Laz.e.rus September 8, 2006 Share Laz.e.rus Member September 8, 2006 K I want a soundcard thats good for gaming but really good for recording. Currently looking at M audio and thinking bout the 44. BUT, I really dont know what Im looking for as far as recording. I want to record guitar/mics and mix etc, using software for basslines/percussion etc. o I dont even know what kind of software I need. Also, will I need to go throough my pre-amp first? Or does current recording/mixing software include guitar effects/ mic effects etc? Im clueless...lots of help plz. Also, is there anything else Id need and am unaware of? I dont want to start a $300 project and find out its $1000 to do what I want. That kind of thing. Edit: On afterthought, the delta 44 looks ok for recording, but Id either need to buy a preamp or use my current effects preamp AND ....not a gaming sound card. Its def for recording only....sigh. Help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonymo September 8, 2006 Share anonymo Member September 8, 2006 I'm pretty busy today so I might not be able to answer all of your questions until next week but I can tell you this: you won't find a card thats good for gaming and good for recording. You could go with their "Revolution" cards (5.1 or 7.1) which would give you some middle ground, but you would eventually be unhappy with either the recording aspects or the gaming aspects (probably both). Now, the Delta 44 is an awesome card and will not only make great recordings but it will give you great gaming sound, but without the conventional features of a Creative card (like EAX and Mic input). You could always have 2 sound cards if you have the room and just switch between the two as needed (obviously more expensive) I know that all M-Audio cards have some hardware effects processing but they really aren't anything special and are pretty limited. The cheapest route to go is with software and specifically Pro Tools. There is a demo in that link that should give you an idea of what it's like, just remember the learning curve with Pro Tools (and most music/video editing software) is quite steep. I know it can be expensive but look at it this way. If you go with the cheap consumer based software programs you'll find that their software effect processing capabilities really suck while for a couple hundred dollars more you could have effects that sound nearly professional. In my opinion you'll kick yourself if you go the cheap route when you hear what you could have gotten for just a little bit more. To put things in perspective ProTools Digi002 is just a hair shy of fully professional hardware. I use Cubase as it's much cheaper (much steeper learning curve though). Note that Cubase only has a handful of its own effects which aren't that great. You have to buy VST plugins to get better effects. Pro-Tools has the best "stock" effects in the industry hands down. Hope that helps... Edit: I totally forgot about the M-Box they came out with last year...much better price and might be exactly what you want considering it's firewire external hardware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laz.e.rus September 8, 2006 Author Share Laz.e.rus Member September 8, 2006 wow...more confusing by the moment. M tools/M powered/ protools/Ableton/cubase. There seems to be some correlation between the hard/software too that I dont quite get yet. M -whatever seems to be all about matching the card/preamp/software together for various diff projects. Ableton seems like its the same as protools, accept not as good. Cubase is reviewed as good, but theres no mention at all of the hardware which through me off as the other stuff was ALL about the hardware. More confused than before I think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfly September 8, 2006 Share dragonfly Member September 8, 2006 I was looking at a 16 and 8 channel board and it comes with cubase, which means that some things are built for it specifically. I dont use cubase, i opted for adobe audition because I had used it a bunch before. How many lines are you goign to need to record simultaneously? Some of that stuff you can go through usb, which is waht I was looking at, or you can get an 8 channel one that records on its own built in hdd, then move the files over to your pc. The problem with that is you have to do some tight recording and there's not as much room for splicing pieces ofmusic in. Anonymo knows MUCH more than I do, but I've learned that as far as things like reverb go, the built in effects for the software are usually not bad. However, things like distortion (if you record black metal like me) REALLY SUCKS BAD, and I use my line6 distortion instead. So I guess it also depends on what your objectives are. Like building a computer: