Evolution Vs Creation

[Hambone]

You make a mistake that a lot of people tend to make here. I say that Hate is more powerful than Love, and that it is the first of emotions. It sure is. Does that mean I am hateful? Because I hold this theory will my life be any less full of joy than yours? You err in your judgement, methinks.

 

As for the Civil War. The argument "you weren't there" was brought up by you, I believe. I wasn't there at the time of early planetary formation, so how do I know it happened? I wasn't there at the Civil War so how do I know it happened? The Civil War is well documented. So is Creation, according to the Bible. So why are people skeptics about the Bible but not the Civil War? Both were recorded. Neither of us were present at either. Did either of them exist? Did one?

 

hahaha..1 generation? lol

What's so funny?

 

Nature sure as hell is constant. You can always count on nature. You think just because things mutate that nature isn't constant? Simple laws govern nature. Cells respire, everything that is born dies, humans don't suddenly live for 600 years. If a tree falls in the wood, and no one hears it, does it make a sound? Yes, yes it does. You can talk all day about theory and but you weren't there, but when a tree strikes the ground, it makes a sound. Regardless of its audience. Mutation is part of nature's rules. Nature is constant.

[ConGregation]

Again you should read the Bible, Hambone. No since refuting something you havent read

 

The reason Soul laughed at the one generation is because it wasnt one generation. From Adam to Noah everyone lived long lives with Methuselah being the longest. After the flood the life span dropped down to about normal. I have read some articles with real science describing why they think man lived longer before the flood. Might link to it sometime if I ever see it.

 

I see your arguments for nature being constant. But I dont know about them. Mutations are random and lucky. There is no constancy about them that I can see. Has anyone studied this? I said once in this thread that evolution was random luck. You didnt agree to that either But Im still not convinced... Take the eye example. It was pretty random luck that a mutation developed a light sensory object. There was no design. Just a lucky mutation that enabled an organ that could interpret light. I still find it lucky and random.

 

I understand survival of the fittest but you have to get pretty lucky FIRST just to have the thing that makes you the fittest.

 

... Boy I am enjoying these discussions soo much more since we stopped the attitude.

[Hambone]

Mutations all have causes though. They can be accounted for, you can say "there, that radiation caused the mutation" or "there, that misplaced DNA monomer caused by absorbing a plasmid cause the mutation". The statement "Nature is constant" also includes things such as waters don't suddenly rise to extreme levels, then dissapate in a precise amount of time. I'm extremely curious to read about humans living longer back in the olden days. Because evolutionary theory makes them develop longer lifespans gradually. Hit me with something when you find it sir.

 

Part of evolution is luck. Luck has plenty of time to do its thing over 3 billion years though. Luck isn't everything though. Organisms develop based on their enviroment. Luck has a lot to do with lower organisms, but things tend to be deliberate in higher organisms.

[ConGregation]

Try this one.

 

Its not the same as the stuff I have read before. Completely different theory. But I saw so I linked it.

 

For the most part I have read after young-earth creationists but this is old-earth creationism.

[Hambone]

Interesting article. I can't argue with most of the things they say, I've never heard of a lot of it, and I'm no phd, I'm a teenager. I don't like how they left out the concept of collogens though. 600 or 900 year life, whatever Noah lived, wouldn't be pleasant with no skin elasticity. Also, it mentions a supernova explosion that I've never heard of that could have reduced life expectancy. It gave the timeframe as 20,000 to 30,000 years ago, but I was under the impression the flood allegedly occured about 4000 years ago?

A major astronomical event provides a partial explanation for how God may have acted to reduce the long pre-Flood human life spans. Cosmic radiation is one of the main factors that limits human life expectancy. The cosmic radiation coming down to Earth has not been uniform through time, and in fact, most of the deadliest cosmic radiation Earth experiences comes from a fairly recent and nearby (1300 light years away) event, the Vela supernova (A supernova is a rare celestial phenomenon, the explosion of most of the material in a star). About 20,000 to 30,000 years ago (roughly the time of the Genesis flood), the Vela supernova erupted.39, 40

 

One other thing, which they tried to not talk about alot. They highlighted the success of extending the lifespan of fruit flies, and worms. And individual human cells. Humans are not related to fruit flies, or worms. And individual cells versus organism is day and night. Cells specialize. You can extend the life of a muscle cell, but would the same thing work for, say a neuron, which is shaped completely differently? Or a brain cell? Cell specialization is another product of evolution, according to evolutionary theory. Although they are all "human" cells, their structure, function, organelles, location, and origin are all vastly different. Overall good article, but the authors avoid a few topics.

