auggybendoggy January 25, 2004 Share auggybendoggy Member January 25, 2004 watch but my thoughts (thoughts not insistence) is that if there is micro life on other planets shouldn't they adapt to their enviroment and then grow into something better. If evolution is true then I would assume micro life on other plantes would be very young. If we say well the conditions don't allow the micro organism to mature then evolution is false (i think) since the MO should have adapted thus allowing it to grow into a much more complex organism??? If we say the MO does indeed adapt to it's enviroment then where are the space men on pluto from over millions of years of adapting and evoloving. Just thoughts, Aug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower January 25, 2004 Author Share Watchtower Member January 25, 2004 Maybe the conditions have to be just right.. Maybe Oxygen is the key? Who knows.. Rule it out if you must. Maybe they've evolved to the point they can cloak themselves.. Maybe they're here.. Maybe the life on earth originated on another planet and dropped in on a meteor.. Hit the ground running.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auggybendoggy January 25, 2004 Share auggybendoggy Member January 25, 2004 haahahahahha cloaked....rofl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwEEziL January 25, 2004 Share dwEEziL Member January 25, 2004 (edited) Damn Klingons! KAHN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Edited January 25, 2004 by dwEEziL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crowbar January 26, 2004 Share Crowbar Member January 26, 2004 the core problem here Watch, is that I can present evidence that I think makes a lot of sense, and you'll find something wrong with it and discount the whole thing as bogus. In the same manner, you can present me with all kinds of facts that in your mind are clear as day, yet I'll find something that I don't believe and rule out the whole thing. We're both doing it, as well as others here. I think what each of us has (I may be wrong, it's just something to think about) is a partially open mind. When we find totally new information, or more information, relating to things we already believe, we soak it up with an "open mind." However, when new information comes along that goes against what we each believe, it's wrong until proven (and really how is any of this going to be proven) right. I must admit, I don't know how either of us can change our reactions without throwing our individual belief system out the window. Perhaps we just need to start reading through each piece of submitted work conciously trying to find something we understand or identify with, and start from there. Not this constantly looking for errors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower January 27, 2004 Author Share Watchtower Member January 27, 2004 I agree Crow, but I have to say that some minds are definitely more open than others.. Now what creationists have to realize is that the processes of evolution does not necessarily rule out any creation theory.. Like for example I'm open to the thought of a possible creator at the beginning throwing a spark in the ooze so to say to get things started.. Who knows.. We can't prove that wrong so we can't say for sure.. And the part about reading objectively is done on a level. What happens tho is a point is made that the reader dosen't agree with. Then other point are made assuming the first is true. That's the problem. I'm glad you realize that issue. I can honestly try to look at most everything with as little bias as possible. Like I said, I don't like to totally discount anything.. I just like stuff I can sink my teeth into.. Things that when you think about you can see how they make sense.. Not read this and just believe casue it's what i said.. And again i have yet to see any evidence that proves creation.. Anything of scientific nature is just saying parts of pieces of an evolutionary theory wrong.. Talk about desperate to hold on to beliefs! The thing about most evolutionist is if you blast one belief they have many more to fall back on.. Creationists have just one. Or should have just one anyhow.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower January 27, 2004 Author Share Watchtower Member January 27, 2004 What we should do is post your proof in another thread.. No debate just the article that you think make the best case ofr your argument.. Just links.. and we'll make other threads for discussion.. *make sure to read above post.