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Wondering....


jane

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All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.

 

 

That is I Corinthians 6:12. Does this mean I can smoke weed? Does this mean I can rape young girls? I suppose it would, so long as it doesnt become the master of me, right? Any thougts?

 

 

BTW, this, I suppose, would be fodder for Watchtower( ;) ) and play for PLayaa( :o ). Let me know. i've been struggling with this as i am currently addicted(mastered) to nicotine, but dont know where to go with it.

 

 

jane :unsure::crazy:

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I think in this case we have a translation problem...we'd need an origional Greek translation to be studied by someone who understands the nuance of the words...but I believe that it means something more along the lines of:

"I CAN do everything but that doesn't mean I should"

as in you have the ability...but just because you have the ability to cut off your hand...it doesn't mean it's gonna be a good thing to do...

you also need to look in context...from what I remember Paul was talking about eating meat in front of your brother who thought eating meat was wrong....check the context out and make sure what you're reading applies.

 

as for nicotine...my opinion is quit...it has no benefit in your life so why do it?

however I do understand that's not an easy thing to do.

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Yeah, we're gonna quit at the end of the month.. Join us Jane! :P

About smoking weed, I'd say first that God had put the green herb on the planet for us to use. Is that supposed to be limited to certain green herbs? If a usefull purpose was been found for a certain green herb, should it not be allowable to use in the eyes of the Lord? Not trying to advocate illegal consumption as not many 16 and 17 year olds have glaucoma :) In fact, certain states have laws concerning legal marijuana. If the state says ok, why wouldn't God? :tired:

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rgr that Playaa. I should quit. And i think that is what the verse means, but most translations say permissible, not lawful. That is where I get stuck....

 

 

the word used here is exesti often translated as: may, permissible, lawful and permitted.

 

the other word is sumfero, often translated as: advantage, commmon good, expediant, profitable

 

 

thats what is there, but isnt coming from a greek scholar

 

look at crosswalk.com for a good lexicon and literally every translation....

 

 

jane

 

 

edit, there you go Watch. I was thinking similarly. I dont smoke the stuff, but I do know the arguement, if the state says its ok, then God says its ok(Matt 22:21 common referance, but i dont agree)

Edited by jane
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actually the Matthew verse (if that's the one about ceasar's money) is taken out of context quite often....it's saying that people shouldn't try to get out of taxes by using the church as an excuse.

about the weed thing...I think weed fits perfectly under this argument...if you're smoking weed to help your glaucoma...then I'd say it's helping you out...however if you're smoking weed to "have a good time" then what you're doing isn't really beneficial plus there are side effects (even though every weed smoker says there aren't) that can harm you greatly in the long run.

I actually view alchohol in the same light...what point is there in drinking it and harming my brain cells? People often use the excuse that alchohol helps the heart but that's actually just wine and it's mainly the fruits in the wine that are good for the heart....so go drink grape juice.

I don't view drinking alchohol as wrong...I just view it as pointless and often dumb.

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I believe that Paul was saying all things are lawful as in, since Christ took paid the price for all sin and that since we are no longer under the old law (of performing sacrifices to cover our sin), all things are allowable for us to do but just because, in the eye's of God, we are covered for doing these things, not all things will help us in our Christian walk.

 

Commit rape? I suppose if you want to be an extremist, but are you really following the words of Christ who said "Love the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength and love your neighbor as yourself"? My goal is a deeper walk with God and Christ. To commit some of these acts, that we are no longer restricted by the Levitical laws, would weaken that relationship and draw us away from God, not toward him.

 

As for the green herb, I see it the same as nicotine and alcohol. When and where it is lawful to do such things, that is fine (unless done to excess...the life of a Christian should be one of moderation). The Bible says to follow the laws of the land in so much that it does not cause you to go against your walk with Christ (this is a very touchy subject as some people can use this to justify their own actions instead). I personally don't partake of the herbage and most likely never will in my life. It is not something I want to put into my body (not that it is inherently bad, I just don't need it) and seeing as how I have refrained for all my life (31 years), I don't see myself needing it anytime in the future. But there are laws against it's recreational use. Those should be followed I believe. Others disagree with me and that is the right and choice.

