Had an epiphany

[Fenix]

Alrighty, sometimes I get bored and read the banned forums for amusement (some of the excuses are just funny to read). Long story short, I remembered my own ban for rushing even though it was lifted by Tirtul, and realized that situation was a bit odd....and some other situations happen almost all the time. Just an FYI, this is not an attempt to bash any admin or make any accusations, I just wanted to see people's opinions on this topic I'm about to bring up.

 

So I was banned with a group of ppl for rushing. I myself wasn't rushing because I had just joined and got placed into a rusher's avatar. Tirtul understood this and it was ok. But, when I started thinking about it again, I thought to myself, "Why were they banned in the first place?" To give you the visual situation, Tirtul, Montequilla, and a couple others were in the back group, and the "rushers" were in front just around the corner from them. This was on the Deathtoll map The Town, at the end where there's a bus, and through the alley around the corner is the end of the map. Tirtul and Monte (Esspecially Monte) were in the back farming points by killing any infected in the back. Monte has been known to do this all the time, and the other team had already made it through the alley and headed towards the safe room. To get to the guys in front, it would have only taken like 5-10 seconds to run to them, but since Monte was in the back farming points, some others were in the back too. Anyways, this brought up a couple questions...

 

1) How come this was considered rushing when the other 5 ppl in front were not that far away? I've seen many games where the survivor teams are ussually split in two to split up infected attacks and to spawn block...and no one gets banned or kicked. I guess it's a matter of personal opinion?

 

2) Shouldn't holding the team back be just as bad as rushing? Many times there's been 1-3 people in the back farming for points holding the rest of the team back, and even when the team moves forward, they still hide out in the back. I'm not going to give any more names, but even though these people are good at 1-shotting infected, it kinda screws the rest of the team when they are trying to make progress through the map.

 

I'm more of a competitive person, so sometimes I get upset about certain situations. This situation seems to me like it's almost against team cooperation. Just like rushing goes against team cooperation, so does hanging out in the back all the time. Sometimes the entire team is stuck in an area getting destroyed at a bottleneck location because we have 1 or two people in the back "spawn-blocking" the rear...and not moving forward. Shouldn't this issue be addressed as often as rushing? I was looking at the sourcebans and often see people kicked or banned for rushing, but never for holding the team back...yet in order to get those guys in the back to move forward, we often have to move further ahead of them to get the point across to move forward...but then that can be viewed as rushing to some admins.

 

In the situation I was in, even though I wasn't rushing, I wasn't far ahead of the guys in back, like I said it was like 5-10 seconds ahead of them...and that area is horrible for getting charged and spit...so it was better just to move forward than to just hang out in the back. I'm sure some of you may agree that it's better to get out of a certain area than to linger.

 

Anyways, that's my two cents on the issue, and I wanted to see what you guys thought about it.

 

Also, here's a link to a vid of the map where I was talking about. Monte and the others were by the bus, and the others were around the corner in the alley.

[Tirtul]

just as a point fenix, when you see those people in back "farming points" did you possibly think that maybe they are the ones getting singled out and need help. you mention the night where you were banned and since you didn't seem to be seeing that the whole map those people were rushing the whole time while I was in the back trying to save montiquila as he was getting hit left and right by the infected. as for distance you said 5-10 seconds ahead, while I judge rushing a little differently then by time distance how much damage do you think a pounced person will take in 10 seconds... that is just about death. so yes that is way to far.

As for people holding back a team, there are some choke points that infected use to drag back that last person, its a strategy and as such you should go back and help them, if its not a spot where the infected can just smoke a person off a ledge, like the no mercy hospital, then you have to think are they griefing, or new. if its griefing then yes the do get banned I have done so quite a few times but if they are new, then help them out. all running ahead is gonna do is hurt your team it wont help your slower players move ahead faster as you like to think.

[Biggs]

Sorry, but what was the epiphany?

[TheDude]

Rushing is context-sensitive. Distance surely does matter, but not as much as the situation does.

