Comcast Online Support

[Unclean]

So I know some of you enjoy reading tech support chat logs - I've had good luck and bad luck with them. This is probably among the worst. You can tell I get more and more irate as the issue goes on.

 

A little background - I'm getting severe lag in Aion. It's been like this for about a week. In other games, the internet connection works just fine. I was working with Aion's tech support, and they found the issue was with packet loss in three of Comcast's routers/switches, since they would sometimes report big packetlosses (20% or more).

 

Here's the chatlog:

 

user Nick_ has entered room

Nick(13:30:58)> Several hops are experiencing packet loss. Hops showing packet-loss: po-20-ur02.algonquin.il.chicago.comcast.net po-10-ur01.algonquin.il.chicago.comcast.net be-60-ar01.elmhurst.il.chicago.comcast.net

analyst Kevin has entered room

Kevin(13:32:22)> Hello Nick_, Thank you for contacting Comcast Live Chat Support. My name is Kevin. Please give me one moment to review your information.

Kevin(13:32:51)> How are you doing? How may I help you today?

Nick_(12:33:38)> I see that in traceroutes, several hops in your comcast network are experiencing packet loss. I was wondering if you are 1) aware and 2) working on a fix.

Kevin(13:34:03)> I believe this is involving the internet, correct?

Nick_(12:34:20)> Yes

Kevin(13:35:07)> You have actually reached support for cable only.

Kevin(13:35:19)> I will connect you to our internet department

Nick_(12:35:25)> Great, thanks

Kevin(13:35:33)> Anything else before I get you a specialist?

Nick_(12:35:43)> Nope, that should do it

Kevin(13:36:26)> Great. You have a good day, Nick. Please stay online.

Kevin(13:36:55)> Please wait, while the problem is escalated to another analyst

analyst Kevin has left room

analyst Nicole has entered room

Nicole(13:37:37)> How are you today?

Nick_(12:37:53)> Hi Nicole

Nick_(12:38:06)> did Kevin provide you with a chat transcript?

Nicole(13:39:28)> I see you are not able to send emails?

Nick_(12:39:56)> No, he must have sent the wrong transcript

Nick_(12:40:07)> Several comcast hops are showing packet-loss:

po-20-ur02.algonquin.il.chicago.comcast.net

po-10-ur01.algonquin.il.chicago.comcast.net

be-60-ar01.elmhurst.il.chicago.comcast.net

Nick_(12:40:29)> I was wondering if you are 1) aware and 2) working on a fix.

Nicole(13:41:40)> Where are you getting the information?

Nick_(12:41:50)> I used PingPlotter software

Nicole(13:42:34)> May I have your account number to do a health check on the modem

Nicole(13:42:40)> ?

Nick_(12:42:58)> I'm not sure what my account number is - I'm at work now

Nick_(12:43:08)> and I think the account is under my wife's name, same address

Nick_(12:43:53)> When I use PingPlotter without those hops, I do not experience packetloss. So I doubt it's the cable modem anyway

Nicole(13:45:18)> When you refer to hopes are you referring to a router?

Nick_(12:45:39)> Yes - hops are from router to router

Nicole(13:46:05)> Ok, the issue may be with the router.

Nick_(12:46:22)> Right, that's what I'm saying

Nicole(13:46:27)> It could be causing your connection to be intermitted.

Nick_(12:46:27)> there is an issue with your routers

Nicole(13:47:02)> Are you routers leased though comcast?

Nick_(12:47:32)> I think you may have misread my statement

Nick_(12:47:52)> my router is not the issue - in fact, I get the same behavior when I use the cable modem directly

Nick_(12:48:00)> the issue is with yours (as in Comcast's) routers

Nick_(12:48:10)> 3 of your Comcast Routers, to be precise

Nick_(12:49:15)> po-20-ur02 (located in Algonquin)

po-10-ur01 (located in Algonquin)

be-60-ar01 (located in Elmhurst)

Nick_(12:49:20)> I am located in Cary

Nicole(13:50:51)> In order to get a better understanding I need to look at the account.

Nick_(12:51:35)> ok, feel free to do so

Nicole(13:52:04)> I need you account information.

Nick_(12:52:25)> Can we verify with the name on the account, phone number, and address?

Nicole(13:52:59)> May I have the phone number?

