Evolution Vs Creation

[Hambone]

YES---by every scientific explanation for infinity

What exactly to you mean when you say the universe is growing? Do you mean the void is expanding? How can you tell when nothing becomes more nothing then? The universe "expanding"... you'll have to explain this to me. As for growing not making it infinity, I'm going to temporarily assume your idea of an "expanding" unviverse is true. Temporarily. You say that it growing contradicts infinity. But it doesn't. Have you ever heard of a mathematical concept called degrees of infinity? To put it as simply as possible, are there the same amount of numbers between 0 and 1 as there are between 0 and 2? Clearly there aren't, but it doesn't quite matter since it's all infinity. So your "expanding" universe is still infinity.

was waiting on the apology you had said would be forthcoming but I guess it is not coming? By saying the Earth will become part of the sun then the sun will implode implies that the earth will be mostly vaporized...sure a few scraps may float around to some plant or even be big enough to land on some far distant planet as a comet and wipe out their civilization..anything is possible but you are grasping at straws to avoid the apology.

 

Whoa.

 

Time out here Soul.

 

Nature is constant though: mass is neither created nor destroyed. I might have put that sentence slightly awkwardly, so I apologize. Allow me to retract that statement.

 

I'm trying to both respect and refute Christianity at the same time. But my arguments won't be logical if you don't read my posts. You're not reading to learn here apparently.

 

Ummm...The Bible, The Koran, The Urantia Book, etc.... is my foundation for God picking us.

All books written by humans for human audiences.

As to my apple analogy. Sure it was an extreme but it is still the same idea. Lets take decay. Decay is different for different substances...why? If everything was constant wouldn't it be that same rate of decay per item? BUT we have outside factors, Wind, Rain, UV Rays, etc...that can affect decay and cause it to change....thereby making it NOT constant. In a perfect environment, with no outside factors 2 identical things will decay at the same rate sure....but what on this planet is in a perfect environment...nothing. Let's take GRavity....right now it is a constant due to our position in the solar system and the rate at which the planet spins and rotate around the sun---what happens if our rotation declines a little, this would change gravity thereby making it no longer constant.

Decay? What kind of decay? Radioactive decay? Organic decay? Oh, apples, you must have meant organic items decaying. Again, you are totally blowing this concept of nature's constancy here. It's getting exasperating on my end, leave it alone. You don't understand this concept of nature being constant. Everything doesn't decay at the same rate because everything is chemically, and physically different. "Decay is different for different substances... why?" Ugh. You're killing me here, but I'll try to explain it. Different things decay at different rates, you want an explanation why? Your monitor and your apple are both organized molecular object, temporarily. The metallic, magnetic, covalent, and adhesive forces holding your monitor together are stronger the polysaccharide and organic molecule arrangement in what you call an apple. Decay, in this sense, represents the loss of organization. Wind, UV Rays, Rain, etc... are all naturally accountable phenomena.

Let's take GRavity....right now it is a constant due to our position in the solar system and the rate at which the planet spins and rotate around the sun---what happens if our rotation declines a little, this would change gravity thereby making it no longer constant.

Our gravity is not constant first of all. Are you familiar with the formula for gravitational attraction?

G(M1)(M2)

_________

R^2

Where G is the universal gravitational constant, and R is the distance between the center of two masses, squared. Molecules leave and enter our atmosphere all the time. Our gravity is not constant. But does that formula change? No, it's constant. Does the universal gravitational constant change? No, it is a mathematical constant. Does the force value change? Yes, our mass is ever so slightly altering, constantly. But nature's law here doesn't change. And have you noticed why you haven't spun wildly into the sun recently? Because this formula keeps us in orbit. "What happens if our rotation declines a little, this would change gravity thereby making it no longer constant" Our gravity would change, but you notice how this hasn't happened? Here's your argument: "what if nature wasnt constant, then it wouldnt be constant."

If these are more powerful words than before, it's because they're necessary. You told me I didn't apologize when I did. You try to bring up simple chemical concepts to refute natural law. Ugh.

[Hambone]

Ok, back to you ConGregation.

 

No. God is not created in the minds of humans. That is just how you interpret our faith. As a Christian, God is real. Your sure are slow to understand this. So I will very patiently explain so you will follow

Why isn't he? God, and the concept of any gods, is a human invention. As a Christian, God is real because you make him real in your mind. But the human mind doesn't alter reality by itself. Skizofrenia for instance (pardon my spelling). If a skizofrenic sees a tree, it is real to him. But does his mind actually make that tree real? No, we call skizofrenics crazy, insane. You're going to kill me for making this comparison, but pyschologically it's the same thing. The mind is making something intangible into reality. In Christianity, and in skizofrenia, high degrees of faith are both involved int he percieved realities. But perception doesn't alter reality. Even if it's your religion, your belief, and your belief says God is real, God made us, this is still a product of human imagination.

