Mormons AGAIN!!!!

[auggybendoggy]

2 more came to my door and I invited em in.

 

We had quite a discussion as the Yankees were beating the Red Sox but I kept trying to peek over to the TV to watch the game and then decided to shut it off.

 

We got into some deep stuff especially on the law and grace. Interesting note is these two believe we are saved by grace and that our works are what completes are faith (from James) which is what I hear from protestants.

 

It is no shock to others I'm sure that I've ventured to go further than mormons in my thoughts

 

Ok so I don't believe we do anything that GETS us saved...but my thoughts are questions that I don't think any mormon can answer along with many protestants or catholics or JWs. I tend to think I'm probably wrong but theres no sense in not asking questions. It's not as though God gets angry if we ask a dumb question is it?

 

Aug

[gOOters]

I wouldnt think so. He created us to be curious. What are your questions? Maybe Rev will poke his nose in here.

 

Whoa...4400 posts, fatness

Edited October 20, 2004 by gOOters

[spiralstairs]

I know what your saying auggy. About how you feel that religious folk cant answer some of your questions.

 

I was raised Jewish (by my fathers wishes... my mom is a christian) and I never felt like that when I went to Synagogue when I was little.

 

My rabbi was awesome, not only because he has a sweet background (he wrote country songs for Loretta Lynn in Nashville!) but because he was a great, unjudging person.

 

He is one of those new-school jews (whats the word? opposite of orthodox?) and I used to be able to ask him all sorts of questions without worrying about getting a condescending response.

 

Once I even asked him if you have to believe in God to be a good jew, to which he answered a simple, "No."

[auggybendoggy]

spiral, I think the answer is "reformed"...just a guess.

 

Yea, I'm really questioning my whole faith. I don't think God wants us to NOT question it. He wants us to seek him and his kingdom but I feel like most people just embrace it w/o any real interest.

 

Most of my life I have heard how if you don't accept trinity then there is something spiritually wrong with you. I was told if you obey then you are good.

 

I see such a contradiction in grace and law that I feel no one has a formula to explain it. I think God meant it to be this way. His ways are higher than ours and we can't formulate anything to prove or "catch" him.

 

We as people seem to try to formulate everything. And when I read the bible I see two roads constantly. I think it keeps us balanced like a fiddler on the roof

 

When I talked to these 2 missionaires (mormon) they were CRYSTAL clear that they are taught and they believe we are saved by grace and not by any deed we do. I asked then what they made of James and it was a semantic of our interpretation of James. I mean protestants when I say "we" or "our". They simply stated James means if you love God you will act upon your true faith...if you don't act (work) then it's because you don't love God. This is protestant theology and I can't say they believe or preach "you are saved by works"...

 

it is usually (necessary) baptisim or (necessary) missions that tell protestants they believe in salvation by works but the missionaries plainly stated these are commandments of God and if you love him you do them...if you don't do them then it's cause you don't love him thus it is God bringing us to do these things not ourselves and our love is expressed through these works. Again I'm not so sure theyre wrong.

I tend to see more and more why martin luther said "dump" james.

 

Auggy

[auggybendoggy]

my real question as I have read multiple articles and sermons on James, is...is it a contradiction to pauls faith alone poisition.

 

I've been raised in the protestant church but having spent some time with a few mormons I gathered the doctrine they believe which is the same as protestants.

 

That is they pronouced salvation by grace via faith.

and this faith accompanies actions.

 

I tend to understand the protestant position to equate the same.

 

I tend to disagree with the mormons and the protestants however but I myself cannot solve the "riddle" (thats what I call it).

 

We as protestants first say Paul and James are not in contradiction.

 

as if saying in one verse "a ball is always round"

and another verse says "a ball is sometimes round"...

the ultimate conclusion is this is a logical contradiction.

 

if the ball sometimes is NOT Round but another verse says it is ALWAYS then there is a problem.

 

James clearly states "so we see we are not justified by faith alone but also by what we do" which flys in the face of pauls writings..."we are not justified by what we do but by faith alone".

 

I have read TONS of protestant and mormon pieces on this and it seems they don't face the reality of what scripture says.

 

My own peopel (protestant) do a WEAK job in defending the "james doesnt mean it literally" type of reasoning cause then the mormons use that on every other verse on other subjects and you end up in a mess.

I feel protestants should buck up and say "its a contridiction, but it does not destroy my faith".

 

Auggy

[Sir Shertown Pimp]

You can't just lump protestants into one huge group when it comes to grace: for the instance the Presbyterians and Baptists have very different views.