Nick_(12:53:08)> 847xxxxxxx

Nick_(12:53:19)> should be under "Karen XXXXX", my wife

Nicole(13:56:26)> The account looks great.

Nicole(13:56:59)> I'm chatting with my floor support, to see whats going on.

Nick_(12:57:53)> Sounds good. Seems like it might be a hardware issue with those 3 routers (or switches) - your floor support would know better

Nicole(13:57:58)> With traceroutes, it's not uncommon to see wholes in the traceroute that didn't respond. Some routers do not respond to pings/tracert.

Nicole(13:58:22)> We are having a hard time understanding the issue.

Nicole(13:58:29)> What's the root of the issue? Why is he doing this test?

Nick_(12:59:06)> Yes, some hops in the traceroute are designed to not return response packets

Nick_(12:59:18)> however, when a hop (such as a router or switch) returns packets sometimes, but not others

Nick_(12:59:23)> that's usually indicative of a hardware problem

Nick_(12:59:53)> I have a meeting now, but I will be back in 45 minutes

Nick_(13:00:05)> Is there a support ticket number that you can assign that I can check on?

Nicole(14:01:30)> I can give you the ticket number that I'm noting the account with.

Nicole(14:07:03)> Are you still with me?

Nicole(14:09:40)> Due to inactivity I will need to close the chat. If you have any more question, please chat back at www.comcast.net. We will be happy to assist you.

Nicole(14:09:42)> Analyst has closed chat and left the room

analyst Nicole has left room

 

 

And then if you don't mind reading a much longer one, it gets worse.

 

user Nick_ has entered room

Nick(14:33:28)> Several hops are experiencing packet loss. Hops showing packet-loss: po-20-ur02.algonquin.il.chicago.comcast.net po-10-ur01.algonquin.il.chicago.comcast.net be-60-ar01.elmhurst.il.chicago.comcast.net

analyst Cathyrine has entered room

Cathyrine(14:41:35)> Hello Nick_, Thank you for contacting Comcast Live Chat Support. My name is Cathyrine. Please give me one moment to review your information.

Cathyrine(14:41:42)> How are you doing today?

Nick_(13:41:47)> hi there

Nick_(13:41:55)> alright - my last support session was disconnected

Cathyrine(14:42:02)> Let ne check on the here connection here in my end for you.

Cathyrine(14:42:04)> May I have your comcast account number, service address and the account holder's name.

Nick_(13:42:26)> It should be under Karen XXX (my wife), XXX, Cary IL 60013

Nick_(13:42:38)> I'm at work, so I don't know the account number

Nick_(13:42:47)> but I do have the phone number on the acct

Nick_(13:42:55)> 847xxxxxxx

Cathyrine(14:43:15)> Thank you very much for that information. Please give me a few moment as I pull up your account.

Nick_(13:44:26)> ok

Cathyrine(14:45:39)> I am currently pinging your modem.

Cathyrine(14:45:44)> Please bea with me.

Nick_(13:45:52)> ok. my modem connects just fine

Nick_(13:46:17)> there's an issue with your routers in Algonquin and Elmhurst.

Nick_(13:46:28)> (routers, could be switches)

Cathyrine(14:46:59)> Does your router give internet connection?

Nick_(13:48:37)> Yes

Nick_(13:48:51)> my router is fine - but I've disconnected the router entirely and connected straight to the computer

Cathyrine(14:49:04)> Okay.

Nick_(13:49:28)> The issue is with 3 of your routers or switches

Cathyrine(14:49:34)> If you are going to connect your pc directly to the modem you need to power cycle your modem and pc.

Cathyrine(14:49:53)> Since your modem does not acknowledge your pc ip address.

Nick_(13:50:16)> that has already been done

Nick_(13:50:29)> I think you may have misread my message

Nick_(13:50:53)> This is not a common request that you probably get

Cathyrine(14:51:06)> You mean did you unplugged your pc form the modem.

Cathyrine(14:51:11)> Then plugged it back.

Nick_(13:51:21)> No. Powercycling is unhooking the power cable

Nick_(13:51:26)> but forget about the cable modem

Cathyrine(14:51:34)> Then unplugged your modem form the electric power then after 2 minutes plugged it back>?