dont build a $4000 system to check email with. How good do you actually want it to sound? Cause the best card in teh world cant really make up for bad pickups in your guitar and stuff like that. I feel like I'm using middle of the road stuff, and i'm pretty happy with the sound I get. As for software for basslines/percussion, I just record the bass myself (if you can play guitar you can play bass well enough to record as backup lol) and use a boss dr770 for percussion. You can get samples online (but they wont be great) or buy them and use them to build your percussion with the software. Oh yeah, one more thing: I highly recommend that if you can at all do it, record everythign clean and use plugins to add fx after. That way you dont record w/ guitar and reverb, decide there's too much rev and have to record again with a lower setting. Always try to record clean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laz.e.rus September 9, 2006 Author Share Laz.e.rus Member September 9, 2006 Thx archon, thats one of things I was wondering about...wheter to record clean or not. As far as simultaneous INPUTS, never more than two, prolly jsut one. As far as total tracks though, Im really not sure. We're talking...prolly 2 for perc, 1 bass, 2 minimum guitar tracks, 2 min for vocal. But Id like more jsut in case. 8 min up to 16 Im sure. Dont wanna buy a bass guitar, but I played it for a bit. Know what you mean. Here was my original thinking...any DECENT soundcard up to two inputs. I didnt really think it would matter that much. But then, the mixing/ sampling/ effects/ "fake" add-in instrumentation is was I thought Id really need and what would make the difference. You see, I was under the impression if I got a decent guitar sound IN to the software, I could then work with it till I see fit. But this whole needing special preamps, addons, soundcards, etc is really messin with me. For ex: I was lookin at the fatality simply for the frontal 1/4" jack mounts that come with it. Perfect! I thought. A gaming card that runs standard PC speakers/mics but will accept my guitar. But then Im reading how theres compatiblilty issues between a card and only certain versions of certain recording software....o man. I dont get it. You get a reasonable sound IN ( good dB qual) whats the prob with workin with it AFTER that with the software? Need a preamp? Why cant I use my guitar preamp with the 1/4" or midi or rca outs? Why do I need M-Audios such n such? And then, if I get a good M-audio or something for recording, THEN, jsut to play OUT of my PC, I have to run out of the "special" panel or plug-in what-not to a poweramp, then to standard sound speakers.Nevermind a possible mixer in the process! Um, I dont want $2000 worth of sound hardware to hear css on a $2000 PC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfly September 9, 2006 Share dragonfly Member September 9, 2006 Yup, it definitely gets confusing to be sure. I agree with the whole spending $2000 for sound on a $2000 machine. I think that I am leaning towards buying a little box (cant remember name) that plugs into usb and uses that as an input so that I can get two mic channels through it instead of my card. I also understand about buying a bass guitar - i use my sister's BC Rich Beast so it's free for me. As for the extra plugins and fx, usually the software comes with all you need. I havent bought any card that came with software like that, so I cant comment on the quality at all, though cubase is great I hear. But I went out and bought my own software for about... hmmm... $300 or so, I cant really remember, and that's done just fine for me. Though, that was a little expensive, but it does more than i need it to even. As far as number of tracks, I usually end up with about 14~16 running simultaneously (I think one of my songs is 18). I like to have all my drums programmed but each sound having its own track so that I can change that later if I want to, or simply take a single snare hit out at any point - whatever is easier for changing in the future if you dont like how it sounds, without reprogramming and re-recording. This is what it usually looks like: Guitars: 3-6 tracks Bass: 1 Vocals: 3 or 4 Drums: 7 to 9 I'm really starting to lean towards the X-Fi Platinum to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laz.e.rus September 10, 2006 Author Share Laz.e.rus Member September 10, 2006 bump *(help)* bump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfly September 10, 2006 Share dragonfly Member September 10, 2006 bump*(help)* bump ditto - i could use info too from the pros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonymo September 11, 2006 Share anonymo Member September 11, 2006 *cracks knuckles* Ok...lets see what I can do. Always