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playaa January 27, 2004 Share Playaa Member January 27, 2004 (edited) i have yet to see any evidence that proves creation first off...ever seen how DNA works? I feel like I've said this before... sure it's not a proof that creation is true...there is none when it comes down to it just as there is no evidence for macro evolution, even though you say that micro and macro are the same thing, they're clearly not. There is absolutely no evidence of macro evolution...no evidence of one species turning into another. There is examples that people USE to say macro evolution exists...but there is no scientific fact. Nothing more solid than me saying "look at DNA. It's complexity demonstrates intelligent design." Again...we're back to faith in men. Believing what we choose to believe. *edit* btw: Dr Alan Feduccia, a world authority on birds at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and an evolutionist himself, says: ‘Paleontologists have tried to turn Archaeopteryx into an earth-bound, feathered dinosaur. But it’s not. It is a bird, a perching bird. And no amount of “paleobabble� is going to change that.' as for why we've found no human fossils from preflood...first off...I have no idea. Secondly...how do you know we haven't? We've found human fossils...what's to say they aren't fossils made in the flood? Edited January 27, 2004 by Playaa/Pselus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower January 27, 2004 Author Share Watchtower Member January 27, 2004 because if they had, they'd be like "we believe these human skeletons are from the flood".. But no, they can usually be linked to villages or towns not like wide open space or soemthing that would indicate a huge flood.. And they'd all be on the same layer of sediment or close.. And about the Archaeopteryx, this doctor is refuting this evidence because he believes that he has found an Older fossil that is more likely the "dinosaur-bird" Saying this new fossil is indeed not a bird but has feathers so.. Eitherway a darn dino had feathers. "Further, they are not birds, lacking a reverted (backwards facing) big toe (see number 2 below) and a quadrratojugal squamosal contact, having a quadrojugal joined to the quatrate by a ligament and a reduced or absent process of the ishium. These and other characters group Protoarchaeopteryx and Caudipteryx with maniraptoran coelurosaurs rather than birds." The Big Gene Theory Big Gene How about Crustaceans to Insects? Clams to Flies.. And about DNA, if you goto DNAI.Org you can find a representation of our human history.. Along with 450million year old fossils.. It's nice that we keep finding some answers.. What is another hundred years gonna do fo science and technology?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crowbar January 27, 2004 Share Crowbar Member January 27, 2004 Watch, you and I have different beliefs about a lot of things, but we're both similar in our quest for knowledge. You are more active in searching for it than I am. I personally believe what the Bible says, and anything that isn't explained to where I can see the whole picture isn't worth fretting about. God isn't trying to hide anything from me, and he isn't trying to confuse me. He put down the whole story, nice and plain for anyone to read, and the only ones making it complicated are humans. However, just like you said, when I do find information that I can "sink my teeth into," I really enjoy it. That's the reason I like Mere Christianity, and why I'm typing the whole thing out (believe me, my hands are pretty sore after typing a chapter). Every time I read through that I think, "Wow, that really makes sense! I hadn't thought about it like that before." Some of the information you've linked to has made me stop and think as well. But like I said, simply taking the Bible as the literal, plain word of God seems to make the most sense to me. I can believe evolution, a system that has changed it's mind on just about everything several times since it's conception. A system of beliefs that can easily be traced back to a human origin. Basically, a system that is struggling every day to prove itself. Or, I can believe what the Bible says about creation. The story has been the same as long as history has been recorded, without any help from scientists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower January 27, 2004 Author Share Watchtower Member January 27, 2004 "But like I said, simply taking the Bible as the literal, plain word of God seems to make the most sense to me." But that's not the case.. It is oft not looked at literally and needs many different interpretations for some poeple to swallow.. I like literal. That's how it should be viewed in my book. There are very few literalist tho and one can understand why. "Basically, a system that is struggling every day to prove itself." At least it has something to base its theories on.. And all theories are Not just guesses.. 1. theory -- (a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena; "theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses"; "true in fact and theory") 2. hypothesis, possibility, theory -- (a tentative theory about the natural world; a concept that is not yet verified but that if true would explain certain facts or phenomena; "a scientific hypothesis that survives experimental testing becomes a scientific theory"; "he proposed a fresh theory of alkalis that later was accepted in chemical practices") 3. theory -- (a belief that can guide behavior; "the architect has a theory that more is less"; "they killed him on the theory that dead men tell no tales") The "well substantiated" to me is better than "this is what we think this says". There's all kinds of evidence stating otherwise, but this is what we think it says.. If I were raised that way, I can imagine how i could believe in anything else.. But I have to take in everything and evaluate it to the best of my ability.. And I do daily.