Nick_(13:51:34)> it's not my cable modem or my router

Nick_(13:51:40)> it's not in my house

Nick_(13:51:53)> the problem is not in the entire city of Cary, IL

Cathyrine(14:51:52)> Then after that set the dhcp settings in your pc?

Nick_(13:52:17)> it's not an issue with DHCP, since it's pulling an IP address from Comcast

Cathyrine(14:52:35)> You told me that you disconnect your pc form your router.

Cathyrine(14:52:40)> and plugged it in your modem

Nick_(13:52:56)> Yes, after power cycling it. The internet still works after that

Cathyrine(14:52:57)> may I know exactly what are you trying to do please.

Nick_(13:53:16)> I would like to know what the issue is with 3 comcast routers/switches that are within your network

Nick_(13:53:31)> 2 of your routers/switches are located in Algonquin, IL

Nick_(13:53:42)> 1 is in Elmhurst, IL

Cathyrine(14:54:04)> You mean you swap your modem?

Nick_(13:54:15)> Ok, I feel like you're still trying to troubleshoot an issue on my end

Nick_(13:54:17)> it's not on my end

Cathyrine(14:54:21)> I mean your router in our local office is that what you mean?

Nick_(13:54:27)> not my router

Nick_(13:54:30)> your router

Cathyrine(14:54:39)> Okay.

Cathyrine(14:54:44)> which router is that?

Cathyrine(14:54:52)> Are you the owner of that router?

Nick_(13:54:53)> No

Nick_(13:54:54)> you are

Nick_(13:55:10)> Comcast does not rent out enterprise-grade routers to the best of my knowledge

Cathyrine(14:55:40)> Comcast router are netgear.

Cathyrine(14:56:00)> You can rent router form comcast as well as the modem.

Nick_(13:56:03)> Ok. I assume your routers are in a datacenter

Nick_(13:56:05)> am I correct?

Cathyrine(14:56:19)> It will be your option if the customer will buy a router.

Nick_(13:56:28)> this is not an end-user router we're talking about

Nick_(13:56:34)> you do not rent out this type of router

Cathyrine(14:57:21)> comcast has only one router that we are letting opur customer to rent it form us, that is NETGEAR ROUTER

Nick_(13:57:30)> Ok, that's nice

Nick_(13:57:40)> but I'm not talking about a router that you rented to me, or one that's in my home

Nick_(13:57:45)> I'm talking about one in Comcast's data center

Nick_(13:57:56)> I would get arrested if I tried to access that router that we're talking about

Cathyrine(14:58:44)> In this matter you need to call your local offices since they have all the data of the routers.

Nick_(13:59:23)> So I know that we're talking about the same thing, which routers are you referring to?

Cathyrine(15:01:31)> You would like to know if there is a router in this area there's an issue with your routers in Algonquin and Elmhurst.

Nick_(14:01:45)> yikes

Cathyrine(15:01:46)> May I know what exactly is the issue on that router?

Nick_(14:02:02)> that's what your network technicians will have to find out

Cathyrine(15:02:21)> Okay.

Cathyrine(15:02:34)> In this matter, you need to call the local office in your area.

Cathyrine(15:03:07)> so that we could trace up what router that you are looking for so that we can check it on the system.

Nick_(14:03:23)> Uh

Nick_(14:03:32)> I think it may be easier if I explain how the internet works

Nick_(14:03:44)> The internet is composed of routers and switches

Nick_(14:03:47)> and not just in people's houses

Nick_(14:03:55)> routers connect cities to other cities

Nick_(14:03:58)> in one large network

Nick_(14:04:20)> we'll call these routers in people's homes "little routers" - they're usually owned by people like me

Nick_(14:04:56)> and these other routers that connect cities to cities are owned by ISP's (like Comcast) - we'll call these "big routers", since they cost thousands of dollars and send data from thousands of people

Nick_(14:05:14)> there is a problem with several "big routers"

Nick_(14:05:56)> "big routers" have problems from time to time. usually hardware related - a network card in them goes out

Nick_(14:05:59)> something like that

Nick_(14:06:31)> these "big routers" are in rooms with other "big routers" and servers, and housed in a place called a "data center"

Nick_(14:08:48)> are you with me?

Cathyrine(15:09:00)> I am here for you.

Nick_(14:09:18)> great. so there is a problem with three of your "big routers"

Cathyrine(15:09:56)> I understand your issue now.