record everything CLEAN! If you were to record something that you end up really liking and later on you want to make it sound really professional then you can, but if there's already reverb on it or something then you can't do much with it. If you're just doing the "one man band" thing then you really only need one channel input (2 if you intend to record vocals and guitar simultaneously but I doubt you actually will). Here's kind of the progression: 1- Start your preferred program (Cubase, Audition, ProTools) and create an empty track. Plug in your guitar, hit the record/monitor button (so that you can hear your instrument through the programming, note you should not hear anything if you have not hit the record/monitor button in the program) 2- When you are ready hit the Play/Record button (programs vary, but most work like: record/monitor>play to record) to start recording. If you need a tempo track most programs have a built in metronome 3- When finished the first track (ie lead guitar) create a new track for your next instrument. Most programs will allow you to use an unlimited number of tracks which is generally limited to your sound cards capability to play back multiple channels. I'm pretty sure that even the sound blaster lines of cards can easily handle playing back 64 channels no problem. *So for clarity...if your sound card only has one input, you just have to record every part of your song one track at a time, but will still be able to play them back alltogether. Ok so what I'm seeing with you Laz is that you're leaning towards the fatality, which is most likely fine for what you wish to do (If either of you plan to use a MIDI keyboard forget about the Creative cards alltogether, their latency sucks) So basically you'll be able to hook up your guitar and with the right program record away. I recommend either cubase or adobe audition (used to be CoolEdit) for that becuase they are considerably cheaper than the ProTools route (which would require either a ProTools board or an M-Audio card) I also recommend trying both programs out to see which you like the best. I also recommend trying the full version if you can, PM me for more details on where you can try the full versions. Now, for effects, this is where it gets complicated. Soundblaster cards are not going to be able to process your effects that well and doing something like getting Cubase and a bunch of VST plugins will be bottlenecked by the sound card. So what can you do? Well, you can send the signal you want processed out of the sound card to an external piece of hardware like a pedal and then re-record it. I'm not 100% sure this method will work with a SoundBlaster as I've never tested this method (it playing back while recording at the same time...) however if you have a DAT or hardware CD recorder you could use this method that way. Another thing you could do is record everything you want clean then save it all in one file (I know cubase will actually let you save the entire song as one file basically making a zip file with all your individual tracks and timecode information in one file) and take it to a studio where they can process it with professional gear. (btw, you should hear AC/DC songs with no effects processing...its funny!) Ok...what else am I forgetting... Cubase is only software and requires a soundcard, Adobe Audition is the same. ProTools is also software but has it's own hardware to perform all it's functions (it was only recently that M-Audio and Digidesign merged and you could use ProTools on an M-Audio card, before that it was $2000 minimum to be able to use protools) My advice is this: If you are dead serious about your music (regardless of whether it's a hobbie or a career) and don't want to spend more money then you have to, start with a ProTools set up and don't bother with spending money on anything else. However if you're just doing this to make some music and aren't going to be dedicating most of your free time to it then I'd stick with Adobe Audition (easiest to learn) and wither a base M-Audio card or a top end Creative Labs card. You'll still be able to make and produce your music, but will have to seek other sources to achieve a professional sound. I know I've been across the board and back in this post so if you have specific questions don't hesitate to ask, but please do it one at a time (ie not 4-5 questions in one post) and we'll hammer through them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laz.e.rus September 11, 2006 Author Share Laz.e.rus Member September 11, 2006 Thx anon. Question 1: Top end creative vs "other": You mentioned that the creative card CAN be a limiting factor. If I were to go with another card however, are you aware of ANY that will allow standard PC hookups as well? I really dont want to bring in the living room's stereo system and speakers to play CSS w/ or w/o headphones. Do the 5.1/7.1 M-Audio cards have the same limiting factor as the high end creatives? 