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower January 27, 2004 Author Share Watchtower Member January 27, 2004 Ant the whole thing about feral children and people raised outside of society tells me that this thinking is not rational "Consequently, this Rule of Right and Wrong, or Law of Human Nature, or whatever you call it, must somehow or other be a real thing - a thing that is really there, not made up by ourselves. And yet it is not a fact in the ordinary sense, in the same way as our actual behaviour is a fact. It begins to look as if we shall have to admit that there is something above and beyond the ordinary facts of men's behaviour, and yet quite definatly real - a real law, which none of us made, but which we find pressing on us." There are real people that live outside of these guidelines.. This is Not something that is built into Humans. A human is a human wether raised by wolves or not.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jane January 29, 2004 Share jane Member January 29, 2004 There are real people that live outside of these guidelines.. This is Not something that is built into Humans. A human is a human wether raised by wolves or not.. i think thats Lewis' point Watchtower.... that we arent raised with this inate sense of right and wrong, but that we are born with it. Its what makes us human. The guidelines Lewis speaks of are relative(meaning close to, not whatever is nice is right) as to how they are applied. But no culture in the world, nor any person in the world has ever(my bad on assuming, though I think I right) not felt a twinge of guilt, a sigh of remorse, a touch of lose for something they have done. It isnt that every single time we do something wrong, our conscience goes nuts. Its that occasionally, when we go against that which we truly know as right(not what we have been taught, but what our hearts know), we know intimately that sense of loss. Have you ever felt at a loss for something you couldnt quite grasp? When you stole a cookie from the plate and Mom didnt catch you? think about it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower January 29, 2004 Author Share Watchtower Member January 29, 2004 Hmm, felt a loss as in? Felt guilty? Sure I've felt guilty.. Only because knowing if the person found out it would be a bad thing.. I wronged that person. I wouldn't want them to wrong me. I still feel guilty about things I've done.. What can ya do? I had this friend of mine call me out of the blue a couple years ago.. I hadn't talked to him in quite a while and I was surprised he called.. He asked me how I was doing and went on to say he was in the process of becoming either a preacher or some sort of clergy.. He then told me he had to tell me that 1 day years ago, he stole this little micro-cassette recorder from me and he had to call and let me know.. I felt bad then knowing how consumed he must have been at the guilt caused by that.. I told him not to worry about it and that was that.. But dogs can feel guilty too.. When they do something bad, that they Know was not allowed... After you scold them, they feel pretty bad.. Some dogs anyway.. Some dogs are just idiots(met one the other night) Some dogs will also act very differently while In the act.. Just caught my dog drinkin out of the toilet the other night, I snuck up on her and when she saw me I made No reaction but she about wigged and tried to run off! Now I've never hit her or anything for doing that, but she knew I was gonna be mad.. Now you'll say this response is conditioned and to evoke proper response from the human, but the dog slinking around, tail between it's legs, ears back, head down would be quite a trick for a young dog to learn if that's all it is.. Animals feel loss.. Elephants will mourn for days beside a loved one or family member.. DOes a Lion ever feel guilty or shamed about anything? Sure.. Being an outcast in their society drives them to move on.. Animals losing in a battle for a female maybe could feel a little dejection or shame.. We aren't on exactly the same level, but we aren't a million miles away either.. And if we were born with something special, outside of natural "do on to others", how could that be covered up or forgot about? Why is it natural for some people to feel this innate "force" when whole other civilizations may have different beliefs and are to the contrary.. And while one persons actions can make them feel extremely guilty, anothers identical behavior could not even make a ripple... Human is Human. Ammendment- About the things I've done and the guilt i still have from them.. This got me thinking. I think about it sometimes and know it's not right. Now would contacting this person and telling them and asking for forgiveness make this situation right? I'd say I would feel better about it.. Is this something instilled into me by a Christian God? I don't think so because just about Any belief system states to be a good person.. Knowing what being a good person is is dictated by society to a point.. Meaning if Everyone was looting and stealing, and if that's all you knew and it was a way of life, i doubt you'd feel guilty about it.. That's just the way it is.. Killing a cow. Now if a Hindu killed a cow, he'd probably explode. he'd have these overwhelming feelings. Now us westerners(and others) can kill and eat cows with no qualms.