your nose!" He forgot to mention that we typically don't SHOW OTHER PEOPLE what we blew out our nose.

 

And then there was the obligatory "class interrupter" sitting behind us. She'd always raise her hand to make some random point, like when the instructors were talking about abortion, she raises her hand and says "you said 'when the woman has an abortion'. Doesn't the man play a role in that too?" They say "yes, I guess they do too", and she responds "good, I just wanted that clarified." To think -- we almost didn't learn that important fact! Good thing she was there.

 

Overall, I'm glad I went to the meeting though - it's something I don't really experience that often, and it wasn't like nails on a chalkboard either. I don't think it's knowledge that I'll use/practice though, so part of me thinks it's just like "going through a motion" before marriage.

 

The Engaged Encounter retreat is this Friday-Saturday. I'll post the update afterwards if I survive.

[stutters]

i'll be not-praying for you on your encounter this weekend. are you bring your ipod for after curfew? i would. you're going to be bunking with "class interrupters."

 

gl, hf. if possible.