2nd question but related: Creative offers a few more alternatives than what I had originally thought. Here are some. Can I get your opinion on pros/cons? http://us.creative.com/products/product.as...p;product=14065 http://us.creative.com/products/product.as...lSpecifications http://us.creative.com/products/product.as...p;product=14711 (although for 229 on this last...we're getting into M-Audio price range!) Then this: what Id really like I guess. But at this price for full functionality, I COULD use an M-Audio low-end and BUY a mixer/stereo for speakers! http://us.creative.com/products/product.as...packageContents Although Id still need software..only includes Cubase LE. VS: this guy. http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Delta66-main.html If I got this for only $239, it comes with ableton 4 full free ( which I 'think' is then a free upgrade to 5??). So, Id have the recording end covered until I ever feel the need to buy pro-tools correct? But to use for "standard" PC stuff, I would HAVE to have some sort of seperate powered device to run speakers/headphones. What about gaming mic..compatible or major hassle? Would I still need to buy a special M-Audio preamp type thing? sorry...really was only gonna be one question! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfly September 11, 2006 Share dragonfly Member September 11, 2006 Laz: that platinum is what I'm looking at buying at the moment. The console upgrade kit is so that you dont have the front slot taken up on your case pretty much, and it's only an upgrade kit for the ones that do support it i believe (like the platinum and fatal1ty). It looks to me like the elite pro is starting to get to be a waste of money. That's just my opinion though. Plus I already have Adobe Audition (1.5 i think) so I dont need the software at all really. And I also do really like audition (anonymous, i started with cool edit pro, so i've used the old stuff too). My question: those two-port usb inputs for xlr (i would assume behringer makes some) are they compatible with audition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonymo September 12, 2006 Share anonymo Member September 12, 2006 Ok... Laz It seems that Creative have made big strides to catch up with the semi-professional market as the specs for the X-Fi are comparable to the M-Audio 24/96 and below. The only thing stopping me from recomending them is my lack of experience with them. I used to have a SB Audigy (from 2000) and it couldn't even begin to handle the specs of the X-Fi. Now, if you went with either the 7.1 or the 5.1 Evolution cards from M-Audio, they give you all the standard I/O's that you would find on Creative cards (Mic In/Speakers Out etc.) Also as I'm reading the specs, it turns out that these two cards from M-Audio also support EAX, DirectSound and A3D. Again however, I cannot make a full recomendation as I've never actually used these specific cards. CL Platinum X-FI @ $199 - front bay I/O - remote - requires receiver for 5.1(+) playback - no useful software with bundle M-Audio Revolution 7.1 @ $119 - no front I/O - does not require receiver for full 7.1 surround - only one input at rear and it's 1/8" mini plug (not a huge issue for a hobbiest) - some useful software trials, no full versions M-Audio Delta 44 @ $199 - no conventional mic-in - requires receiver/amp - guarenteed good sound and excellent recording with 4 ins/outs - bundled with Ableton Live Lite 5, perfect for someone just learning or wanting to keep it simple M-Audio Fast Track Studio @ $179 - works with existing sound card setup - offers all the ins/outs for semi-professional musician interested in using guitars - USB external device - comes with Ableton Live Lite 5 - comes with its own Mic - comes with good sounding guitar effects I only noticed the Fast Track Studio this morning. It seems like the way to go if you already have a sound card in your computer to run your games with. You can use it as your primary sound card and hook PC speakers to the headphone jack or use an Amp/receiver with speakers, however you won't have the mic functionality. Just to clarify things in terms of mics...Normal PC headsets have special mics (just about every computer headset is like this) which require they are plugged into a powered "mic-in" to function. I learned this the hard way and was forced to return many pairs of headsets until I learned this. So what this means is that the mic-ins on the X-Fi and the Revolution 7.1 will still work with conventional headsets, however all other M-Audio cards don't have this powered mic-in