[chuckleslove]

I'm a confirmed Lutheran(Missouri Synod) we believe that you are saved by grace through faith. There is nothing you personally can do to save yourself it is only by God's grace and your faith in him. As a result of your faith you will start to show good deeds but those deeds are a result of God working through you and not anything you did on your own and not anything that will give you better standing in God's eyes. Good deeds are just something a Christian will do. I'm honestly not sure what exactly you are asking. I myself have questioned faith and religion a lot in my life(I think its a natural thing when you have had some of the hardships I have been through) and I just can't fathom that everything in this world has happened by chance. My brain is too logical to accept that something this large has come together by chance and luck. One thing my pastor said in confirmation class back in the day was "If you take all the pieces of a 747 jet and put them in a large bag and you have some infinite power source shake that bag so the pieces jumble all over the place, how long will it take until you have a working 747?" The answer of course is never and then he went on to make the point that a human is infinitly more complex than a jet airplane. On the other hand I have had troubles comprehending some all powerful being that just is and always has been. None of it makes sense if I try to put it together myself. Luckily for me I don't think God necessarily wants me to understand it, I don't think we could ever understand his mysterious ways or his will. I just have to accept it and accept what he has done for me(the ultimate sacrifice) and take it for what its worth. It is pretty obvious that by nature us humans sin but luckily God has grace for us and there isn't anything I can do by my own will to earn salvation from God. So the conclusion I have come to is just accept it and take my grace through faith and then through that my actions will show themself.

 

Kind of a rant and maybe I am completely missing the point of what you are asking, Im really tired atm

[auggybendoggy]

cong, let me say this on the "troubles comprehending some all powerful being that just is and always has been"...

 

I listened to a radio show on AI theories. These certain programmers (dont know who they are) are convinced that creating a comptuter that either thinks or imitates thinking so much one could not tell is possible.

but one interesting thing they started talking about was that if this were so they believed it was impossible for the AI to ever experience what it was like to be human.

 

Then I started expanding on these thoughts. What could we say to a machine. The machine understands we are made of cells and comprise of nerves, liquids, chemicals and all kinds of matter. But how do you tell a machine what pain feels like. How do you tell a machine what a broken heart feels like. How do you tell a computer what in-n-out cheeseburgers taste like? The AI may understand the principals to the human but cannot fully grasp what it is like to be human. The machine could never see the world the way we see it. It would see via numbers where we see via physical properties (perhaps translated to numbers??)

but all in all we are this AI who is trying despretley to understand God in his fullness and we just cant do it.

 

Now on to works.

 

Cong,

my trouble with the most (like that pimp) protestants is that "grace alone faith alone" does not jive with James. As you have stated before and in the above post "works are the product" of salvation.

 

The problem James creates for us is that it clearly states "we see that a man is not justified by faith alone but also by what he does"

 

I've read martin Luthers excuse for this which is (also calvins)

we are justified by faith alone but not by a faith that is alone.

 

but indeed that is not what James says...

we are not justified by faith alone but also by what we do.

 

It is a confusing logic to say...

If I am saved I will produce good works.

 

If I do not feed my brother (do good works) than I am covered by grace

cause It does not depend on me but on God

 

but by this grace I will feed my brother cause I am truly saved.

 

this leads to the mormon understanding if you do not feed your brother

then you ARE NOT SAVED. Which goes against protestant theology becasue works are not a means. For if one does not feed his brother he still is saved because of grace.

 

it is implied even in the understanding you express (Im not saying it demands) that Good works are a result of your faith; implication being if you do not have the good works (feed your brother) then your faith is not real and you are not saved.

 

But protestants have this scape goat of "well even though I didnt feed my brother" grace is sufficient to carry me. My works do not make or break me cause they are a result not a means. Thus intellectual salvation becomes all important.

 

In an honest observation since you've been a chrisitian have you done evil? If so is this a result of "fake faith" and you are truly unsaved or is it just a small mistake that can be forgiven but the other guy James is talking to is a bigger sinner and has a faker faith?

 

thus paul would be incorrect...

murderers, alduterers, sexually immoral, thiefs all will enter into heaven because they intellectually grasped the gospel and their deeds do not matter.

even paul exhorts Behavior matters.

for if works do not play a role in justfication then behavior does not matter.

 

It just doesnt make sense in the way we teach.

The understandind that all of it comes from God does not mean a person must understand it to be saved. For example if a man does a good deed (because God does it via him) and does not realized God did it via him God will not fault the man for doing this good work. All good things are from God and our infantile understanding is not a PREREQ to being a godly man. Our actions are more sought by how we treat others. Thus James is correct.

 

I'm not saying we are saved by what we do.

Who can do anything that impresses God. If we do good it's becuase God is doing it through us. So Paul is correct also

 

I'm saying you cannot formulate God by a verse or two when scripture clealry goes against our total understanding.

 

I am convinced James goes against our understanding so that it bring us closer to God. I am NOT convinced James is saying works are a product of true faith. I am convinced James is saying works matter in justification. I am also convinced that Paul goes in the opposite direction making "cornering" God impossible.

 

If someone can interpret the line mentioned by james

"we are not justified by faith alone but also by what we do"

in a clear objective manner I would appreciate it.

 

NOW WHERES WATCHTOWER!!!! HE'S ALWAYS FUN TO TALK TO ON ISSUES OF RELIGION AND PHILOSOPHY.