Nick_(14:10:23)> Cool. this isn't a normal request you usually get

Cathyrine(15:10:48)> I have check it here in our system, there is no problem with your connection or the big router.

Nick_(14:11:18)> There is no problem with my connection, yes

Nick_(14:11:26)> But there is an issue with the big router

Nick_(14:11:31)> it started happening about a week ago

Cathyrine(15:11:45)> No, what I mean with whole comcast internet connection.

Cathyrine(15:11:54)> not only your connection.

Nick_(14:13:11)> Ah, but there is

Cathyrine(15:13:20)> There were no reports of any outage. In our comcast connection.

Nick_(14:13:28)> It's not an outage

Nick_(14:13:44)> packet loss means some packets go through, others get lost and have to be re-sent

Nick_(14:13:50)> so the routers will seem operational

Cathyrine(15:13:55)> yes I understand that.

Nick_(14:14:30)> Wait - this may mean that no one has reported it yet

Nick_(14:14:41)> But you can verify

Nick_(14:14:54)> Just do a traceroute that uses one of those three routers/switches

Nick_(14:14:58)> and watch for packetloss

Cathyrine(15:15:04)> I am doing a trace router here in my end.

Nick_(14:16:34)> May I ask what software you are using for your trace route?

Cathyrine(15:17:04)> Nick, I am using our comcast tool.

Nick_(14:17:33)> May I ask some technical questions about the comcast tool you are using?

Cathyrine(15:18:05)> I can see it here that your modem is off.

Cathyrine(15:18:24)> May you please unplugged and replugged it again after 2 minutes.

Cathyrine(15:18:33)> We need to do this so that your issue will be fixed

Nick_(14:18:51)> I'm not at home. Maybe there was a power outage at home

Nick_(14:19:01)> you're not trying to troubleshoot my "little router" again, are you? smile

Cathyrine(15:19:08)> No,. the problem is with your modem.

Cathyrine(15:19:20)> It is not plugged in.

Cathyrine(15:19:35)> Let me explain this to you.

Cathyrine(15:20:00)> Our main source gives internet connection to your little router.

Nick_(14:20:25)> Your main source meaning your "central office"

Cathyrine(15:20:25)> Now, it will not give you the full internet connection if your little is not plugged in.

Nick_(14:20:43)> It will give 0 internet connection

Nick_(14:20:54)> but as you can see, we're still typing to eachother. so clearly I'm not using it right now

Cathyrine(15:20:53)> I have check it here in our system that we do not have any issue with your connection

Cathyrine(15:21:30)> The problem here is not with the whole comcast internet connection or the big router.

Cathyrine(15:21:55)> the problem is with your little router since it is off.

Nick_(14:22:21)> Well, let's say my entire house blew up

Nick_(14:22:30)> while it would be unfortunate, it wouldn't fix this issue

Nick_(14:22:58)> since I can connect to the internet just fine.

Nick_(14:23:13)> whether my home just had a power outage or not is inconsequential here

Nick_(14:23:58)> You said you used your comcast tool to check the "big routers", right?

Nick_(14:24:45)> How many packets were sent/received from the big router during your test, and what was the number of retransmit packets?

Nick_(14:29:14)> hello?

Cathyrine(15:29:48)> I am working on this for you.

Nick_(14:30:39)> ok

Nick_(14:31:00)> and when you're done Cathyrine, can I get your Comcast employee number?

Cathyrine(15:32:12)> Nick, I need you to plugged in your modem so that I can ping your modem.

Cathyrine(15:32:23)> I can see that your modem is off.

Cathyrine(15:32:46)> Pinging our big router it should be our engineer who is going to do that.

Nick_(14:32:58)> Oops, not pinging it

Cathyrine(15:33:03)> We can only ping and do trace route into your modem.

Nick_(14:33:04)> pings will return

Cathyrine(15:33:09)> Trace router

Cathyrine(15:33:13)> trace route

Nick_(14:33:30)> see, your ping and trace route to my connection at home won't tell you anything if it doesn't use those "big routers"

Nick_(14:33:42)> especially if it uses other "big routers" to get to my "little router"

Cathyrine(15:34:39)> Here in my end cannot do that it will be our engineer who's monitoring our internet connection form the main source.

Cathyrine(15:34:57)> If they will see a problem, that is the time that they will report to us.