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actually the Matthew verse (if that's the one about ceasar's money) is taken out of context quite often....it's saying that people shouldn't try to get out of taxes by using the church as an excuse.

rgr thats why i said

Matt 22:21 common referance, but i dont agree

 

 

the life of a Christian should be one of moderation
cough Splinter cough

;)

 

 

 

 

I hear you guys. I dont know. I know that is what is the christian doctrine on the subject, having been to sunday school my whole life. But I like to take thing literally. I'm not trying to justify weed and such, but I want to know why we think its bad. Protect the temple? I see that point. But what about, say, CS or BF1942? Things that are not good or bad in any stretch of the imagination(excepting Tipper Gore's Commitee). But why is it looked on in a bad way by those lefties some times?(no political stuff there btw, i may be voting left myself this coming presidential race)

 

im out

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Yeah Jane.. I feel ya. Ingesting the green herb is about the equivalent of choking down a double quarter pounder as far as "protecting the temple" is concerned.. Possibly even worse. If you eat 2 double quarter pounders a day for 20 years you're going to keel over with some heart condition almost certainly. Are other things we ingest as bad? I'd have to say between Cocaine, Heroin, and Quarter pOunders, the QP's aren't far behind! Why should we view this in any different light? Now the legality of it... if Prohibition would have kept, it would still be illegal to drink alcohol(which I think it should be). That drug does more damage in our society than all others combined.. Tenfold. But then the wheat and barley were put on the planet for our use. Does that mean that we can do whatever we want with it? Unless someone with authority over us tells us we can't. Hmm. I'd say as long as you think you are a firm believer, you could do just about anything with anything and feel right in the eyes of God. In that aspect I believe that the Christian view of morality can lead to amorality. In fact it does. You're going to argue that that is only seen in extremeism, but I'm going to say it starts with that type of belief system. It's unique and has it's definite by-products.

 

Question, would you think that some of the people in european countries without all the prohibitions lead good Christian lives whilst partaking in what their society deems "lawfull"?

Edited by Watchtower
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as for QP's...I concur...it is as harmful...and should be treated that way.

as for alchohol....again I concur that it is a worse drug than weed.

 

as for Christian morality leading to amorality...you are incorrect there sir. greatest commandment...love your neighbor as yourself...(actually the greatest is love the lord your God)

people often overlook that one when thinking about things like this.

Are you loving someone by making them smoke secondhand smoke?

Are you loving someone by drinking then driving somewhere?

Are you loving someone for LETTING them drink then drive somewhere?

 

love is the key...and I'm not talking about what we call love...I'm talking about "Agape love"...read Corinthians 13 and when you read the word "love" don't think about the love between a man and woman...think about the love of a father who'd jump in front of a bus to save his kid...think that kind of love...

once you read through that...90% of what "Christians" (I use the quotes to talk about those who call themselves Christians but don't have a clue what it means) do and talk about doesn't take love into effect.

In my mind the love a person shows is one way to distinguish a "Christian" and a Christian...

by the way...I'm no longer a Christian...I'm a Jesus-ite.....Christian has gotten a bad reputation.

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Is that actually a commandment? Are you talking about coveting thy neighbor? The first commandment is no other God.. When I look at the commandments, that seems to be the one that stick out in importance.. That and thou shall not kill.. How about graven images? Dosent an image of a cross and Jesus qualify? Do we all worship on Saturday?

And i am incorrect only in your opinion. Show me another belief system outside of Christianity, Judaism, or Islam(all basically the same) that has the same type of "interpretation" problems. Fact is the bible is full of intolerance and violence. God sacrificing his son for mankind.. Is that love? Why does God allow suffering? Where is the love.