 

Auggy

Edited November 13, 2004 by auggybendoggy

[ConGregation]

Hi auggy. You were talking to chuck and not me

 

But James can be explained. I approach it from this viewpoint. I believe the Bible is the Word of God. Thus, if God wrote it, then it will all agree. I one passage 'appears' to disagree then I need to search it out further. Not saying you have to agree with the way I approach it but just so its on the table.

 

James is dealing with the persons who basically would say I'm saved but never show it through works. In vs 22 he says "by works was faith made perfect", the perfect description of faith producing works.

 

In verse 18 is the key, I believe. He says "show me they faith without thy works and I will show you my faith BY my works" (emphasis mine). It is the fruit principle. You can tell what kind of tree it is when you see the apples, oranges, cherries, etc. It is a proof of what has been professed.

 

But remember this is all outward. Works are a proof to those you witness to. To your family and friends to whom you have made a profession. I show YOU my faith by my works. I do not show you my faith by my sin. Man looketh on the outward but God looketh on the heart. God sees right down to the root of what we are inside. Man can only look upon the 'effects' of what is inside. Much like Jesus describes in John 3... the wind blows but we don't see the wind, only the effect of the wind.

 

The two OT illustrations mention in James bear this out. Both acted upon a faith. Abraham believed God and Rahab believed the report of the spies. Then they went on to perform acts.

 

So I can interpret .. "we are not justified by faith alone but also by what we do" to mean that this is discussing an outward justification before men. It is the obvious conclusion when it is very clearly stated in other areas that we are justified by faith WITHOUT works (emphasis mine). You would have to deny that scripture to say that works are required for salvation.

 

Anyway its very clear to me.

[auggybendoggy]

Cong,

understood; thats the classic rendering.

 

Problem should be noted that it is reading into the text of "justification before men"...

 

The text clearly relates salvation "can such a faith save a man"

if works are not a requirement then indeed such faith can save a man

but if works are required then it cannot save a man to be without them.

 

Its easy to say we need to interpret scripture with scripture especially where contradiction is threatening. We must do so cause if we accept it our faith falls apart.

 

My problem with your view is it is isogesis to read the text and change what james says to fit your view or other scirpture. I see you see it as very clear but I see it as its only clear if you force it like mormons do.

 

Mormons agree with you. Your works are fruits of true faith. I've had 4 of em in the last year and they all interpret James the same way protestants do. Thus when they say "if you love God you will obey him"

what do we say "NO!"? We agree and say yes but your not saved by your works. They agree. They agree we are saved by grace but their premium of works leads us to interpret them as being a demand for works...they see it as a result of love. Thus we see things the same.

 

I think James meant what he says and it's to question our belief in the law. For if one does not feed his brother then he is a law breaker and does not love and therfore must obey the law in order to show his love.

I do not mean all who do good love but all who love must do good.

for who Loves God but lives a life of evil.

 

James' point is not on works its all about Loving God. His only venture is to say we are justified also by what we do and not by faith alone which paul argues is not the case.

 

I realize were going round and round but I've heard this reason too many times and would like to see more people like luther who calls a spade a spade.

 

Aug

Edited November 16, 2004 by auggybendoggy

[auggybendoggy]

I'd like to expand on this a bit more.

 

When reading the whole passage of James it seems faith is the issue. Faith that is active and faith that is non active is not all that is in question.

 

Congregation,

how would you feel if a pastor stood from the pulpit and proclaimed "so my freinds you see that we are not justified by faith alone by also by what we do?"

 

I would tend to think most christians today would not appreciate it cause it sounds like he's left the "grace alone faith alone" view of Luther.

 

I realize there are many analagous, model, figurative and hypothetical things stated in scripture but I must say I feel it is a FAR reach to try to render James as not meaning what he says in this passage.

 

For if he does not mean "not by faith alone" then his whole point of works perfecting faith is meaningless. In order to hold up the importance or works he exhorts us all to do good that our faith will be made perfect which is exactly what paul seems to point is imposs.

 

Perhaps we should raise up pauls issues now.

 

also cong, I do appreciate you and your opinions. I certainly have heard alot of good things about you and I always give the benefit.

So If I sound like I'm saying "You don't interpret correctly" please understand that is not the case. I am saying this is the way I read it and I love to discuss things that make a difference in my life.

 

I'll go ahead and go over pauls position on the matter and then give my rendition.

 

Thanks aug

[ConGregation]

I think James meant what he says and it's to question our belief in the law. For if one does not feed his brother then he is a law breaker and does not love and therfore must obey the law in order to show his love.

I do not mean all who do good love but all who love must do good.

for who Loves God but lives a life of evil.

 

We can agree on this. That almost sounds like me. "show" being the key word. A dead faith will produce nothing. But works will "show" that you have a living faith.

 

Yeah, we are kind of going round and round. I don't feel it is a FAR reach at all. Paul's statements are just as emphatic as James. "For by grace are ye saved through faith, that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast."

 

I just know that without grace I could never attain unto God. I also know that my works, when compared to Christ's work, are worthless. They are even committed in the flesh which taints them from any true holiness. God calls my 'righteousness' filthy rags. Very much unlike the 'robe of righteousness' he will grant unto me in Heaven.