[Cyklik]

My goodness this thread develops quickly. I have 1 full day of classes, and look what's been posted, almost a whole page! Anyhow, I didn't make this stuff up about hyperbarics, I think I just used the wrong word when I said Ozone. I'm not positive, because I haven't researched it much. But anyhow, the word used on this site is pressurized oxygen. Check this out, it's interesting and informative, even if it doesn't help this debate. http://www.hypertc.com/abouthypernew.html

[Cyklik]

There are also reasons why higher animals don't reproduce asexually, but I don't know all of them.

Genetic variation is favored as it leads to mutations. Mutations are the driving force behind microevolution. =)

[Cyklik]

Life expectancy of humans doesn't suddenly increase 12-fold and then revert back to normal for 1 generation.

Look in Genesis. Look where it starts the whole, "Adam begot Seth" shpiel (hahaha sp?). In there it says that Adam (our first man) lived 930 some odd years. And everyone up till Noah lived for a loooooooong time. Only after God says He is limiting the lifespan do we see the shorter and shorter lives of men. Noah wasn't the only guy living that long. Read the Bible a little more Hammy, it's pretty cool.

 

Also, when you said that nature is constant, and here is where we just can't agree, but I believe that God is above nature. If He created it, He has dominion over it. He can manipulate things. So who's to say that living 900 years isn't normal, but that God changed the environment and the way our bodies work to give a scientific answer to why we age and die like we do. Just a thought. But it all comes down to whether or not you believe the Bible or not on this question.

[soul .gc]

Ham--equating the documentation of the Civil war to the documentation of the creation of the Earth is a far cry from fair. The only one around then was God and his possie. So, I was not there, you were not there, no one was friggin there for milions of years. So to equate the recorded history of the Civil War to recorded history of creation is just wrong.

 

As to why I laughed about 1 generation......we were talking about Noah and his 600 year life who died thousands of years ago and I said how about if Aging evolved in man since the beginning of time. Then you throw in a comment about how aging just changes in 1 generation...I never said that or implied that.

 

Love is more powerful then Hate and comes first in a humans development.

 

Now...as to Nature is Constant.....I would like to thank you for proving yourself wrong. "Part of evolution is luck." Luck is not a constant. So, thanks again for that.

 

 

You also say, "Humans are not related to fruit flies, or worms.". I was under the impression that everything on the planet evolved from the same organism. Is this not true? Did worms and flies evolve differently? Was there more then one type of amoeba at first?

[Nitemare]

I can't believe such a "knowledgeable" scientist as you has never heard of the compound 03, hambone. Oxygen in a more pure form.....one of the greatest discoveries of recent history that offers an explanation that support the Bible and yet somehow you miss it. How odd...

[Nitemare]

WARNING LONG POST!!!!

 

 

To answer the question of "Why, when god created only one man and one woman, would incest not run rampant?"

 

Genesis 5

 

 

From Adam to Noah

 

1 This is the written account of Adam's line.

 

When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female and blessed them. And when they were created, he called them "man. [1] "

3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. 4 After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. 5 Altogether, Adam lived 930 years, and then he died.

6 When Seth had lived 105 years, he became the father [2] of Enosh. 7 And after he became the father of Enosh, Seth lived 807 years and had other sons and daughters. 8 Altogether, Seth lived 912 years, and then he died.

9 When Enosh had lived 90 years, he became the father of Kenan. 10 And after he became the father of Kenan, Enosh lived 815 years and had other sons and daughters. 11 Altogether, Enosh lived 905 years, and then he died.

12 When Kenan had lived 70 years, he became the father of Mahalalel. 13 And after he became the father of Mahalalel, Kenan lived 840 years and had other sons and daughters. 14 Altogether, Kenan lived 910 years, and then he died.

15 When Mahalalel had lived 65 years, he became the father of Jared. 16 And after he became the father of Jared, Mahalalel lived 830 years and had other sons and daughters. 17 Altogether, Mahalalel lived 895 years, and then he died.

18 When Jared had lived 162 years, he became the father of Enoch. 19 And after he became the father of Enoch, Jared lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. 20 Altogether, Jared lived 962 years, and then he died.

21 When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah. 22 And after he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. 23 Altogether, Enoch lived 365 years. 24 Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

25 When Methuselah had lived 187 years, he became the father of Lamech. 26 And after he became the father of Lamech, Methuselah lived 782 years and had other sons and daughters. 27 Altogether, Methuselah lived 969 years, and then he died.

28 When Lamech had lived 182 years, he had a son. 29 He named him Noah [3] and said, "He will comfort us in the labor and painful toil of our hands caused by the ground the LORD has cursed." 30 After Noah was born, Lamech lived 595 years and had other sons and daughters. 31 Altogether, Lamech lived 777 years, and then he died.