Basically God is a real being. What I think about God or what I feel about God changes NOTHING. Why is that you ask? Because God is a real being not created in our imaginations but a deity that has emotions and a will. Now follow the logic... You know we believe that God created the universe. And yet you have to ask me if God was created in our minds. That is un-logical. So Im asking you to use YOUR imagination and consider our POV.

What you think about God changes everything in the microcosm called your mind. God is real. God is real because the Bible says he is real, your church says he is real, the people around you tell you he is real, and you think he is real. The Bible was not written by God, it was written supposedly by the son of God. Who is the son of God because the Bible says so. The church says he is real because the church believes the Bible. The people around you believe the church. You believe in all three. Your beliefs are your own business. I personally don't need to make a God in my head though.

still think you should read the Bible. Even if you dont feel it is God's Word it still has a practical things. And how is the Genesis reading coming that you said you were going to do

I'm still working on it, I said I would and I will though. Life keeps me busy, for the moment at least. I'm going to take a comparative religions class the coming semester. Maybe that will change my mind.

[ConGregation]

You refuse to even entertain the possiblity that you may be wrong. THats a punk kid for ya

 

I explained my views and you call my beliefs a form of skizofrenia. In your little world that is your only explanation. Im through. Good day.

[Hambone]

I didn't call it that, it was a comparison. You don't have anything to say on the subject?

[Xterminator]

i'll go with creation story

[Hambone]

Thanks Xterminator. I think once and for all this debate can be laid to rest.

 

i'll go with creation story

[soul .gc]

Ok..I was hasty..I did not see your apology buried in that text so thanks for that. Now as to the rest of this.

 

"It's getting exasperating on my end, leave it alone. You don't understand this concept of nature being constant."

 

I am thinking I understand it fine and it is you who is having the problem. By definistion something is constant if you get the same results time after time after time....that is NOT nature. If you want to pick out specific Laws of NAture and say they are constant I willmost likely agree (depending which ones you choose). But to use Nature as a whole encompassing term is incorrect..Human Nature is not Constant for one very good example.

 

"Our gravity would change, but you notice how this hasn't happened? Here's your argument: "what if nature wasnt constant, then it wouldnt be constant.""

 

No..here is my argument...Nature is NOT constant...but this is completely off the topic.

 

Definition of Infinity - "In general, infinity is the quality or state of endlessness or having no limits in terms of time, space, or other quantity." from http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,...i809150,00.html

 

If the universe is constantly expanding it does have an end. Any number of scientific magazines will point you to the fact the universe is growing...thereby meaning it does have an end...just not one we can reach...thereby making it NOT infinite. To use your term...Ugh!

 

"God is real because the Bible says he is real, your church says he is real, the people around you tell you he is real, and you think he is real"

 

This same argument can be used for Evolution. You believe we evolved because books say we did, because scientists you talk to tell you so, because you this it happened...thereby making it real to you.

[Hambone]

No problem. I was mad that you told me I didn't apologize, so glad we cleared that up.

 

I am thinking I understand it fine and it is you who is having the problem. By definistion something is constant if you get the same results time after time after time....that is NOT nature. If you want to pick out specific Laws of NAture and say they are constant I willmost likely agree (depending which ones you choose). But to use Nature as a whole encompassing term is incorrect..Human Nature is not Constant for one very good example.

I don't like your definition of constant, so here's mine: immutable. The thing is though, nature is so wonderfully predictable, and anything we don't know we learn. An animal we arbitrarily call a lion will eat other animals, we call it a heterotroph. You think because it doesn't eat the same thing everyday is magnifacent evidence for refuting nature's constancy? Nope. Animalian pyschology, weather patterns, scents in the air, everything has an origin and a purpose. It's all so magical, it's almost tempting to thank God for it. Almost. You seemed to like the law of gravity, and I am pleased. Care to refute laws for electric force, Shrodinger's electron probability, water potential, or difference quotients (on the subject of infinity)? Everything follows laws. Any possible idea you can think of will never, ever contradict any of these and other laws. Human Nature, you're adding adjectives now, is governed by laws too. If you disagree, start a petition to stop the pyschologist community from wasting money and time on research, because I think they'd be thoroughly amused.

 

If the universe is constantly expanding it does have an end. Any number of scientific magazines will point you to the fact the universe is growing...thereby meaning it does have an end...just not one we can reach...thereby making it NOT infinite. To use your term...Ugh!