Cathyrine(15:35:20)> I can see it here that there is no report for any issue with your internet conneciton.

Nick_(14:35:26)> Right

Nick_(14:35:31)> I never reported an issue with my internet connection

Cathyrine(15:35:41)> I advise you to call our local office that is near in your area.

Nick_(14:35:51)> Yikes

Cathyrine(15:36:05)> Yes you are questioning the whole connection of comcast.

Nick_(14:36:15)> No I'm not

Nick_(14:36:29)> 99.9% of comcast's connection could be perfect

Nick_(14:37:36)> What have you asked the network engineer to monitor?

Nick_(14:37:53)> this is very important, since asking the engineer the wrong thing could delay the resolution

Cathyrine(15:38:52)> To get this information, you need to call our local office.

Nick_(14:39:31)> How would the local office know what you asked them?

Nick_(14:39:38)> Especially since I don't have your employee number?

Cathyrine(15:39:59)> Here are the address to your local office

Cathyrine(15:40:00)> 1. Comcast Carpentersville

Address: Hours:

300 Carpenter Blvd

Carpentersville, IL 60110

Phone: 866-594-1234 Mon-Fri 9am-6pm Sat 9am-1pm.

Cathyrine(15:40:05)> 2. Comcast Carpentersville

Address: Hours:

300 Carpenter Blvd

Carpentersville, IL 60110

Phone: 866-594-1234 Mon-Fri 9am-6pm Sat 9am-1pm.

Cathyrine(15:40:10)> 3. Comcast Rolling Meadows

Address: Hours:

1575 Rohlwing Road

Rolling Meadows, IL 60008

Phone: 866-594-1234 Mon-Fri 9am-6pm, Sat 9am-1pm.

Nick_(14:40:20)> I'm laughing thinking about that conversation - "So Cathyrine said she asked you something. What was it?"

Cathyrine(15:40:26)> I do not have the tools here to process this for you.

Cathyrine(15:40:59)> My tools here is for troubleshooting your internet connection.

Nick_(14:41:13)> You can create support tickets and route them to engineers, correct?

analyst Cathyrine has been temporarily disconnected. Please wait while the analyst attempts to reconnect.

analyst Cathyrine has entered room

Nick_(14:45:04)> There you are. Looks like you disconnected for a second

Nick_(14:45:10)> what's your employee number, Cathyrine?

analyst Cathyrine has been temporarily disconnected. Please wait while the analyst attempts to reconnect.

[ZeroDamage]

Reading that tinkled me off. Edit out your personal information such as phone number and address. I may link it from other places.

[stutters]

i'm going to skip past the logs and tell you to stop whining

 

i've got RCN in chicago -- a real, real gem. their model is to strike exclusive deals with high rise buildings in dc, chicago, and a few other major markets. pretty sweet, right? right. on a daily basis, i have > 50% packet loss...and not just to my favorite gaming server. on a daily basis, i'm talking to their senior network engineers. on a daily basis, they assure me that 1) they can confirm the problem 2) they can resolve the problem 3) it shouldn't be a problem again and 4) they've recorded the problem. #4 is my favorite, primarily on the fact that on a daily basis, i'm told 5) they can't find any record of the problem or of me calling. cool...it's only been the last 3 weeks.

 

i suppose i could be hallucinating, but i also just hallucinated calling at&t to switch to dsl...which i never would have thought i would have done again in my lifetime.

 

 

although, lol @ "little internet router."

 

when i had comcast in MN, a phone call to tech support usually got things fixed pretty quick. why the preference to online chat...especially considering your long (al beit comical) history with it?

[LoveForPriscillaChan]

you should really edit out your name/address/phone number/etc

 

btw, i think you were wrong on one occasion:

 

"Nick_(Mon Nov 16 2009 14:03:44)> The internet is composed of routers and switches"

 

No, the internet is a series of tubes.

[dragonfly]

btw, i think you were wrong on one occasion:

 

"Nick_(Mon Nov 16 2009 14:03:44)> The internet is composed of routers and switches"

 

No, the internet is a series of tubes.

 

Hahahaha! I laughed for a while when I read this.

 

Unclean, I'm sorry to hear you've had to deal with this stuff, but look on the bright side... if you can find it.

[Unclean]

Oh man! Thought I edited out all of that info - maybe I just thought about it. "Hmm, it'd be a good idea to edit out that personal information". *post*

 

I removed that personal info, and also cleaned up the chatlogs so they're easier to read.