32 After Noah was 500 years old, he became the father of Shem, Ham and Japheth.

**************************************

 

Notice how there is no mention of men marrying the daughters of man...they just become fathers.

 

**************************************

Genesis 6

 

 

The Flood

 

1 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with [1] man forever, for he is mortal [2] ; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days-and also afterward-when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

*************************************

 

Ahh, so they didn't have children with the daughters of men. Well then, that answers the question of whether it was reproduction by mass incest...but where then did all the women come from that gave birth to these children.

 

Alas, I have no answer but to speculate that god presented them much like he presented Eve.

[Fatty]

Hambone, have a job for you: Need MCC rules rewritten thoroughly with updated rules. You want the job? I'm being serious.

[Hambone]

Send me a PM and I wouldn't mind. I could make a flash out of the rules

 

Ok, now back to a couple things. Nitemare. O3 is not Oxygen in a purer form. O, plain old O is oxygen in a pure form. O2 is also a pure form. O3 is no more pure. The one major difference is that humans can use diatomic oxygen, O2. Humans can not breath O3. Ozone, in high quanity kills humans, it is a toxin. I have heard of ozone. It's not a pretty thing in the troposphere. If you still doubt this, after reading that O3 link I sent you, then ask further and I'll explain the aerobic pathway completely for you.

 

Erm, Soul. If you were under the impression that everything evolved from the same organism, you were greatly decieved. Every organism we have on the modern planet, except extremely old surviving organisms from ancient days, are the product of millinea of seperate lines of evolution. You don't understand that is why evolution seems so unrealistic. If you have a picture of your mind of an amoeba turning into a monkey turning into a man, please get rid of that now. I'm still baffled why you treat the amoeba as a sacred organism in evolution. It's just a little amoeba. Yes, they are all quite clearly different. Every amoeba is different. Every human is different.

 

You think just because there is an element of luck means nature is not constant? You misunderstand entirely. Luck means that an archaebacteria runs across a plasmid that it can express as a membranous pore, or doesn't. Nature is governed by rules. There rules do not change, period. That's what it means to say nature is constant. You're entirely incorrect to say that an element of evolutionary luck disproves this. A law governing prokaryotic cells says they can absorb plasmids from their enviroments. One might absorb a different one than the other. How? Sheer luck, probability. It doesn't matter. You need to reevaluate this concept. The best way I can illustrate this is with the old tree in the wood expression. If a tree falls in the wood, and no one hears it, it still makes a sound. It does not matter that no one could have heard it. There's nothing spontaneous that drops the decibels of a monstrous tree to 0 just because no human is around. Nature is constant.

 

I never even knew the story of Noah, or the fact about monstrous human ages, until reading this page of this thread. But they strengthen my beliefs, unfortunately. Any scientific explanation for why humans could live longer has one notable downfall. As that article ConGregation posted said, certain things apparently make human cells live longer, or other animalian cells live longer. One point here is that cells and organisms are vastly different levels, so it's extremely dubious that being able to alter around a trivial cell will alter an organisms life span. But God also says that humans can't live longer than 120 years now. Well, all these studies that show signs of extending human age are all done on modern humans. Why can't these be simulated? If a human were to be bred with all those specifics, he would blow the 120 year barrier away, despite the limit imposed by God.

 

Here's a question from awhile back that no one answered. Again, this is to anyone. Why do humans have to assign a beginning and end to everything? Is it impossible that matter has always existed, in the voids of infinity? Beginning and End are human concepts. -edit- On a cosmic scale.

[soul .gc]

Ham...what did we evolve from then? It had to be some form of Amoeba or bacteria that started it all. There could have been some on the ground (doubtful), most likely it was from the water. That is exactly why I say evolution is not the whole answer....creationism is and then it worked hand in hand with evolution. Or are you saying that spontaneously a mammal appeared or a fish appeared?

 

Nature cannot be constant - Mathematical FACT. Anytime there is an outside factor then it is NO constant. Even you have to admit that. Which laws are always constant, please provide some examples.

 

As far as extending Human life...we will see. I have not seen anyone live past 120 years in recorded history yet. As far as you wanting scientific explanations of why they lived longer...I cannot provide any except to say...it takes to faith to believe it the same as you have faith to disbelieve it.

 

As to your question on a beginning and an end. Do you not believe our planet will die? What about the Sun? Suns die every day. If we could see Supernovas with the naked eye throughout the universes we would see one explode every minute. Our planet and life could end today, tomorrow, anytime at all. Did you know that there are thousands of comets in our galaxy that are civilization and planet killers? Recently a comet went by our planet less then 500,000 miles away..it was big enough to wipe out all life on the planet....the real scary part is that no one knew it until 3 days after it missed us.