So it does have an end, but we'll never get there. That's the idea of limits, and those exist. But you're misusing this. Allow me to use an equation to illusrate this:

y=(x(x-1))/(x-1)

The limit as x approaches one from either side is one. It will never equal one, no matter how arbitrarily, even infinitely close you get. The point is, does it matter? The further you go, the more you realize how you've gone nowhere, so it's futile. To say the universe has an end that is growing is to say that there is a wall, and a sign. There's a little sign informing us that we've reached the end of the universe, to turn back. There's an invisible wall, a great tourist attraction, that you can put your hand on, it's the end of the universe! But there is no sign, or wall. You can't put a wall on infinity, it's infinite. There is no end. You promised me that any number of scientific magazines would tell me that the universe is expanding. I want 30 then, because there's any number, and I'm partial to the number 30. But if you can show me 1 decent one, I'll be temporarily satisfied. You said there's an end, but one we can't reach, so it isn't infinite. If we can't reach it, ever, how does that not make it infinite? Is there a planet out there where there's a cliff where we can put a quarter in the binocular machine and look at the end of the universe? "Honey, there it is. It's a shame we'll never get there." The concept of infinity eludes you I fear.

This same argument can be used for Evolution. You believe we evolved because books say we did, because scientists you talk to tell you so, because you this it happened...thereby making it real to you.

Don't ever equate evolution with creationism. Evolution is science. Evolutionary theory is based on biology, chemistry, things we can learn from nature instead of take for granted without question from a Bible. I believe we evolved because there is evidence. There are expirements I can perform, and have performed, that tell me this. I take nothing for granted. If I can't do it I am skeptical at best. Don't equate the Bible with a science book either. Science books are constantly changing, because we don't know everything yet. When's the last time God published a new Gospel? I'm waiting on my pre-ordered edition of the New New Testament, but I haven't gotten it yet. It's real to me for me because it is real; it's not something debatable, or anything conjured in my mind based on what dubious men said thousands of years ago. Had to edit out this last sentence here. Not everyone wants to hear a provocative thought.

[soul .gc]

"Everything follows laws. Any possible idea you can think of will never, ever contradict any of these and other laws"

 

There is not a law for everything. Why when you get drunk do you sleep with ugly women? Is there a law for this? Cause when I get drunk I will not sleep with an ugly woman (that is a lie).

Ham---open your eyes and see I am not fighting you on this...I am trying to correct you generalizing everything. I agree that there are laws....but to say that All of Nature is constant is just VERY untrue. You keep using specifics in your examples like the Lion...what about Humans, we are meat eaters...but what about the vegetarians?

 

On the Infinity argument...I will supply some examples when I get to work on Monday form Scientific American and other journals....I doubt I will get 30 though just because it will be a waste of time. The Universe is Finite in size but is constantly expanding. Because we cannot grasp the idea of the size we sometimes, erringly, refer to it as infinite. If you want a good example of Infinite...look at God and his abilities.

 

"Don't ever equate evolution with creationism."

 

But I did....and still do according to your theorem.

 

"I believe we evolved because there is evidence."

 

I never said we have not evolved. I said we did not come from a piece of water garbage floating in the steaming oceans billions of years ago. However you look at it you have no evidence we evolved from that either. You have no evidence of the Big Bang. You have Hypothesis and theories but no substantial proof.

 

"it's not something debatable, or anything conjured in my mind based on what dubious men said thousands of years ago."

 

It is very debatable....that is what we are currently doing. The "Dubious men" you mention were actual historic figures. There is documented proof of many of the people in the bible as well as the writings they provided for the bible.

 

In my mind it is convenient how we have become a "scientific" culture and people are starting to have no use for God anymore. We are constantly moving towards a "I have to see it to believe it" attitude as you said you, yourself, have. The thing you do not realize is that in fighting so hard to prove your belief you are exhibiting a HUGE amount of Faith in Evolution....the same amount of Faith I show in God, how is that different? We both have beliefs, they are just not the same....but BOTH require that all powerful FAITH.

[Hambone]

There is not a law for everything. Why when you get drunk do you sleep with ugly women? Is there a law for this? Cause when I get drunk I will not sleep with an ugly woman (that is a lie).

This is a horrendous attempt to disprove my statement. Symptoms of excessive alchohol consumption include impaired judgement and failing eyesight. You could sleep with an ugly man and not know it. It's different for each person because everyone is by nature different. Your liver may work faster than the person next to you. You may have eaten something, impeding the immediate absorption. Everything is accounted for, that's the beauty of nature's constancy! "when you get drunk do you sleep with ugly women" is not a law. That's a human psychological/social pattern generalization, which is totally irrelevant.

You keep using specifics in your examples like the Lion...what about Humans, we are meat eaters...but what about the vegetarians?