 

you are rushing when you run ahead towards the saferoom with disregard of a part of your team. You're undermining the idea behind the game, which is to make it to the saferoom as a group.

 

A survivor team generally consists of 3 parts:

1. The back makes sure there are no stragglers. This is the hardest place to be because you're constantly being attacked since you're in the back people have to look behind them and actively come back if you get incapped. You tend to start camping fighting the infected. That's when the rest of your team has to point this out to you.

 

2. The middle group acts as support to the 2/3 players in the back and connect the whole group, making sure to give the infected as little places to spawn as possible. They encourage the players in the back to 'move along' and the ones in front to 'wait up'.

 

3. The front group pushes the team forward and makes sure they don't start camping around one spot. They try to take choke points and have to look behind them constantly. The role of these players is often underestimated, as they constantly have to decide what action to take (run away from tank, kill tank here, wait here, move up etc.)

 

This is not 'how the game should be played', but just the the natural order a decent team falls into.

 

Rushing happens when someone in the team breaks his role, says to hell with all of you and just runs off. It all falls apart.

 

There is such a thing as justified rushing. If your team is clearly on the verge of death, and you have a chance to get in some distance of perhaps make a run for the saferoom, you can rush AS LONG AS YOU CONSULT WITH YOUR TEAM FIRST. At least that's how i see it.

 

You have a mic? You say you're gonna rush. If there's protest, you stay put.

Don't have a mic? Type it in team chat. Doesn't have to take long. A "rush?" message pretty much says it all.

Don't have time to type? To quote an old friend of mine. 'it's 2012 - get a mic'. Not having a mic or time to type is not a good excuse to me.

Edited December 9, 2012 by TheDude

[Lookback]

Camping in the back? It doesn't work that way...

[Fenix]

Tirtul, I only brought up our story to give persepctive on what my "epiphany" was. I didn't say if they were truely rushing or not, just that the front group wasn't too far ahead. My point to this was that there are many times where we have 1 or two people in the back just staying put, while the rest of the team will try and move forward. You would think that if the rest of the team was in front of you, that you would catch up with them to avoid being singled out by the infected. But that's why I also brought up how some of the players in back are "good" at head shots, and that they sometimes stay in one spot too long for the rest of the team to wait for that 1 guy...esspecially if the area in front of the team is a choke point they need to pass (and fast!).

 

We all know of some chokepoints in the game that can cause the entire survivor team to die because they lingered in that area too long...and those are the areas we ussually try and get through ASAP.

 

Camping in the back? It doesn't work that way...

 

I think it can if you are really good at headshots. I've spectated lots of people, and have seen some people on the server land headshots like they were nothing. This is why they are in the back, because they know they will get attacked the most. It's a good way to rack up points...but it slows the entire rest of the team down. We also know that moving at a snail's pace through certain maps can be detrimental to our health.

 

So I guess to put an analogy behind it...it's like a minor game of Tug-o-war between the people in back and the ones in front. My epiphany was that maybe ppl farming points in the back slowing the team down is just as bad as rushing...esspecially when a choke-point is in front of them??

 

just as a point fenix, when you see those people in back "farming points" did you possibly think that maybe they are the ones getting singled out and need help

 

Also, no. The reason why? I'm seeing these guys as I play against them, and with them (ussually in spectator mode or when I'm waiting to spawn as infected). They are rarely ever "held back", and the most of the times they are in trouble, is BECAUSE they linger in the back at all times. And I haven't seen them have too much trouble in the back while I'm infected, because when I try and target them, they are just able to headshot me before I can do anything.

 

This type of event does exist, and I"m not asking you guys to say "Ya you're right Fenix, let's ban them ASAP!" I'm just asking you to be observant of this type of behavior. Here's one more analogy for you Anime fans....