About the love, "Christians" are allowed to believe and act they way they do because in their hearts they feel sins are repented and their continued following leads them to heaven.. You have to be able to convince them otherwise. But God through the bible has taught us many times that seemingly atrocious acts go on pretty much unpunished and authorized ie David, 1 samuel:15, Numbers 31:17-18.. Twist it one way, twist it another. The fact is it exists.

*thoughts to myself: It's late. I probably didn't make any sense. Angering people. I'm making them think though so I'm seeing the good in it.. Maybe answer some of my questions... Zzzzzzz

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if you read the gospels (which you might not have got to yet) someone at a religious discussion asks Jesus what the greatest commandment is...they are trying to trap him with an unanswerable question...Jesus replies saying the greatest commandment is to love the Lord your God....and after this to love your neighbor as yourself...because if you follow those 2 things...all the other 10 commandments will be kept.

as for graven images...now you're taking the legalistic approach...that's the problem the Jews got into. The "law" says you can't work on a sabbath...digging is work....dragging a chair across a dirt floor moves dirt and is therefore digging and therefore cannot be done (I kid you not this was a law in Jesus time....no moving furniture on a sunday even if it's dragging a chair across the room to sit down in).

I'm pretty sure that God doesn't mean "don't worship something that's been carved"...

and that is 90% of why people don't understand the Bible...they go at it thinking everything is exactly what it says...

do you honestly think that when Jesus was talking about the different types of ground to plant seeds on he was giving a farming lesson?

"Christians" are allowed to believe and act they way they do because in their hearts they feel sins are repented and their continued following leads them to heaven

wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.

seriously...sorry if I'm insulting you but you just don't get what I've been saying. If someone say beats up your mother and says it's ok because God forgave them...do you really think that's what God says?

People constantly blame the God for atrocities that have happened in the past in his name....just because I go over to France and blow up the Iffel tower in the name of the United States....does that mean the U.S. told me to do it?

you need to know what the Bible says and when people do things in God's name that are against the Bible...I just flat out laugh at them for being idiots (godhatesrags.com, KKK, Nazi's....they're all morons who have no credibility)

the bible is NOT full of intolerance and violence...you just see it that way.

Think about it from a different perspective. Pretend you believe the Bible is truth...now...there's something in there you don't understand...what do you draw from that? That the Bible is wrong? No, you draw from it that you don't understand.

I'll look for the verse but there is one that talks about basically how we don't need to know the answer to every question and looking for the answers often gets us beyond the solution.

get what I'm saying there?

(this isn't a very good example) If a woman comes to me and tells me there is a hole in her roof because of rain...should I go and figure out exactly how the rain is getting in and examine the hole to make sure she's telling the truth or should I fix the hole?

WAAAAAY too often people look at the Bible and spend years and years discussing and debating and arguing when all they need to be doing is acting.

Which do you think God prefers?

A man spending 30 years studying the Bible and being able to tell you the answer to any question in the Bible as soon as you ask, or a man who works in a homeless shelter for 5 years scooping beans onto plates and saying "God bless you" to the people?

 

That's why I said read Corinthians 13...seriously Watch...if you ever see someone claiming to be a Christian and not obeying that chapter...point it out to them and if they're a true Christian they'll understand...Christianity is about Love.

now the thing is that again you can't think of earthly love....

someone posed this question to me once to try to disprove me...but to me it just further explains why it's not an earthly love.

if someone breaks into my house and is going to shoot my wife and kids...what does love say I do? Out of love I should let the man live right? Wrong. Love is shooting him. Not necessarily shooting to kill but stopping the man no matter what. Shoot him a couple times if you want...(that's a joke)

You shoot him and not only do you save your family but you've stopped the man from doing something that he should DEFINATLY not do.

Love is a parent grounding their child after their kid sneaks out of the house at night. It's not about breaking the rules...it's about teaching that rules are what make us humans and keep society together.

 

if everyone in this world obeyed Corinthians 13 and never even read any other part of the Bible...I garauntee you we'd have a perfect world...the problem is that people won't do that because they have no motivation. Living by love puts you at a disadvantage in this world BIG TIME. Out of love my mother has given up MANY things in this life to let me have things I didn't need....love is self sacrificing...it's kind, patient, gentle...live by love and you'll never go wrong.