Humans are heterotrophs, all of them. We have to consume constantly to live. That's that; I hope you won't argue.

I never said we have not evolved. I said we did not come from a piece of water garbage floating in the steaming oceans billions of years ago. However you look at it you have no evidence we evolved from that either. You have no evidence of the Big Bang. You have Hypothesis and theories but no substantial proof.

The Big Bang? Who's talking about the Big Bang? I'm sure not. And back to water garbage. Once again, you better respect it whether or not you do or don't accept the fact that it's your ancestor. The same "water garbage" that thrived in the primitive oceans is present in all photosynthetic plants (chloroplasts are "water garbage") and keeps you alive long enough to read and respond to this (mitochondria are "water garbage"). The garbage you refer to is pure natural beauty. It makes the ATP that is creating an electrochemical gradient in your neurons, present in your eyes, to send an impulse to your brain for interpretation, which recieves blood from a heart powered by myosin/actin and ATP formed in mitochondria. Whether you admit it or not, this water garbage keeps you and everyone you know alive.

It is very debatable....that is what we are currently doing. The "Dubious men" you mention were actual historic figures. There is documented proof of many of the people in the bible as well as the writings they provided for the bible.

I deny not that these men existed. Although history can easily create someone if it wants to. The dubiousness comes into play when they right the Bible.

In my mind it is convenient how we have become a "scientific" culture and people are starting to have no use for God anymore. We are constantly moving towards a "I have to see it to believe it" attitude as you said you, yourself, have. The thing you do not realize is that in fighting so hard to prove your belief you are exhibiting a HUGE amount of Faith in Evolution....the same amount of Faith I show in God, how is that different? We both have beliefs, they are just not the same....but BOTH require that all powerful FAITH.

The reason I sound madder, if I do, is because you have offended me. This is the first time in this argument's 11 pages that I have been offended. You try and equate Creationism, a faith based pseudo-science at best to evolution: pure unadulterated science and fact. Faith in pseudo-science and faith and science are night and day. There's no chemical test to test for the presence of God in solution, but there are several ones to test for presence of glucose. All faiths are not created equal. Believing in the church and God is not anywhere near to believing in tried and tested conceptual science. Don't equate the two, ever.

[soul .gc]

Why will you not admint that ALL of Nature is not constant? It is a very true statement but I am tired of arguing that line.

 

"The same "water garbage" that thrived in the primitive oceans"

 

IF...and I say IF, it thrived in the oceans it was becuase it was given to the world by a higher power. However, there is no proof that it existed then so who is to say.

 

"The dubiousness comes into play when they right the Bible."

 

How can they be dubious to write in something that is what the believe in...the same as scientists writing down what they see after they perform an experiment today....they wrote what they saw at the times of their lives.

 

"This is the first time in this argument's 11 pages that I have been offended. You try and equate Creationism, a faith based pseudo-science at best to evolution: pure unadulterated science and fact. Faith in pseudo-science and faith and science are night and day. There's no chemical test to test for the presence of God in solution, but there are several ones to test for presence of glucose. All faiths are not created equal. Believing in the church and God is not anywhere near to believing in tried and tested conceptual science. Don't equate the two, ever. "

 

The are not Night and Day...Faith is there for each of them. Evolutionism is NOT pure science and fact...it is PURE conjecture based on experiments we can perform under conditions in todays environments. There is fact ZERO about how life was formed on the planet that either side of this debate can prove.

 

"Believing in the church and God is not anywhere near to believing in tried and tested conceptual science."

 

I agree completely with you here. Believing in God is much more powerful then science. When you are on your deathbed which will bring you greater ease? When you are at a troubled time in your life and need guidance? When you are extremely happy with life and want to thank someone? God will be the one you turn to in these moments (well maybe not you Ham, but the majority of people....even non-christian religions will look to their God in these cases).

 

Last night I went outside and was doing some stargazing. As I looked up at the sky I was amazed at how many stars you can see with the naked eye. It is amazing what God has given us...someday we wil travel those stars and see what it is like in other galaxies, other worlds, other cultures. We will see how God has affected them and brought them into existence.

 

Also---why is it that just Ham and I are debating this? No one else has opinions or wants to weigh in with thoughts? come on people...stop sidelining and jump on in.

[Fatty]

Thanks Xterminator. I think once and for all this debate can be laid to rest.

 

i'll go with creation story

I think he meant as opposed to the tale of evolution.

[Guest UberNewb]

I just kinda want to jump in here for just a minute, Soul. How can you be sure that the Bible is actually what these people believed in? I mean, not every book that has been written is true... the fact that you choose to base a religion around this single book is your own deal, but the fact remains that the stories in the Bible may not have actually happened. I mean, you could start a religion around The Lord of the Rings trilogy, and in a million years if the planet and your religion endured, and you actually lead people to believe that it was true... well, maybe the people then would be having a discussion just like this one.