and would require a standard mic and probably a mixer. When I first got my M-Audio 24/96 it took me a while to figure this out. I eventually just plugged my headphones into my mixer's mic input and was able to use ingame chat with Source that way, but it's a hassle if you don't want to use your headphones in this manner and don't have a conventional mic lying around. I'm not sure if I answered your questions Laz but I'm sure you'll ask some more so go ahead. DarkArchon I'm confused as to what you're asking, but to answer what I think you are asking...Audition will support any input that the soundcard supports, **providing you steer clear of the situation where you are using a phantom powered mic and don't have phantom power on the sound card** (if you guys don't know what phantom power is please just don't worry about it, it really shouldn't concern you at this point and could be confusing, so just ignore) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfly September 12, 2006 Share dragonfly Member September 12, 2006 Ok, I'm pretty sure you answered my question and it will work now. I do need phantom power, and know what it is. I'm using the Behringer B2 Pro as a mic right now. I like it, at least the quality for the price. Got it in a kit w/ a case, holder thingie for the mic stand, and cover for the mic. I bought a screen for the front instead though, they sound much better. Thanks for the help. I think I'll go Platinum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laz.e.rus September 12, 2006 Author Share Laz.e.rus Member September 12, 2006 Mmk. Im gonna try to reword your links with how they apply to ME personaly and you tell me if this correct? Creative Xfi. w/ I-O drive bay - Great for gaming/etc. Use of basic PC speakers ( like the creatives I own) directly on card (my speakers use those 3 hookups for 5.1, then it has flexijack for PC mic on card) - I-O port will accept guitar and recording mic seperately from the card. - BUT..no software at all = more $$$ (live 5 is $600) - Dont know if I can use the card hookups for standard stuff ( mic/speakers) AND I-O port will still work even. Maybe its either/or M-Audio Rev 7.1 - same as above for PC connectivity (spkrs & headset) - Only line level input, so NEED a mixer for guitar/mic. = more $$$ - No software = more $$$ (Live 5 is $600) M-Audio Delta 44 - 1/4" jacks for inputs ( whether guitar or mic?? Will accept either?)- WHY is it selling a mic preamp FOR the 44 below it? more $$$? - 1/4" out = buy poweramp or mixer or both for ANY sound/headphones - No std gaming stuff ( 3d/eax/etc)- games will sound like crap but clear - Lite software included - 4 midi +4 audio trks. Does this mean 4 of me (like 2mic/2guitar) and 4 pre-recorded (like virt bass + 3 percussion)?? Fast Track - same software question as the 44 - Need to buy and use a standard gaming card ($100-130) - Can use mic and 1 instrument/input at same time - No mixer/poweramp etc. Only uses my soundcard for playback. - Includes gt player. Sounds great for guitar but can I record straight from "Player" or is that a prog I need to shut off, then run the Live software seperately for recording? - Since this is sep from the card, are you able to play/record at same time/monitor/ etc? <-- Big issue Id think EDIT: Found this ... will record fine. Express version pretty limited tho : "GT Player works both as a realtime standalone application and VST/AU plugin allowing to use your computer as a powerfull guitar multieffect processor in Nuendo, Cubase, Live, GarageBand and many other VST/AudioUnit compatible host applications."- http://www.shareit.com/product.html?productid=300030117 Express: http://www.dsound1.com/products/gtpexp_en.htm Creative: (maybe card limited) $200+ software(($600?))+ recording mic(??) = $??? Revolution: (maybe card limited) $119 but need software ($600?)+ mixer + mic =$??? Delta 44: $200 + amp + mic (have speakers) + possible "buddy" preamp= $??? Fast Track: $180 + card($80 see below)= $260 total **additional : To later upgrade to Full Live 5 (more than 4+4 tracks) is $229. OR Cubase for $199** Can you review, then help me fill in the blanks for the total price on the first 3 at the end here? Wow, thanks for the help anon!! This is harder than picking out PC parts, at least you have an idea of what each thing does in comparison to other parts! If you read the wrong number with this stuff than OOPS..gotta buy a preamp or diff software or jsut sounds like crap or mic wont work etc! EDIT: so far, Im thinking Fast Track + Audigy 4($99) http://us.creative.com/products/product.as...p;product=14103 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xterminator September 13, 2006 Share Xterminator Member September 13, 2006 As an avid musician and recorder my father has setup