 

If you watch Naruto Shippuden, you sometimes see chase scenes where the ninjas are running away, and one stays behind to distract the persuers...only to nearly die. Except in the case I"m talking about, that ninja staying behind is either Kakashi or someone who never gets killed because they have "mad skills". So now the ninja team in front has to wait for them, while possibly getting ambushed themselves.

[TheDude]

If you watch Naruto Shippuden, you sometimes see chase scenes where the ninjas are running away, and one stays behind to distract the persuers...only to nearly die. Except in the case I"m talking about, that ninja staying behind is either Kakashi or someone who never gets killed because they have "mad skills". So now the ninja team in front has to wait for them, while possibly getting ambushed themselves.

 

I think you're confusing staying in the back of the group with staying behind to cover a retreat. This analogy would be correct if it were not possible for the infected to spawn everywhere in the map whenever they choose to.

 

If someone was in fact 'camping' in the back as you see it, that would be considered griefing. You have to see the person in the back as the shepard of the herd, not the lone wolf.

[Lookback]

Without good people handling the back of the group, even the best teams can rest assured that some will not reach the safe room, if the infected team has a clue.

 

I have no idea who Naruto Shippuden or Kakashi are and I bet they don't play L4D2, but I know my chances of making it to the next safe room are a lot better if General, Swatty, Tirtul, SK or Paro (Sorry if I missed anyone here) has the back of the group.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Lookback

[tonerrrr]

I play the back b/c it's more fun that way. I also like sniping all the hunters picking on people incapped or just trying to go for me, they must get mad.

 

Better players must play the back. It is inevitable that they will get more points since the back is attacked more. As far as "farming" points goes... Like I said, I like the challenge and it's more fun, I could care less about points. When people tell me to get moving I do so.

 

I've also been told to start moving after not physically being able to do anything for over a minute: constant charger animation, smoke, charge, smoke... literally not able to shoot once. This especially happens if you're stuck in reload when the infected keep stopping your reload. Can't shoot the smoker after getting charged if you're reloading, etc.

 

The best thing to do in that situation is to just go to the back and help/yell at the people (in a nice way of course). A team looking out for eachother cannot be killed in one spot (even if 1 tank pops up). This is why a lot of finales are boring in a sense.

 

A lot of times on this server people get way too mad about something they may not know about. For instance: If 1 guy is in the back walking around a room, it's very possible he's dancing with a charger rather than just sitting around. Keep this all in mind.

[mavC]

I have to play in the back. No for fun. Is because i have to save all the players that play there. I mean sk, Session, Toner, Malo, Paro, etc. I always have to watch them. One time i saw Toner get boomed, then jockeyd, then smoked, then charged, then a tank incaped him, then 4 pounces in a row. All at the same time. If I had not been there, he would have died.

[Fenix]

I have to play in the back. No for fun. Is because i have to save all the players that play there. I mean sk, Session, Toner, Malo, Paro, etc. I always have to watch them. One time i saw Toner get boomed, then jockeyd, then smoked, then charged, then a tank incaped him, then 4 pounces in a row. All at the same time. If I had not been there, he would have died.

 

Exactly my point though....when people stay in the back, they are liable to get attack constantly, causing people to have to stay behind and help the ones who want to stay in the back...slowing down progression through the map.

[specialk]

Fenix when I see you I'm going to challenge you to stay in the back and I'm just going to watch you and see how you do

[TheDude]

I have to play in the back. No for fun. Is because i have to save all the players that play there. I mean sk, Session, Toner, Malo, Paro, etc. I always have to watch them. One time i saw Toner get boomed, then jockeyd, then smoked, then charged, then a tank incaped him, then 4 pounces in a row. All at the same time. If I had not been there, he would have died.

 

Exactly my point though....when people stay in the back, they are liable to get attack constantly, causing people to have to stay behind and help the ones who want to stay in the back...slowing down progression through the map.

 

But what's the alternative? Have nobody stay in the back? Just all be in the front?

 

if this is a group:

 

- - - - - - -

- - - - - - -

 

explain to me which formation causes nobody to be in the back.