Love is why I let myself get so frustrated by talking to you...because I honestly feel like the Bible is the truth and it has the answers to all of life's questions...and because of that I want others to know that....so if you disagree with me, I'm not debating with you just so I can be right...I'm debating with you so that you might have this gift that I have...I know it sounds pompous but it's how we all live...you debate with me so that I'll see your point of view...I'm only doing the same...we both feel we're right....if I did any less than try to prove my point to you I wouldn't be living in love.

There IS a chance I'm wrong (on certain aspects...nothing in this life will make me believe there isn't a power higher than us...it just doesn't make sense)...and I'm willing to admit I'm wrong if I'm proven wrong...but on the chance that I'm right and I didn't share it with you....how is that living by love?

 

wow...rant much?

did I make any sense there?

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sorry

as for the things you posted from the Old Testament.

simply put...I really just don't have the answer....but that doesn't stop me from believing because I know that I will never know all the answers.

I don't have a CLUE what the square root of 40,020,403 is...but that doesn't mean I don't believe 2 +2 = 4

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Bible isn't full of violence? I hate to say it but I think you are wrong there.. From genesis on, tales of whole civilizations being wiped out. Men ransacking villages and taking their children and wives for their own.. i'm sorry but there is violence throughout the book. And the book says that God is telling them to do it.

I also understand the points you tried to make about love.. The burglar. But he already did something he wasn't supposed to do so you aren't really saving him from anything.. He's already in your house. I get the point you're trying to make tho.. Sin is a Sin is a Sin..

"If someone say beats up your mother and says it's ok because God forgave them...do you really think that's what God says?" Yes and that's what you have to say as a Christian. The only unforgivable sin is suicide right? Christians are taught to love the person who just beat up your mother. If he was a true believer and just got off the path for a second, by repenting and confessing his sin he is forgiven by the father.. A Sin is a Sin is a Sin. Except for one.. That is a problem with me.

Edited by Watchtower
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Watch, that is a really terrible thing for anyone to have to go through, but it wouldn't make me lose my faith. I understand that we are in a fallen world (God gave dominion of it to Adam and he gave it to Satan when he ate of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge) and often bad things happen to good people. God didn't cause it to happen and I have seen God perform miracles to counter it but it comes down to the understanding that we are in a dying and decaying world.

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i think love is the law and it always has been. smoking in some societies is a better thing for a christian cause its shows brotherhood or fellowship in some ways. It does not take you away from God. It does not bring you near...its like food but no nutrition. It's not what goes into you mouth. When you lose control of your body (lsd, alchohol on a high level) thats when its time to quit.

 

I'm convinced that the law is breakable w/o sinning.

 

I think Jesus broke the law but never sinned. Most people teach he obeyed the law to fullfill it. I don't. I think he broke it because the law is love not regulations of do's and dont's.

 

So my response to Jane is if you feel unclean about it in your conscinece then drop it.

if you feel it does not control you away from God then do it if you like. But also be warned

that tar will kill you in time and it's sooooooo painful. So my advice is QUIT! not for spiritual reasons

but for I'd be sad to hear Jane in 10 years died a painful death :(

 

Auggy

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"If someone say beats up your mother and says it's ok because God forgave them...do you really think that's what God says?" Yes and that's what you have to say as a Christian. The only unforgivable sin is suicide right? Christians are taught to love the person who just beat up your mother. If he was a true believer and just got off the path for a second, by repenting and confessing his sin he is forgiven by the father.. A Sin is a Sin is a Sin. Except for one.. That is a problem with me.

 

I dont get this here, but The only unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit(matt 12:31). Yeah I just dont have any clue as to how to answer this thought process. Got any ideas there Watch? Can you clear this up for me? I am stuck on how those last few phrases correlate with each other and the rest of your post... o0o:unsure::blink: but i will survive!