 

Just because you were told that this is all true doesn't make it true. The fact is, we really won't know whether or not there is a God until we are dead and gone.

 

I'm no scientist like Hammy seems to be, but I'm going to fight on his side. I was afraid to come in before because I've already been chewed out on this board for what I believe in... but I'm going to do my best to contribute to this discussion with the agnostic lay man's point of view.

 

Uber

 

P.S. You did have others. They just kinda left. And they were all on your side, Soul. I think ConGregation's reason for leaving was a little... I dunno... its just what he said. To me, it seemed like he was saying 'You refuse to give up your beliefs. I guess you're just being a little runt. Ah well, if you're going to continue to fight for what you believe, then I'm outta here.'

 

Nothin against the Rev, but why should he give up on Evolution? He believes in it!

[soul .gc]

"How can you be sure that the Bible is actually what these people believed in? I mean, not every book that has been written is true"

 

There are lots of stories relating back to Christ and papers people wrote and letters they wrote about him and his miracles. Never once have I said I believe completely in the Bible. I actually think that the Bible is wrong in spots. I believe that it was written by men and therefore it has some Bias in it. I DO believe in the overall message of the bible and the fact that God does exist and that he created us in his image.

 

Here is one example I believe the Bible is wrong....The Flood. I believe the Flood did happen in one part of the world and to the people involved this was the only place they knew. This is when the Black Sea was formed and flooded all the surrounding regions. I think that a lot of the Bible has references to things that were VERY biased. For example, at the end of the Bible there is a message about changing or adding anything to the Bible--God would not say this, this was most likely put in by some Pope at sometime during the Holy Wars but who knows. The one thing I do believein and believe wholeheartedly is that God does exist and is watching over us all.

[Hambone]

Why will you not admint that ALL of Nature is not constant? It is a very true statement but I am tired of arguing that line.

Why should I denounce the first and foremost of all natural laws based on your inept attempts to disprove it? So far, the scintillating arguments I've read (on an attempt to disprove nature's constancy) "why dont i sleep with ugly women when im drunk?","what if earths orbit were suddenly to change?","what about vegetarians?", and "why do two different apples turn different colors?". You don't have mastery of this law, you don't have any means of refuting it. I will not "admint" anything.

IF...and I say IF, it thrived in the oceans it was becuase it was given to the world by a higher power. However, there is no proof that it existed then so who is to say.

Why were they given to the Earth by a higher power? Oparin has a wonderful, and tried theory, that shows precisely how it can be done without invoking a God of whatever sort. And even if it wasn't, you refered to them as "water garbage." This really offended me. Whether or not it was evolution, the same existing water-dwelling double-membrane phospholipid bound bacterium in the ocean are the double-membrane bound organelles that are making your life possible. Respect that.

How can they be dubious to write in something that is what the believe in...the same as scientists writing down what they see after they perform an experiment today....they wrote what they saw at the times of their lives.

How many accounts of non-Christian 3rd person refusals do we have today? Where's the guy that saw Moses part the Red Sea? Where's the guy that recorded Noahs age to be 900+? They don't exist. Even if they did exist, Christian history is full of Inquisition, anyhing possibly contrary to Christian beliefs is persecuted, eliminated. History is falliable, the further back you go the more falliable it is, simply becaues of the author's bias. The Bible didn't have a contemporary counterpoint. Scientists write down observations. They explain why these observations occur. They predict future observations. They develop models. They learn to manipulate nature, instead of incessantly praising God for it.

The are not Night and Day...Faith is there for each of them. Evolutionism is NOT pure science and fact...it is PURE conjecture based on experiments we can perform under conditions in todays environments. There is fact ZERO about how life was formed on the planet that either side of this debate can prove.

Evolution is pure science, pure fact. We know nature is constant. We know that the tree outside of my room right now is not spontaneously going to adopt 100% radioactive isotopes of carbon, so it can be accurately dated. We know that even though acids produce ammonia produces fertilizers produces wheat produces my biscuit, it's not spontaneously going to become acidic again and kill me while in my stomach. We don't have to actually go to infinity temperature to show that the enzyme catalase won't work above temperatures of 40C. It's not going to jump up. Scientific models have the ability to predict. That's science. You say there is nothing that can be proven about the origins of life? That's entirely untrue. Are you not a friend of Mr. Oparin? He showed you a very simplistic way life could have started, but you say there is "fact ZERO."