 

@SJ - you sound like "The Topper" from Dilbert. "20% packetloss? That's nothing! I've got 50% packetloss and I have to handwrite each packet and snail mail it to the router!"

 

@LFPC - haha, forgot about that way better explanation.

[anonymo]

Kevin(13:34:03)> I believe this is involving the internet, correct?

 

Started laughing uncontrollably at this juncture.

 

Now crying.

 

Obviously ISPs have nothing set up to deal with "people like you"

 

Oh, did you try power cycling your router? I bet that solves your internet connection problem.

[Unclean]

Ok, powercycling my router fixed Comcast's infrastructure. Mo, I wish you or someone else told me to do that earlier!

[anonymo]

Ok, powercycling my router fixed Comcast's infrastructure. Mo, I wish you or someone else told me to do that earlier!

 

I know, I'm a tech support genius.

 

Just be glad that worked and you didn't have to bend a paperclip all out of shape.

 

But really...I need to have a similar conversation with my ISP...have had to for the last 3 years and I dread it. Mostly because I know it will take more time than it's worth, as well as I hate talking on the phone.

[NOFX]

Just asked to be transfered to a higher level of tech support.

[anonymo]

Just asked to be transfered to a higher level of tech support.

 

There is no level of tech support available to deal with this issue. The only people with the knowledge of what Unclean is talking about are field technicians, and their time is way too expensive to go anywhere near a customer, let alone the call center.

 

At least that's my experience with ISPs (albeit all Canadian ones).

 

Actually this might make one hell of an article. If you could manage to some how get a hold of the very top level support tech on Comcast's phone system and ask them a series of basic (to us) questions, I wonder how they would fare?

[ZeroDamage]

Actually, the tech support rep Unclean talked to most likely has never seen the inside of a Comcast office. He/She is most likely a contract worker training in a few hours time how to read scripts from a poorly designed Intranet website. How do I know this? I did this sort of work and believe me, the number of people who barely know how to use the work computer they are sitting at way outnumber the number of people who actually know what they are talking about.

[Unclean]

There's an odd twist to this issue now...

 

I called up support and asked to speak to a Sr. level technician. They still tried to do some troubleshooting, but I insisted they transfer me. The sr tech seemed to know what he was talking about. He asked me to do a full reset of the modem, which I did. We then had to go through the entire process of provisioning the modem to work with the Comcast network again. He sent some remote configurations, and said my modem shouldn't be using that route anymore. I did another trace to the Aion server, and sure enough, it skips those 3 routers. And no more lag!

 

So here we are with an issue that's resolved for me, but not necessarily for other people. I can only hope the sr tech also had a field engineer check out those 3 routers to see what's going on with them.

 

I guess I should have just called 'em up in the first place. I was at work when this started, so I couldn't call without tipping people off that I wasn't actually working during the day.

 

@ZD - you're an insider then! You have to share some stories. How do these people get hired in the first place? What do they do when their script fails them? etc

[ZeroDamage]

 

@ZD - you're an insider then! You have to share some stories. How do these people get hired in the first place? What do they do when their script fails them? etc

 

 

They get hired because there is a demand for these positions to be filled. The more people filling the position, the more the contract pays the company. There is also a huge gap in the need for knowledge people and the number of knowledgeable people available and willing to work the job. You get paid based on how quickly you can end the call while hitting on the necessary points. Example: The solution given is relevant to the problem. If someone calls in and says their email is not working and you fail to ask the necessary questions such as: can you open a webpage and it load correctly? Maybe the problem is the connection itself and not necessarily the email. You give out the trouble ticket number and speak the appropriate closings, etc. If you can do all of this with a polite yet knowledgeable tone and are able to end the call in a timely manner, you win. It doesn't matter if you actually solved the problem or not. The call center or contractor gets paid on call volume into that call center. Give the customer a fix, have them restart and try connecting again (easier if the service you are supporting is dial up and they are talking on the phone line needed to dial up) and call back if the solution is not resolved.

 

It is also wise to ask for a supervisor within 3 minutes if the person you are talking to at level-1 is an idiot which will be the case most of the time.

[anonymo]

Holy crap! That's amazing Unclean...I wonder if he has any relatives up here...