 

jane

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So my advice is QUIT!  not for spiritual reasons

but for I'd be sad to hear Jane in 10 years died a painful death :(

lol thx auggy. im working on it, got myself some tooth picks and they really work well to take away the whole oral-fixation thing.... :wub: life is better when i dont have nicotine coursing through my veins.

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Watch...you're right that as Christians we are told to forgive the guy who beat up our mother...but what you forgetting is that forgiveness DOES NOT get rid of consequences. Forgiveness means that once the consequences are dealt with it should be forgotten...but there still ARE the consequences.

It means if someone kills my mother I do my best to make him go to jail for life...and if he gets out on parol...I should have forgotten about it and move on...now I know you can't just forget about the guy who kills your mom...but you CAN choose how you treat him.

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Well the consequences just aren't there for that type of regulation by faith. Noone has ever seen someone go to hell.. People Have seen others get their hands chopped off.. I'm not advocating corporal punishment, I'm just pointing out a flaw with that ideology.

And "Once the consequences are dealt with".. So you are looking at a Judge like God and assuming he is going to deal out the right punishment for the crime and the person will then be right in the eyes of the Lord? What happens if you feel the punishment is unjust? And the person goes on living his Christian life with that one little black mark..

Jane, the sin is a sin is a sin stuff is me saying that God isn't looking at everyones sins any different. So you sinning by looking at that girl lustfully or marrying a divorced woman is the same as some guy walking up and hitting my grandma.. And I was trying to say that every sin is forgivable except.. I thought it was suicide.. Are they considering suicide as blasphemy?

 

And about the losing faith thing.. Your right, I didn't say you would lose your faith. You would have some serious questions. And you couldn't say for sure unless you went through something like that. Any of the devout ones in here have a tale of tremendous suffering? I just heard some pretty graphic details from an 80 y/o woman abot her husbands 5 year bout with cancer. She dosen't want to live anymore. It was pretty sad.. That was her biggest question. Why did he have to suffer like that.. And God didn't do it? Isn't he responsible for all of our actions? Catastrophes(acts of God?). If you are going to give him credit for that earthquake last week, then you have to give him credit for everything.. He could give someone a heart attack in the middle of their sleep like they pray he do, but he usually doesn't.

Edited by Watchtower
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Jane, the sin is a sin is a sin stuff is me saying that God isn't looking at everyones sins any different.  So you sinning by looking at that girl lustfully or marrying a divorced woman is the same as some guy walking up and hitting my grandma..  And I was trying to say that every sin is forgivable except..  I thought it was suicide..  Are they considering suicide as blasphemy?

 

And God didn't do it?  Isn't he responsible for all of our actions?

ok sorry missed my name in there.

 

First off. When I say every sin is the saem, it jsut means that lieing about whether you took a cookie from the jar or hitting a woman is the same, in that either one will separate you from God eternally. Unless you confess that it was a sin and you need to be forgiven of it and that you desire to live with God eternally. Not that all sins are equal as in baddness. It simply means that all sins will come will an equal consequence. Understand?

 

Suicide. I suppose you could stretch out all sins to blasphemy in the end. If i didnt already descirbe that word, it means that you turn your back on God's will for your life, forever. If suicide is such a way of doing it, then yeah its unforgiveable. Suicide is a sin you cant take the time to repent of after you commit it, becasue as soon as you do, it judgement time. If you're a Christian(meaning you profess faith in the saving grace(unmerited favor) of Jesus' blood) then you will most likely not go to Hell(a bad, bad place). If you're not a Christian, then you're not worse off than you would have been had you never commited suicide. Tough lesson, and I may be wrong. Preach? Playaa? Crow(where is crow btw is he not hanging around anymore)?

 

God is not responisble for our actions at all. He created us. With an ability to choose our actions. Our choices are our responisbilities.