[Hambone]

Amoeba or bacteria. Wow. These organisms are vastly different. You use the terms interchangably. This is not so. It wasn't most likely from water, it was from water. A mammal or a fish spontaneously appeared? No way! That's not plausible. When a fish or a mammal spontaneously appears, it's God doing something. But this is not how evolution occured. I'd like to direct you back to Oparin's Theory, Endosymbiosis, Phagocytosis, and the idea of plasmids. I've detailed them all thoroughly, don't make me do it again .

 

Nature is constant, that's a fact. An outside factor? What is outside of nature, do tell. I'm on the defense here, I believe you're the one obligated to provide me with examples. As for laws that are constant, there I will provide. All mass attracts other mass, something we call gravity. Mass is a measure of resistance to a change in motion. When a prokaryotic cell absorbs a plasmid, it will express it if possible. Heterotrophs eat other organisms. These are facts. These do not change. Nature is constant. If you think you can provide me with something where it is not, please do so.

 

You say you have not seen a person live past 120 years in recorded history. Well, the first thing that pops into my head is the Bible. Or is the Bible not history? And if you equate faith in something contemporarily implausible with faith in reality, you err.

 

As to your question on a beginning and an end. Do you not believe our planet will die? What about the Sun? Suns die every day. If we could see Supernovas with the naked eye throughout the universes we would see one explode every minute. Our planet and life could end today, tomorrow, anytime at all. Did you know that there are thousands of comets in our galaxy that are civilization and planet killers? Recently a comet went by our planet less then 500,000 miles away..it was big enough to wipe out all life on the planet....the real scary part is that no one knew it until 3 days after it missed us.

 

That's all well and good. It doesn't have much to do with beginnings and ends though. There are beginning and ends to certain events. Our earth, for example, had a beginning. It won't have an end, however. When the sun goes nova over the next severel eons, life on Earth will have died long ago. The Earth lives on, with or without us. We know this because nature is constant. You say civilizations are destroyed every minute? Less. Far less. Infinitely less. The concept of infinity still eludes your arguments. The universe has no end. If you try to picture this in your head geometrically then you don't understand it. There are no bounds. There are no limits. Somewhere, there is a planet in a galaxy in a universe where everything corresponded exactly to our planet. But the man we call Jesus was never born. There is another planet where everything corresponds exactly, but I accidently made a typo in this sentence. In one universe I corrected it. In another, following that point everything is different. A cows tongue is blue in some universe, but everything else is the same. That's infinity. Anything you can think of exists. You talk about Earth and the Heavens etc... fine. I asked for cosmic beginnings though. The human mind can't fathom this, yet. That's why Creationism and the concept of a God exists. But that's equally unfathomable, if I'm not mistaken. We can't fully understand how God works, or his omnipotence. Somewhere in human existence, we picked God instead of matter perpetual. It's an interesting thing to ponder.

[soul .gc]

I only used the terms as an example of a beginning for Evolution. In my opinion there is no way we evolved that way.

 

Yet again we go back to Nature. Nature is not constant. Some of the laws of nature are constant. If Nature were constant we would not have trees with 2 trunks, we would not have more then one species of birds, you would not be able to breed a new race of dog, etc....If things were constant there would be no room for change or luck. If you want to say most of Natures laws are constant that is fine....but Nature, itself, is not a constant and never will be.

 

In my opinion the Bible is not recorded history in the Beginning. I believe that is summation from God as told to Moses. So I do not count that as recorded history since it was relayed as Word of Mouth. One other point I will stick in also back to Bob's comment on the flood. I believe the flood only happened in one part of the world. I believe it was at the Black Sea and surrounding countries, which did flood and stay mostly flooded for many years. I can go further on this but will leave it for now.

 

No Ham...as to your viewing of the Sci-fi channel. You are talking about parallel universes. You are describing what happens when I wake up and brush my teeth today here...but yet in Universe_02 I did not, in universe_03 I only brushed half as long, in Universe_04 I had sex while brushing my teeth....on and on. Let me know when you come up with the worm-hole device so we can go travel these universes.....I think Fox had a good show about just this subject.

 

As to an end to the Earth when the Sun goes SuperNova....it will End. That is fact. The planet will be vaporized in the explosion. As to no bounds or limits...that is wrong. The universe is constantly expanding. It is expanding slowly outwards over time. We did not pick God, he picked us, as well as created us.

 

As unfathomable as God sounds to you and the idea of heaven...the idea we all evolved from a tiny, microscopic piece of water garbage is even more unbelievable to me.