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower January 29, 2004 Author Share Watchtower Member January 29, 2004 And I'm not sure if you have the right understanding on the term "relative".. Not meaning "almost".. Meaning applicable under different circumstance, but yet the same.. Make sense? Maybe I misunderstood you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jane January 31, 2004 Share jane Member January 31, 2004 rel·a·tive ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rl-tv) adj. Having pertinence or relevance; connected or related. Considered in comparison with something else: the relative quiet of the suburbs. Dependent on or interconnected with something else; not absolute. See Synonyms at dependent. these are from dictionary.com anyways. I dont have much to say besides that right now Watch. I dont know. Its hard to justify sometimes what makes it believable. But then again, its faith, not logic(though I think it is logical in many terms). Logic is ultimately not what God is looking for. Faith is undieing devotion to God's reality nomatter the odds, logic, or seeming evidence that would take us away from God. Hard to explain. Do you have faith in anything Watchtower? Do you just know, without proof? Mother's Love? The Next breath you take? The Yankees will lose the next World Series? All these things are tangable, but not so much so that you could bottle them up and make sure you know they will be there the next second. I hope that question doesnt offend, because its isnt meant to, truly just wondering if you can begin to see where I'm coming from. "Faith is the reality of what is hoped for, the proof of what not seen. By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen has been made from things that are not visible." Hebrews 11:1,3 BTW, if you get the chance to read Job(from the Bible), go for it. Its well worth you time. jane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower January 31, 2004 Author Share Watchtower Member January 31, 2004 I have faith in people. I see faces and work with people everyday.. I believe in them. I have faith in myself. Although i do sometimes doubt as I'm sure all of us do. I have faith in our pursuit of the truth. I have faith in science and the people involved. I have faith in freedom of thought and expression. I have faith in the pursuit of happiness. I have faith in the freedom of choice. I have faith in our President George W. Bush. I have faith in many things.. What do you have faith in? Keep looking at and saying the word faith.. It's starting to look weird to me Main Entry: 1faith Pronunciation: 'fAth Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural faiths /'fAths, sometimes 'fA[th]z/ Etymology: Middle English feith, from Old French feid, foi, from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust -- more at BIDE 1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions 2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust 3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jane February 2, 2004 Share jane Member February 2, 2004 (edited) Why is it looking wierd to you? I have faith in God's Word. I have faith that there is truth, and that truth can only come from God. I have faith that God is leading me in everyday of my life, as long as I allow Him. I have faith that Christ Jesus of Nazareth died on a cross on Golgotha, was laid in a tomb, and then rose from the dead after three days in the ground. I have faith that that death was meant to take my sins away and leave me in good standing with God. I have faith that God will never let me go to far from Him that He wont be able to draw me back. I have faith in sin(yes, i can see where it starts to sound wierd). I have faith that man will sin everyday of his life. I have faith that the only thing that will save us from the penalty of sin is that death of Jesus on the cross. I have faith in all the things you just listed as well. But when I speak of faith in everything but in terms of what God will and can do, I speak in terms of trust/loyalty. When I speak of God and the grestness of Him, I speak of faith as it is unprovable. It seems madness to most(even you maybe ) that I could believe in a cosmic being whom we cant(yet) touch, hear(most of the time), or see(some peolpe did though). But I have faith in a God who would love the world so much that He would(because of our pain and suffering and He desire for us to never suffer again) send His only Son to take away sin(when you look deep enough you will find that sin is the root of pain, not God's injustice, nor His lack of power to stop it) from a dieing world. I am pleased that I know in my heart the truth of my faith and that I will see God. jane edit Since you got the Bible now, try reading Hebrews 11. Its the book I keep refencing to about faith. Its