 

[194] jane(haha i just got recruited for a BF1942 clan)

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So God never speaks to anyone and tells them to do things? The people in the bible said he did.. Why couldn't it be happening today? Many people say it is? That's all I'm saying.. It should be conceivable that God could directly influence our actions.. I guess my point is that that belief system is based on fear.. The more you fear eternal damnation, the more you believe in the way to prevent you from going.. Some people go through their lives very simply and free of as much "worldly" stuff as possible. People who give up just about everything. Once you stray slightly, you might as well give up. Surely that is Their interpretation of what is expected of us. I guess I'm just not to fond of our "modernalistic" approach.. Everyone sins more and more and it's pretty much out of sight, out of mind. I dunno. The varying degrees of christianity..

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so do believe in sin then? or are you just quoting what we might say? if you believe in sin, do then believe that there might be a right way to live? if that, could you concieve of a standard? if a standard could you think about why it is there? Is it there because we all sat down and decided it was good this way and not that? or maybe because someone else, above this system we find oursleves in made it that way? :huh: think about i know we've covered this ground recently, but you've been posting recently with a concession to sin there consistantly and was wondering where you sit with it all..... :unsure:

 

jane

 

*edit*

 

btw if God spoke to thsoe in the bible, he surely does now. Tye fact that He speaks doesnt mean we listen. Adam and Eve are primary examples. As well as any major or minor character in the Bible. Excepting Jesus ;) . If we have free choice, then if God speaks to us, we can choose whether to listen or not. Even if we choose to listen to Him, then we are still responsible gfor our own actions. Meow if we happen to listen but ignore Him, isnt that our responsiblity? Shouldnt it be the same the other way around? Did I just repeat myself? :o oh well.

Edited by jane
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I guess my point is that that belief system is based on fear.. The more you fear eternal damnation, the more you believe in the way to prevent you from going..

I find statements like that really insulting Watch. Especially considering I've explained to you why it's not true about 3 times. You're basically saying my entire life is a farce and you have no evidence for it, only your thoughts. That really is insulting.

I do not in any way whatsoever follow Christianity because I am afraid of Hell. I follow it because I believe it to be true. I do not obey God's commands because I'm afraid he'll roast me with lightning. I obey because I feel towards him as I do towards my dad...I don't want there to be any dissappointment, I want no reason to make him sad.

That's another misconception folks have of God.

When we sin, he isn't instantly getting angry and frying us....he gets sad because our sin hurts him. We are built after God's image the Bible says...and that means we're made emotionally like him as well...so when someone does something wrong or breaks a promise to you (basically what we do when we sin) it hurts more than it angers me...and I hate being disappointed and disappointing people.

 

so I'll say it again. I don't follow this out of fear...I follow because I believe...it's that simple.

If you believed (and had valid evidence to support it) that the Cowboys would win the Superbowl this year...would you bet on them? If you wouldn't then you aren't too bright.

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I guess my point is that that belief system is based on fear.. The more you fear eternal damnation, the more you believe in the way to prevent you from going..

I find statements like that really insulting Watch. Especially considering I've explained to you why it's not true about 3 times. You're basically saying my entire life is a farce and you have no evidence for it, only your thoughts. That really is insulting.

I do not in any way whatsoever follow Christianity because I am afraid of Hell. I follow it because I believe it to be true. I do not obey God's commands because I'm afraid he'll roast me with lightning. I obey because I feel towards him as I do towards my dad...I don't want there to be any dissappointment, I want no reason to make him sad.

That's another misconception folks have of God.

When we sin, he isn't instantly getting angry and frying us....he gets sad because our sin hurts him. We are built after God's image the Bible says...and that means we're made emotionally like him as well...so when someone does something wrong or breaks a promise to you (basically what we do when we sin) it hurts more than it angers me...and I hate being disappointed and disappointing people.

 

so I'll say it again. I don't follow this out of fear...I follow because I believe...it's that simple.

If you believed (and had valid evidence to support it) that the Cowboys would win the Superbowl this year...would you bet on them? If you wouldn't then you aren't too bright.

enough said, once again playaa takes the cake ;)

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