[Hambone]

Yet again we go back to Nature. Nature is not constant. Some of the laws of nature are constant. If Nature were constant we would not have trees with 2 trunks, we would not have more then one species of birds, you would not be able to breed a new race of dog, etc....If things were constant there would be no room for change or luck. If you want to say most of Natures laws are constant that is fine....but Nature, itself, is not a constant and never will be.

You aren't refuting anything here. These are not facts that are inconsistent with nature's constancy. Constant describes the nature of nature, so to speak. You take it to mean that nothing every changes. I hope you just misinterpreted the meaning of the word.

In my opinion the Bible is not recorded history in the Beginning. I believe that is summation from God as told to Moses. So I do not count that as recorded history since it was relayed as Word of Mouth. One other point I will stick in also back to Bob's comment on the flood. I believe the flood only happened in one part of the world. I believe it was at the Black Sea and surrounding countries, which did flood and stay mostly flooded for many years. I can go further on this but will leave it for now.

What makes you believe that though? The Bible sure doesn't help you out at all. It was a global flood, according to the Bible. You're picking parts of the Bible you want to believe and leaving out the parts that you don't.

No Ham...as to your viewing of the Sci-fi channel. You are talking about parallel universes. You are describing what happens when I wake up and brush my teeth today here...but yet in Universe_02 I did not, in universe_03 I only brushed half as long, in Universe_04 I had sex while brushing my teeth....on and on. Let me know when you come up with the worm-hole device so we can go travel these universes.....I think Fox had a good show about just this subject.

This is not Sci-Fi, these are continuous with the idea of infinity. Infinity can not be fully contemplated by humans. You picked 4 little seperate incidents, but there are infinite ones. In Universe_05 there's one less hydrogen molecule in the room. You don't completely understand infinity, and no human mind can. Until we evolve more at least.

As to an end to the Earth when the Sun goes SuperNova....it will End. That is fact. The planet will be vaporized in the explosion. As to no bounds or limits...that is wrong. The universe is constantly expanding. It is expanding slowly outwards over time. We did not pick God, he picked us, as well as created us.

The Earth is nothing. We are less than a molecule in a mol. The Earth ends, but it really doesn't matter. The planet will not be turned into vapor. As the sun undergoes its last destructive eons, life on Earth will have been far over, over a millienia ago. Time does not exist in the Universe. The fact that humans try to measure the universe based on our totally inconsequential planet orbiting a meaningless star is pure weakness. It's fine for our day to day life. It means nothing in infinity. Time is also a very human idea. We did pick God. Don't ever mistake this. Because God is something intangible, like the soul, it is something we create in our minds. We picked God, over the idea of perpetualness. Humans choose to have Gods. It's religion.

As unfathomable as God sounds to you and the idea of heaven...the idea we all evolved from a tiny, microscopic piece of water garbage is even more unbelievable to me.

The pieces of water garbage you speak of are the most unspeakably amazing things in the entire world. Are you entirely familiar with the electron transport system of a mitochondria? Formerly a prokaryotic cell? It's the most unbelievably beautiful thing in the entire world. Everything is so amazingly perfect. Coenzymes are reduced in the perfect places, complex oxiding agents are moving around preciesly in the phospholipds, precise gradients are established. This is true beauty. Everything is in it's proper place, and it happens perpetually. You don't have to appreciate evolution, but this is something you need to respect. The most tempting thing to do in the world is to credit it all to God. But Nature made these. They're products of evolution.

[soul .gc]

When you say Nature is Constant you imply that nothing ever changes. If you want to say that Nature can change and that luck plays a role then you refute the term Constant in the way in which you are using it. We are just arguing semantics now though.

 

As to the idea of Infinity---We all have different opinions and yours moves along the ideas of parallel universes, not infinite numbers of them. You are saying that there are an infinite number and that some represent ours but just a tiny difference in each one, "The path not taken" view, or as you said...1 less hydrogen molecule in the room. This is hard to wrap your mind around and I for one...doubt it highly.

 

As for the Earth ending..you are the one who said it would not end if the sun went SuperNova....I was just correcting you. It will end. That is an ending and you asked why there had to be one...becuase the sun will implode.

 

"The fact that humans try to measure the universe based on our totally inconsequential planet orbiting a meaningless star is pure weakness. It's fine for our day to day life. It means nothing in infinity."

 

If this is truly your thought then what is the point of living? The pure hopelessness of the future should be enough to never want to have kids to expose them to the same hopelessness and despair. We are nothing and never will be...hell, lets just all end it now.

 

"We did pick God. Don't ever mistake this."

 

It is comments like these why I am hate arguing with immature people. We were going along fine until you make remarks like these. This is a debate on many things, not an area to tell people what to do and what not to do.