got a good list of faith acts(so-to-speak) by people throughout the bible. Edited February 2, 2004 by jane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower February 3, 2004 Author Share Watchtower Member February 3, 2004 I tried to read Job.. It just goes on and on about the same stuff.. I don't think all of that is necessary to prove the point.. It fills pages nicely tho "It seems madness to most(even you maybe ) that I could believe in a cosmic being whom we cant(yet) touch, hear(most of the time), or see(some peolpe did though)" No, I totally understand why you believe the way you do.. Anyone with any sort of belief system(all of us?). I understand the reason I believe the way I do.. Can you imagine what it would take for you to believe anything but what you think is true? Do you know why that is? Why do you think people believe what they believe in so strongly? And about the word sounding weird I don't know, if I was a word over and over again i start to think "how did they come up with this to mean this?" And the word just doesn't sound right anymore.. Then it's back to normal.. Call me crazy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jane February 4, 2004 Share jane Member February 4, 2004 (edited) youre crazy. lol. anyways, yeah I hear ya. I cant imagine what it would take to shake my faith so much that I would believe differently. I dont know why faith is such a powerful thing in this world. My best guess comes form my own(faith). I would say that God desires us to want Him, to hope for Him, and to love Him, without indeniable proof. Would it be harder for you to love Jesus as I love Him now, if you could see Him and talk to Him and know who He is? I think not, though coming from your stand point, I'm sure you'd want to ask a hella lota questions before deciding to give up and serve Him. Like.....(heres where you start your questions again and I try to answer them ) So, yeah I think faith is so personal becasue God wants us to be that way and God made us to be a faithful people. jane Edited February 4, 2004 by jane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower February 4, 2004 Author Share Watchtower Member February 4, 2004 Well on the strength of your belief system, I was talking more about the fact that once you start with a certain belief, you form your future beliefs based upon those initial ones.. Your whole fabric is woven with them. To convince someone otherwise it usually takes a catastrophic, or miraculous life changing event.. Not that God has some power controlling you or helping you believe. Or wants us all to believe. Or we all would. Not that I'm saying you said that but.. Boy thats all over the place.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jane February 9, 2004 Share jane Member February 9, 2004 lol "I was talking more about the fact that once you start with a certain belief, you form your future beliefs based upon those initial ones" interesting point. I guess I've never thought of it that way. Um, I guess I dont know what to answer with either. Are you asking what it would take to make those future beliefs go away? Or are you asking why one would want to make them go away? Im cunfuzled. But I know this: my beliefs are new each day. God reveals new thigns through His word and His world to me and I find myself learning and believing new things of Him each day. I am open to learning new things. I love to open my mind to hearing other views in the world, to understand theirsviews and my own. If I am to understand how life works, and how God has made this world I have to understand(not necessarily agree with) other people ways of understanding the world they live in. jane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower April 3, 2004 Author Share Watchtower Member April 3, 2004 If you are an atheist you do have to believe that the main point in all the religions of the whole world is simply one huge mistake. See it gets me right off the rip.. I see very little truth in this. As a matter of fact I think it is borderline schitzophrenic for lack of a better tem. Why would you say something like that? I did read the rest though. I think I need to read the last 2/3 again.. Not quite sinking in. You know Einstein was a Pantheist.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crowbar April 3, 2004 Share Crowbar Member April 3, 2004 Definition of atheist Religions are centered around God or gods. An atheist, by definition, does not believe in any God or gods, or any higher power. Thus Lewis is correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower April 4, 2004 Author Share Watchtower Member April 4, 2004 It's nothing about a mistake though.. he just makes some broad based assumptions.. I can't agree.. An atheist, by definition, does not believe in any God or gods, or any higher power This has nothing to do with mistakes.. He like to sensationalize everything.. Just because He thought(or didn't think at all) a certain way doesn't mean Everyone else thinks the same way. I don't like when people generalize and stereotype. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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