a simple studio in our basement. He is using a Delta 44 Card with an Omni 2 channel preamp. I use cubase software for recording. Within it are all the effects i need and more. If you're buying a microphone, dont just get any microphone. Quality means money there are many good mics out there. I have a couple that i love working with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laz.e.rus September 13, 2006 Author Share Laz.e.rus Member September 13, 2006 Oh, if it means anything, I found this pic of my preamp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xterminator September 13, 2006 Share Xterminator Member September 13, 2006 (edited) i can't see you connecting that directly to your computer. this is what i've got. 2 channel preamp with phantom power option if needed (microphones and what not). Inputs are standard quarter inch or XLR. Everything i've recorded so far has been through this machine.\ M-Audio Delta Omni I/O I havn't exactly checked the setup. It's my dad's system. But my Omni is connected directly to the soundcard via a DS cable, not sure if it's 15 pin or what not. Something such as this: Cable Your pre-amp doesn't have any sort of connection except Midi. You can use your preamp, but then you'll have to send it to something else like a mixer or some sort of device that can communicate with your PC. The Omni is an all in one unit. I'm not quite sure but i think your pre-amp might be an effects machine as well. Or maybe it's stricly an effects machine. I see the words delay and decay etc. Edited September 13, 2006 by Xterminator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laz.e.rus September 14, 2006 Author Share Laz.e.rus Member September 14, 2006 stereo out-1/4"x2, direct out, midi out, 1/4"headphone out. Yes, its effects unit primarily, but will pass-thru a straight signal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laz.e.rus September 16, 2006 Author Share Laz.e.rus Member September 16, 2006 help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonymo September 17, 2006 Share anonymo Member September 17, 2006 Sorry laz...been really busy at work yesterday and today... Anyways I've been thinking that the Sound Blaster is what you should get. I figure it suits well enough for the music and is perfect for gaming. You'll probably reach the limits with the music eventually but considering the prices of the cards these days in a year if you find a need to upgrade then it won't cost much. Unless you're really set on the Fast Track and can solve your usb problem. I used my Audigy (the first one) for at least four years before spending the $130 for the 24/96 As far as programs I'm leaning toward Adobe Audition because its a really good start and is basically what I learned on. Dark thats a great mic eh? My buddy in Montreal got one of those just before I left and it sounds great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfly September 17, 2006 Share dragonfly Member September 17, 2006 Anonymo - I LOVE that mic. It can be a little bit too muddy if you compare it to the really good mics I learned on at a "real" studio, but for what I need it's a dream come true! Laz, for the price i recommend this mic too That paired with audition, we'll have identical setups If you go audition I could help a little with it, or anonymo could help with stuff over my head i'm sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laz.e.rus September 17, 2006 Author Share Laz.e.rus Member September 17, 2006 In doing some quick googling on Adobe, I found some odd things. It appears that if I were to buy it outright, its around $350 for 2.0 (ouch). Thats more expensive than cubase. But, you can (it appears) download version 1.5 for free here: http://www.download.com/Adobe-Audition/300...4-10324430.html then upgrade for $129 here?? http://store.adobe.com/store/products/mast...AuditionUpgrade odd doesnt seem right, think Im missing something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfly September 18, 2006 Share dragonfly Member September 18, 2006 (edited) i wish i had known that. If it's not true, then beats me???? I'm sure you'll love whatever you use once you get used to it. Edit: X-Fi platinum was ordered tonight. Should be here soon! Edited September 18, 2006 by DarkArchon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laz.e.rus September 18, 2006 Author Share Laz.e.rus Member September 18, 2006 cool. Then you can be the volunteer guinea pig! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laz.e.rus September 18, 2006 Author Share Laz.e.rus Member September 18, 2006 adobe 2.0 is $350. Cubase is $200. Can you give me any pros/cons about them or vs the price? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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