 

I am thinking we are about done on this. For every post I put up you have something to counter it and the same in reverse. We are getting nowhere and I am tired of it. I will move forward knowing that you will never believe in a higher power, while I do believe in this power.

 

Good luck in school Ham, I will leave with one last question---Why go to school and move forward and have kids? What is the point? All that is waiting is dirt and a pine box....isn't that depressing? Ok...so that was 3 questions.

[Hambone]

When you say Nature is Constant you imply that nothing ever changes. If you want to say that Nature can change and that luck plays a role then you refute the term Constant in the way in which you are using it. We are just arguing semantics now though.

This is completely and utterly untrue, a total misinterpretation of a simple law. Many times have I said that nature's constancy does not mean that everything changes. The reason things change are constant. This is not a concept you can fail to understand if we are to continue.

As to the idea of Infinity---We all have different opinions and yours moves along the ideas of parallel universes, not infinite numbers of them. You are saying that there are an infinite number and that some represent ours but just a tiny difference in each one, "The path not taken" view, or as you said...1 less hydrogen molecule in the room. This is hard to wrap your mind around and I for one...doubt it highly.

What you mean to say is that the universe is finite, because that's the opposite of infinite. This means that over time, we will have been able to visit every single planet in every single galaxy. This is not reality. Infinity is reality, every new discovery points to this. We have a picture of something called the observable universe. If we visited a new planet every second starting at the time I click "Add Reply", our galaxy will be long dead before we can explore a measurable fraction. And that's what we know just with limited technology.

As for the Earth ending..you are the one who said it would not end if the sun went SuperNova....I was just correcting you. It will end. That is an ending and you asked why there had to be one...becuase the sun will implode.

If you show me where I said "The Earth will not end" then I'll owe you an apology. I don't think you'll find that though. Cosmic beginning and end is human concepts at work. The Earth means nothing in the cosmos, therefore it's beginning and end aren't relevant anyways. The only reason they're important is that we, the creatures of it, make it important.

If this is truly your thought then what is the point of living? The pure hopelessness of the future should be enough to never want to have kids to expose them to the same hopelessness and despair. We are nothing and never will be...hell, lets just all end it now.

Why are you so keen on ending yourself? Our situation isn't hopeless, as you say it is. We are nothing, and no we never will be. But we have those wonderful things called endorphines, so why not make use of them? You're missing some concepts here. You can have a productive and regret-less life and still be nothing, insignificant. I love my life, to be honest. Every day I look forward to seeing certain people, I enjoy posting in this argument, I enjoy making flash, and playing Counterstrike. I enjoy playing with my dog, I enjoy being around my girl, I enjoy listening to Incubus. I'm not about to stop now just because our planet and existences are inconsequential.

It is comments like these why I am hate arguing with immature people. We were going along fine until you make remarks like these. This is a debate on many things, not an area to tell people what to do and what not to do.

Does this trouble you? God sure is wonderful, and benevolent, but He was created by humans. Humans have Gods because they want to. We compound intangability here too: the mind (incorporeal) creates a deity (incorporeal). God exists because humans want him too. If you can't see this, religion and faith have made you blind. Does this mean Christianity is bad? Of course not, it's responsible for great acts of humanity (and inhumanity). This is a simple fact that we have to agree on here. Humans create deities from their minds. To phrase this another way, God is a figment of our imaginations. This is purely objective, I hope you won't be unecessarily offended by my thoughts.

I am thinking we are about done on this. For every post I put up you have something to counter it and the same in reverse. We are getting nowhere and I am tired of it. I will move forward knowing that you will never believe in a higher power, while I do believe in this power.

I hope you won't leave so soon, I like this argument. Intellectual sparring sharpens the mind.

Good luck in school Ham, I will leave with one last question---Why go to school and move forward and have kids? What is the point? All that is waiting is dirt and a pine box....isn't that depressing? Ok...so that was 3 questions.

When I find the right girl, I'll marry her and we'll find a place to live, and start a family. It's not particularly depressing, no. You assume that you cannot be happy and insignificant. This is a mistake. Calling a house a pine box is pessimism. Calling our planet trivial is just fact. I'm a fan of life myself, in all it's meaninglessness. I look forward to what's ahead of me every day, and I live with no substantial regrets. I do all this knowing that my birth and death won't mean anything in cosmic history.