[mavC]

I have to play in the back. No for fun. Is because i have to save all the players that play there. I mean sk, Session, Toner, Malo, Paro, etc. I always have to watch them. One time i saw Toner get boomed, then jockeyd, then smoked, then charged, then a tank incaped him, then 4 pounces in a row. All at the same time. If I had not been there, he would have died.

 

Exactly my point though....when people stay in the back, they are liable to get attack constantly, causing people to have to stay behind and help the ones who want to stay in the back...slowing down progression through the map.

 

 

Well... i thought everyone understood that i was trying to make a joke.

 

When i come to the server, I want to have fun, and as Toner said, the back is funnier than the front. Besides i always try to improve my aim.

 

Anyway, sk, please stay on the front? I'm tired to save your a** every second.

[specialk]

No worries Mavc I'll be on the other team

[chick82]

Now now...Let's play nice.

 

In fairness I will say my 2 cents...

 

Back in the day when Tirtul and I first started playing he was always in the back and I'm like let's go let's go. And he'd get smoked sometimes or in trouble and I'd think man what are you doing. BUT THEN as time passed I realized a few things.

 

1) Most of the team has a let's move forward, keep moving, don't look behind you. Not a bad thing necessarily but when everyone is doing this is can cause havoc.

 

2) As we all know from playing infected what is the NUMBER 1 saying on the team "Attack the back, don't worry about the front." Knowing this should give you a pretty good ideal as to why it's good to have people like SK, Tirtul, Paro, and such in the back killing that unwanted stuff. They may go for they back people but if you have a strong person back there to help get those slower players or new players still learning some breathe room it is nice.

 

3) In a perfect world we could all moved quickly and together BUT like TheDude said even in formation there will always be people in the back. Someone has to go last as someone has to go first. And sometimes we don't think about what that extra moment those in the back killed a few straggler SI can do to help benefit a team.

 

Be grateful for those players who do linger a bit, (do they do it excessive), ehh sometimes, but honestly they help more than you think. Just as you appreciate the person who makes a little bit of a dash forward to block a choke point, appreciate those who help clear the back out from that infamous "Attack the back" mentality.

[Garychios]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVVLsUUWrQY

 

How do you embed this?

[tonerrrr]

https://www.youtube....h?v=DVVLsUUWrQY

 

How do you embed this?

 

http://youtu.be/DVVLsUUWrQY

 

This is how:
[media]http://youtu.be/DVVLsUUWrQY[/media]

[Garychios]

Oh yes.

[Lookback]

Oh yes.

 

Well I knew we would get a real epiphany sooner or later, grats Turbo!

[Fenix]

I completely understand the idea of having 1 or 2 really good players in the back, but I want to get to my original post about rushing. Should it be considered rushing if there are 3-4 ppl in the back, and the rest of the group makes a dash through a choke point (like in the video I showed at that area) so they can spawn block?

 

Also, I took up SK's challenge to stay in back. Worked out decently till he and I got pulled by smokers when everyone dropped into the sewer. I'm not sure what the challenge was for, as I know it's difficult to stay in back. But those that are really good at head shotting sometimes stay in back longer than needed. And TheDude....when I mean "staying in back", I mean there are some ppl who say in back a little bit too long...and then call out any people in the front "rushing".

[TheDude]

And TheDude....when I mean "staying in back", I mean there are some ppl who say in back a little bit too long...and then call out any people in the front "rushing".

 

i understand what you're trying to say, but the answer to ppl lingering in the back to long, is not running forward.

 

As to rushing a choke point: i simply refer to my post above:

you gotta ask your team first.

Edited December 15, 2012 by TheDude

[Garychios]

Oh yes.

 

ROFL.

[Garychios]

Oh yes.

 

Well I knew we would get a real epiphany sooner or later, grats Turbo!

 

Fenix, are you OK? I played with you a couple of days ago and you only played the back. You did not play it good, but you did play the back.