I agree completely with you here. Believing in God is much more powerful then science. When you are on your deathbed which will bring you greater ease? When you are at a troubled time in your life and need guidance? When you are extremely happy with life and want to thank someone? God will be the one you turn to in these moments (well maybe not you Ham, but the majority of people....even non-christian religions will look to their God in these cases).

See I don't need any reassurance that can't be created by me. Believing in God is one of the biggest impediments to clear thought that I can think of. Any evidence taken has to fit in with Biblical stories, or account for Creationism, instead of being clairvoyant and thinking with clarity. Christianity tries to encompass scientific evidence to give their irrational stories and degree of verisimmilitude, but that's not how it science operates. Models change. What we call the atom now looks nothing like what we called that atom 30 years ago. Scientists love to admit their wrong, but Christians can't. Science changes. But Christianity can't. Until the New New Testament is published I hope you won't argue. When I need guidance I think clearly. I don't need to invoke a God to help me think. That's amazingly hypocritical too. Is God going to help you find the answer to your social problem when some 3rd world Christians are coping with the loss of his mother during her 7th pregnancy? You can turn to God all you want, it's all hypocrisy. Prayer before school football games gets me the worst, I can't stand it. God, watch over these middle class kids who have time to hit each other during their leisure and will never know what it means to not have 1 meal a day. Makes me sick.

Last night I went outside and was doing some stargazing. As I looked up at the sky I was amazed at how many stars you can see with the naked eye. It is amazing what God has given us...someday we wil travel those stars and see what it is like in other galaxies, other worlds, other cultures. We will see how God has affected them and brought them into existence.

The stars you can see don't even measure up to a fraction of infinity. We won't travel to all those stars. Why do we need to? If you think we'll find other worlds and other cultures, not to say that we won't, you're being anthropocentric about alien life forms.

[soul .gc]

"your inept attempts to disprove it? "

 

Well so much for keeping it nice. Here we go then.

 

"Anyone who has studied physics (the science of the laws of nature) knows how daunting the task is of learning the philosophical and mathematical formalisms needed to fully comprehend, express, and apply natural laws. Complicating this situation is the fact that some of these laws are still "under construction"-being debated by the scientific community. Moreover, today we have two fundamental approaches to studying the natural world (quantum theory and Einsteinian physics)."

 

I am not saying that there are laws...I am saying that ALL of Nature is NOT constant. I do not have to disprove your 5 examples if you cannot prove to me that nature is always constant...since it is not. If Nature was always constant then we could NOT have mutations, evolution, etc...due to the fact that these anolmalies would not be allowed do to the constancy. So please continue with your big words and your youngish "I am always right attitude"

 

I was the one that called them water garbage and I still do. I do not respect them for what they do...they have a job to do and are doing it...good for them, they are water garbage to me.

 

"Evolution is pure science, pure fact. We know nature is constant"

 

This is the biggest load of malarkey I have seen written yet. It is not pure fact. It is lots of conjecture based off of experiments done in todays environments.

 

"You say there is nothing that can be proven about the origins of life? That's entirely untrue. Are you not a friend of Mr. Oparin? He showed you a very simplistic way life could have started, but you say there is "fact ZERO.""

 

I also told you a way life COULD have started...what makes your way better then mine...ohh wait...it is that ever-present FAITH you have iin your way that I have in mine...I am not saying mine is better, I am just saying I do not believe you are correct in your factual depiction of the beginning of life.

 

"Believing in God is one of the biggest impediments to clear thought that I can think of."

 

Good thing you do not believe then. I, however, do believe and it helps me think clearer most times.

 

"Scientists love to admit their wrong, but Christians can't"

 

So it is just christians? What about buddhists, islamics, Jews, etc....? Is 97percent of the world wrong?

 

"Is God going to help you find the answer to your social problem when some 3rd world Christians are coping with the loss of his mother during her 7th pregnancy?"

 

YES he will. The belief in God and the faith that he is listening and helping guide you through life and the knowledge that he is the ultimate power with the ability to multitask (that is do more then one thing at once). He is able to take in the dead mother as well as guide us in our problems...all at the same time.

 

"You can turn to God all you want, it's all hypocrisy. Prayer before school football games gets me the worst, I can't stand it. God, watch over these middle class kids who have time to hit each other during their leisure and will never know what it means to not have 1 meal a day. Makes me sick."

 

Have you ever not done the prayer? Stood back and said, "hey, I do not believe in God so I am not praying". Why not? Because of what others will think? If you are so worried about the third world countries and families who cannot eat each day then join the peace core or call Sally Struthers and donate 50 cents to feed a family a week...but that is not part of this debate so lets drop that line already.

 

"If you think we'll find other worlds and other cultures, not to say that we won't, you're being anthropocentric about alien life forms"

 

As to this...what does this matter? I sure think there are other civilizations out there somewhere. Thank you for the new terminology for us all though.