[ConGregation]

Does this trouble you? God sure is wonderful, and benevolent, but He was created by humans. Humans have Gods because they want to. We compound intangability here too: the mind (incorporeal) creates a deity (incorporeal). God exists because humans want him too. If you can't see this, religion and faith have made you blind. Does this mean Christianity is bad? Of course not, it's responsible for great acts of humanity (and inhumanity). This is a simple fact that we have to agree on here. Humans create deities from their minds. To phrase this another way, God is a figment of our imaginations. This is purely objective, I hope you won't be unecessarily offended by my thoughts.

 

You miss a lot. We are dealing with faith here that you cannot seem to grasp. You are also ASSUMING that God is not real and that all your evolutionary assumptions are true.

 

This is why debating you is such a chore and not fun. You are unable to approach it with any consideration of the other's views. But whatever you do, PLEASE dont get back on here and say "No matter how much you want God to be real just thinking that he is real wont make it happen." or something suchlike. Its annoying

[Hambone]

I'm assuming God is not real because he is something human mind and emotion created. Do you agree with me? You are a Christian, unless I am really bad at picking up on things, ConGregation, are you not? Even with your faith in God, that he created everything, do you agree with me that he is something humans created? It's ironic that God created humans in his image, when humans created God in their minds. Your thoughts?

[soul .gc]

First off: "There are beginning and ends to certain events. Our earth, for example, had a beginning. It won't have an end, however. When the sun goes nova over the next severel eons, life on Earth will have died long ago. The Earth lives on, with or without us. We know this because nature is constant"

 

As to the universe being Infinite. I will link you to sume scientific websites and articles shortly that show how the universe is Growing---thereby making it NOT infinite. The universe is expanding over time so your one hypothesis is true...we could not start right now and visit every planet due to the fact that the universe is continually growing in size.

 

As to your opinion on Why God is here--I believe you are wrong. I believe that God picked us and showed himself to us and that is why we believe. Not because we picked him out of thin air and said; "hey--I am tired of Zeus and the gang on Mt Olympus...lets get a new god, I am not feeling creative today either so let's just call him God."

 

"The reason things change are constant. This is not a concept you can fail to understand if we are to continue."

 

I understand nature. I disagree completely with you though. To use talk you are fond of...You can NOT fail to realize that you are wrong. Some factors of nature are constant--some are not. The reason things change CAN change. Let's see....an easy example. I can take 2 apples from the same tree and neither look the same. I can leave them sit on my counter for 2 weeks and one will turn different colors then its friend. If you want to say that the BASIC laws of nature are constant I will go so far as to agree with this. Gravity is constant (so far), etc....

 

Read what you wrote again: "Does this trouble you? God sure is wonderful, and benevolent, but He was created by humans. Humans have Gods because they want to. We compound intangability here too: the mind (incorporeal) creates a deity (incorporeal). God exists because humans want him too. If you can't see this, religion and faith have made you blind. Does this mean Christianity is bad? Of course not, it's responsible for great acts of humanity (and inhumanity). This is a simple fact that we have to agree on here. Humans create deities from their minds. To phrase this another way, God is a figment of our imaginations. This is purely objective, I hope you won't be unecessarily offended by my thoughts."

 

That last paragraph was so inflammatory you must have typed it on purpose. If not then learn from this please. You debate fairly well but you need to stop using the inflammatory comments, they only work to make people angry.

[Hambone]

First off: "There are beginning and ends to certain events. Our earth, for example, had a beginning. It won't have an end, however. When the sun goes nova over the next severel eons, life on Earth will have died long ago. The Earth lives on, with or without us. We know this because nature is constant"

The matter that makes up Earth is not destroyed. It will congregate on other planets, or float around as cosmic debris for infinity, slowly aggregating due to gravity. The Earth will also not explode. Earth will have been sucked into the sun, and be a part of it, long before the sun ends. God created the Earth out of nothing. Nature is constant though: mass is neither created nor destroyed. I might have put that sentence slightly awkwardly, so I apologize. Allow me to retract that statement.

As to the universe being Infinite. I will link you to sume scientific websites and articles shortly that show how the universe is Growing---thereby making it NOT infinite. The universe is expanding over time so your one hypothesis is true...we could not start right now and visit every planet due to the fact that the universe is continually growing in size.

Does the fact that the universe is growing make it not infinite? Of course it doesn't! Infinity is not a number, period. Infinity is a concept. The universe might be growing, the term is quite anthropocentric. As the graph of 1/X approaches 0 from the right, it grows without bounds. Does this mean that it does not show us infinity? No...

As to your opinion on Why God is here--I believe you are wrong. I believe that God picked us and showed himself to us and that is why we believe. Not because we picked him out of thin air and said; "hey--I am tired of Zeus and the gang on Mt Olympus...lets get a new god, I am not feeling creative today either so let's just call him God."

What's your foundation for this? And that Mt Olympus analogy you use is not too far from innacurate, despite your intentions. Religions fade in and fade out, as a result of science taking the place of what their gods once did.

I understand nature. I disagree completely with you though. To use talk you are fond of...You can NOT fail to realize that you are wrong. Some factors of nature are constant--some are not. The reason things change CAN change. Let's see....an easy example. I can take 2 apples from the same tree and neither look the same. I can leave them sit on my counter for 2 weeks and one will turn different colors then its friend. If you want to say that the BASIC laws of nature are constant I will go so far as to agree with this. Gravity is constant (so far), etc....

But you don't understand nature if you try and refute its constancy. What factors of nature are not constant, do tell me. Your apple analogy is entirely innapropriate. You describe 2 dissimilair apples turning different colors over a period of 2 weeks. What in the heck does this have to do with nature's constancy? Of course 2 unequal apples won't change into the same thing. That's "no duh," not "aha!". Apples, like all organic matter, undergo a decay process. That's a constant, something you can rely on. You can continue to try and refute this, it's totally useless though. Nature is governed by laws, I said it before I'm saying it again. Pick your battles.

That last paragraph was so inflammatory you must have typed it on purpose. If not then learn from this please. You debate fairly well but you need to stop using the inflammatory comments, they only work to make people angry.

Why are you so touchy on this? This is not intended to be inflammatory, you made it inflammatory because it made you think about something that could be contradictory to your established belief. God is created in the mind of humans, would you care to disprove me? Or is anything not politically correct to talk about inflammatory? Shall we only talk about the strengths of Christianity? Let's avoid all defects in religion from here on then, because they're "inflammatory." I still am interested in your comments on God as a figment of imagination, however. For a final quote:

Then this will probably get deleted and I will start it on Th3Fall3N forums...why should it not be discussed? Close ourselves off from other peoples opinions? Why not listen and learn a little about how others think and why they think things? It can only serve to better you as a person, if it is that offending then just do not read...

You said this.

[soul .gc]

"Does the fact that the universe is growing make it not infinite? Of course it doesn't!"

 

YES---by every scientific explanation for infinity

 

 

I was waiting on the apology you had said would be forthcoming but I guess it is not coming? By saying the Earth will become part of the sun then the sun will implode implies that the earth will be mostly vaporized...sure a few scraps may float around to some plant or even be big enough to land on some far distant planet as a comet and wipe out their civilization..anything is possible but you are grasping at straws to avoid the apology.

 

"What's your foundation for this? And that Mt Olympus analogy you use is not too far from innacurate, despite your intentions. Religions fade in and fade out, as a result of science taking the place of what their gods once did"

 

Ummm...The Bible, The Koran, The Urantia Book, etc.... is my foundation for God picking us.

 

As to my apple analogy. Sure it was an extreme but it is still the same idea. Lets take decay. Decay is different for different substances...why? If everything was constant wouldn't it be that same rate of decay per item? BUT we have outside factors, Wind, Rain, UV Rays, etc...that can affect decay and cause it to change....thereby making it NOT constant. In a perfect environment, with no outside factors 2 identical things will decay at the same rate sure....but what on this planet is in a perfect environment...nothing. Let's take GRavity....right now it is a constant due to our position in the solar system and the rate at which the planet spins and rotate around the sun---what happens if our rotation declines a little, this would change gravity thereby making it no longer constant.

 

"Why are you so touchy on this? This is not intended to be inflammatory, you made it inflammatory because it made you think about something that could be contradictory to your established belief"

 

Obviously you did not read what you wrote again so I will pick out the comments I was talking about specifically:

 

1) "God exists because humans want him too. If you can't see this, religion and faith have made you blind"

 

2) "This is a simple fact that we have to agree on here"

[ConGregation]

I'm assuming God is not real because he is something human mind and emotion created. Do you agree with me? You are a Christian,  unless I am really bad at picking up on things, ConGregation, are you not? Even with your faith in God, that he created everything, do you agree with me that he is something humans created? It's ironic that God created humans in his image, when humans created God in their minds. Your thoughts?

No. God is not created in the minds of humans. That is just how you interpret our faith. As a Christian, God is real. Your sure are slow to understand this. So I will very patiently explain so you will follow

 

Basically God is a real being. What I think about God or what I feel about God changes NOTHING. Why is that you ask? Because God is a real being not created in our imaginations but a deity that has emotions and a will. Now follow the logic... You know we believe that God created the universe. And yet you have to ask me if God was created in our minds. That is un-logical. So Im asking you to use YOUR imagination and consider our POV.

 

I still think you should read the Bible. Even if you dont feel it is God's Word it still has a practical things. And how is the Genesis reading coming that you said you were going to do