[soul .gc]

Here is a good tidbit on constants for you:

 

"In 1999, Webb and others measured 30 quasar spectra, focusing on absorption lines caused by magnesium and iron atoms. The lines seemed to have shifted slightly relative to measurements made in the laboratory, implying a small change in the fine-structure constant2.

 

It was a provocative and controversial result. This second survey embraces more quasar sources and looks at absorption lines from a range of other elements. It gives the researchers four independent sets of data from which to extract values of the fine-structure constant, as well as increasing the precision of the measurements.

 

A change of the same order of magnitude persists in all the data, indicating that the 'constant' has indeed increased over time. If confirmed by other measurements, the finding will overturn the idea that the fundamental constants define the canvas on which the universe was painted. The picture and the canvas, it seems, may have evolved together."

 

From http://www.nature.com/nsu/010816/010816-8.html

 

Here is one on the Universe Expanding:

 

"The Hubble Space Telescope (HST) has completed its measurement of the Hubble constant, a measure of how fast the Universe is expanding and a cornerstone of our understanding of the age and size of the Universe1. The final value of the constant seems to be just about spot-on.

 

The finding marks the attainment of one of the HST's primary goals. "We are literally done," says Wendy Freedman, who has led the HST Hubble constant project since the telescope was launched 11 years ago."

 

From: http://www.nature.com/nsu/010607/010607-8.html

 

Here is an article that supports my comment of how things can be constant in a "perfect" environment:

 

"Stopping light sounds impossible -- Einstein's theory is popularly interpreted as saying that the speed of light is always constant. But this applies only to light travelling in a vacuum. When it passes through other materials, light is often slowed down, which is why a light ray bends as it passes from air to water or glass. This slowing is generally small, however, and light still passes through most materials at phenomenal speeds."

[soul .gc]

Here is one more on Natures Constants:

 

"Recent observations of metallic atoms in gas clouds 12 billion light years from Earth may help to confirm the theories of four physicists who have been working for over a decade in virtual obscurity on an outlandish notion -- that cherished fundamental constants of nature, such as the speed of light, might not be constant after all.

 

 

Using the world's largest telescope, the 30-foot-wide Keck Telescope in Hawaii, a team of experimentalists led by John Webb of the University of New South Wales in Sydney, Australia, observed patterns of light absorption that could not be explained without assuming a change in a basic constant of nature called the fine structure constant, a combination of 3 other universal constants: electric charge, light speed, and Planck's constant, named for the German physicist Max Planck and important in the study of atoms and subatomic particles. "

 

"that cherished fundamental constants of nature"

 

That sentencei n particular is key to our argument. There ARE laws of nature that are constant...but ALL of nature is NOT constant.

 

This all brought to your from: http://www.sciencenewsweek.com/articles/constants.htm

 

And from : http://www.kirschner-seminare.de/Artikel/M...icCausality.htm

 

"David Bohm begins his book Causality and Chance in Modern Physics with "In nature nothing remains constant. Everything is in a perpetual state of transformation, motion and change."

 

So....can we end this line of debate on Nature? I think I have proven and given you scientific articles galore on the fact that All of Nature is NOT constant.

[Hambone]

Interesting article. But like I said, science changes with new observations. Apparantly the old model isn't accurate for every new piece of information. Explanations, changes. Nature stays constant. Light doesn't suddenly change speed for no reason. Just because this article suggests that the speed of light constant needs reevaluation due to an obscure phenomenom does not change the simplest law of nature: constancy.

"David Bohm begins his book Causality and Chance in Modern Physics with "In nature nothing remains constant. Everything is in a perpetual state of transformation, motion and change."

Of course nature changes. Of course everything transforms. You still misinterpret my basic three word sentence. This is all evidence for it, not against it. Everything is goverened by simple natural laws, nature is constant.

[Hambone]

As for the argument that the universe is expanding, the mere idea of it is sheer absurdity. There is no end to void, period. To even suggest that the universe is "expanding", like it's adding another room, is absurdity. This means the universe is finite. This means there is a wall, that you can't pass, because it's the end of the universe. I'd love to leave my finger prints on the universal wall, it'd be a great thing to brag about to all my friends. There is no wall out there, because of that thing called infinity. Telescopes have to have a reference points to measure distance. There are no reference points in void.

 

"Stopping light sounds impossible -- Einstein's theory is popularly interpreted as saying that the speed of light is always constant. But this applies only to light travelling in a vacuum. When it passes through other materials, light is often slowed down, which is why a light ray bends as it passes from air to water or glass. This slowing is generally small, however, and light still passes through most materials at phenomenal speeds."

Light can be manipulated, just like everything else. It's all accountable for, nature is constant once again. Light doesn't spontaneously slow down for no reason.

[soul .gc]

"Of course nature changes. Of course everything transforms. You still misinterpret my basic three word sentence. This is all evidence for it, not against it. Everything is goverened by simple natural laws, nature is constant"

 

If nature changes then it is NOT constant. Enough said.

[Hambone]

I am not saying that there are laws...I am saying that ALL of Nature is NOT constant. I do not have to disprove your 5 examples if you cannot prove to me that nature is always constant...since it is not. If Nature was always constant then we could NOT have mutations, evolution, etc...due to the fact that these anolmalies would not be allowed do to the constancy. So please continue with your big words and your youngish "I am always right attitude"

This is not true. You do not understand the concept of nature's constancy. Mutations happen due to nature's constancy. Evolutions happens as a direct result of certain immutable laws. You take it to mean nothing changes, you err. Things change in nature because nature is constant, change is predicted due to nature's constancy? You can't see the beauty of it all, you're still in darkness!

I was the one that called them water garbage and I still do. I do not respect them for what they do...they have a job to do and are doing it...good for the.

That's poor class right there. The very things letting you think and breathe you disrespect. You don't appreciate nature one bit.

This is the biggest load of malarkey I have seen written yet. It is not pure fact. It is lots of conjecture based off of experiments done in todays environments.

But is is fact. What is not fact? Come up with an example for me.

I also told you a way life COULD have started...what makes your way better then mine...ohh wait...it is that ever-present FAITH you have iin your way that I have in mine...I am not saying mine is better, I am just saying I do not believe you are correct in your factual depiction of the beginning of life.

My way is better than yours because mine is based on science, based on natural observations, expirements, tested hypothesis, and change. Not a single piece of literary achievement glorying someone else. The Bible is not objective.

Good thing you do not believe then. I, however, do believe and it helps me think clearer most times.

You cannot argue with me on the fact that God is a thought impediment. Every single piece of science has to fit in with God's stories, instead of cross-analyzation.

So it is just christians? What about buddhists, islamics, Jews, etc....? Is 97percent of the world wrong?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Buddhism doesn't have a Creation story, not being a religion and all. And where the hell do you get that 97% figure?

YES he will. The belief in God and the faith that he is listening and helping guide you through life and the knowledge that he is the ultimate power with the ability to multitask (that is do more then one thing at once). He is able to take in the dead mother as well as guide us in our problems...all at the same time.

That's an interesting thought. God cares the same about a large white male trying to get a date to the school dance as the infertile mother trying to have a child as the child wishing he had eyesight as the man dying in obscurity from his friends? Prayer is hypocritical. The people who pray the most self-righteously are the people who don't need it.

Have you ever not done the prayer? Stood back and said, "hey, I do not believe in God so I am not praying". Why not? Because of what others will think? If you are so worried about the third world countries and families who cannot eat each day then join the peace core or call Sally Struthers and donate 50 cents to feed a family a week...but that is not part of this debate so lets drop that line already.

We're not in Evolution anymore, and we haven't been for awhile. I keep silent during the prayer, it angers me. I do donate to help kids. I also am not so selfish to pray for myself or blindly hopeful as to pray for someone else. Humans and nature work together to make things happen, God is just someone you thank when it works out and a name you don't mention when it doesn't.

[Hambone]

If nature changes then it is NOT constant. Enough said.

Wrong. You don't get this simple little statement. You think nothing changes, that's not what the statement says.

[Playaa]

I'm sick of all of you ppl...........get over it

 

Nothin against the Rev, but why should he give up on Evolution? He believes in it!

 

why should we give up on Creation? we believe in it.....

that's why I left this topic and that's why I assume Rev has left it, because it is a POINTLESS DEBATE BECAUSE WE'RE ALL A BUNCH OF STUBBORN PIGHEADED MORONS WHO THINK WE ARE THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS IN THE ENTIRE WORLD AND DON'T WANT TO COME OUT OF OUR LITTLE SHELLS TO THINK ABOUT SOMEONE ELSE'S VIEW!!!!

 

understand?

[Guest UberNewb]

You refuse to even entertain the possiblity that you may be wrong. Thats a punk kid for ya 

Playaa, this is what I was referring to. But the irony is that both sides refuse to entertain that possibility. I wasn't saying anyone should give up on anything.

 

As for you being sick of this topic and done with it.... why do you keep coming back and telling them to stop? I mean, they're free to discuss what they want. If you don't want to discuss or hear about it, then don't look at the board. Its a simple concept, really.

 

Soul, Hammy... carry on. I have learned alot about a lot of things from this discussion...

 

[Rangers]Uber