.....

[jane]

Are there no more questions?

 

 

"33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? 35 Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen."

 

Romans 11:33-36

[Watchtower]

Yeah I got one.. Given the recent talks about going to Mt.Arat to look for the Ark that they think may be there due to ice melting and satellite pictures I have a couple questions. Ok first one. If Noah embarked in his Ark with all the animals from somewhere in the middle east I presume, after 150 days or whatever, how was he only a few miles away from where he started? Was he anchored down or something? Shouldn't he have drifted quite a ways during that time?

 

I also thought about the fact that if indeed there Was a global flood that produced enough water to cover the earth to that depth(top of Mt Everest?), wouldn't all of that weight have thrown us off kilter with the sun? I've heard talks of just the little bit of moving dirt we do and production of things may eventually load down the earth and "mess us up a bit".

 

And another question, how many species of animals do you think there were on a boat how big? And tell me how you think that was physically possible. That's all for now

Just wanna know what you guys were taught and think..

[Playaa]

Was he anchored down or something? Shouldn't he have drifted quite a ways during that time?

that totally depends on the currents...his "boat" had absolutely nothing propelling it...just a big floating thing we call a "boat"

 

wouldn't all of that weight have thrown us off kilter with the sun?

only if that weight didn't already exist...the common belief is that the earth was sorrounded in a sort of canopy of water and it never rained then this canopy collapsed and came down all at once causing the flood...then the natural (well natural to us today) cycle of evaporation took hold and now the water is spread amongst the earth and the sky

 

how many species of animals do you think there were on a boat how big?

all of them? and I think I remember someone saying the boat was as long as 3 football fields?...maybe...

by the way, species only means each type of animal...i.e. 2 cats, 2 dogs, 2 birds...from there micro-evolution would take place

[appalachian_fox]

From what I understand, which is just Scientific American hearsay and the like, there is actual evidence of a world-wide flood where only the highest of mountains were not inundated. It's possible, and if it were to throw the Earth "off-course", perhaps it was "off-course" to begin with. Maybe if it was enough to change the orbit of the planet it put it where it needed to be for long-term viability. Who knows? Maybe the "off-courseness" created the conditions for a worldwide flood in the first place.

 

Why didn't he drift further? Why not? Think of it as a 2-D Markov chain. Nobody knows what the currents could have been like. I doubt Noah kept very good records, and even if he did we don't have them today. For all we know he could have been in a current that went in circles. There's no reason to suspect he had to go anywhere.

 

And I agree with Playaa on the animals bit. I mean, honestly, there's no way of knowing what was going on besides the little bit of scriptural evidence that exists, so whys and why nots...heck, they're all speculative.

 

Short answer...*shrug*

[Playaa]

Short answer...*shrug*

I concur...the flood is another one of those things that I don't feel like arguing about

[dwEEziL]

Isn't the Ark in related to Mr. Arat referring to the Ark of the Covenent, which was the container for the 10 commandments and Aaron's flower-budding staff? I think it is.

[Watchtower]

Isn't the Ark in related to Mr. Arat referring to the Ark of the Covenent, which was the container for the 10 commandments and Aaron's flower-budding staff?

 

No, they are talking about a boat. As a matter of fact, the Turkish govt has already found what they think to be Noahs Ark and have built a sort of national park on the site.. A Jehovas Witness gave me a "The Watchtower" with this big "breaking news" type artcle on the front.. Noone else musta thought much of it..

 

the common belief is that the earth was sorrounded in a sort of canopy of water and it never rained then this canopy collapsed and came down all at once

 

But didn't that already happen in Genesis?

 

and I think I remember someone saying the boat was as long as 3 football fields?...

 

450x75x45 feet..

 

by the way, species only means each type of animal...i.e. 2 cats, 2 dogs, 2 birds...from there micro-evolution would take place

 

Possible total of "species" of animal including unknown: 14,000,000.

Take away a few million for those in the sea and you still have say 2,000,000 species of animals to fit into 1,518,000 cubic feet of space.. And these are just "species". And if you believe at that point "micro-evolution" took over, do you recognize the time it would take for all of these changes to appear? Longer than 6,000 years right?

 

Fitting all the Animals..

 

I can't imagine someone being able to make a good argument.

That's really as far as I have to speculate. How could any of it be true to me if I find the whole premise to be impossible? And I can accept the "with God all things are possible" argument and I feel he could have built it 3 miles long and 400 feet deep. I don't think the limitations of man should be so apparent in a "Holy" tell it all.. I think it should be as truely amazing today as it was then.

[Playaa]

A Jehovas Witness gave me a "The Watchtower" with this big "breaking news" type artcle on the front.. Noone else musta thought much of it..

heh, Watch that was "breaking news" when I was 7 years old...he was just using it as a tool to witness to you

I can't imagine someone being able to make a good argument.

odd...almost exactly how I feel about Evolution outside of species...and yet people still believe in it.

[Watchtower]

We aren't talking about evolutional theories here tho.. We're talking about the Ark... How many animals? How much space? Possible? I wanted to talk about the evidence that supports it compared to the evidence against it..

 

And yeah, with some more research, it looks like that "Ark" was actually discovered in 1959.. But there are talks now of sending scientists to a new site up on the mountain where receeding snow is showing some sort of structure.. lemme see if I can find a link..

Ark

 

Heres a pic of the new site..

 

Anyone listen to Glenn Beck? This is what spurned my questions..

[NOFX]

I dont think the ark story is to be taken litterally....Just like any other story is. The purpose of these stories is to show you how Jesus can help you.

 

There is no way possible all those species could fit on at

450x75x45 feet boat. What are they going to eat for 40 days? If you did manage to squeeze the boat full of animals there would be no room left for food. And where did these animals crap? I bet it stunk.

 

Theres no way possible the earth could get heavier from all the rain. There is just as much water on this planet as there was when it started.

 

Evaporates from sea, goes to clouds, clouds carry to land, land carries back to sea(rivers), evaporates again. all this time its helping out living organisms on dry land as well.

 

You maybe able to learn from this particular story, but to think its true, you shouldnt.

 

Although, I will say...since all these stories have been passed down through generations by hearsay, you know they have been changed and exagerated. there did used to be floods back in the day. So there could have been a guy named noah that built a boat, threw a few animals on it and went out to sea, but I don't think there is enough water on the earth to make it rise all aboce Mt. Everest. Isnt that like 25,000 feet?

[Playaa]

I dont think the ark story is to be taken litterally....Just like any other story is. The purpose of these stories is to show you how Jesus can help you.

how is something from the OT before Jesus was born supposed to show how Jesus can help you?

 

There is no way possible all those species could fit on at

450x75x45 feet boat. What are they going to eat for 40 days? If you did manage to squeeze the boat full of animals there would be no room left for food. And where did these animals crap? I bet it stunk.

Watch mentioned above that there is no way micro evolution could have taken effect in 6,000 years like that...

here's the funny thing...you only say it's not possible because you already don't believe. Whereas me, I say it is possible because I already believe...so what's the point in even discussing this?

if God exists...pretty much he could do everything...he could have made Noah take 2 German Shepards on the Ark and start having Chihuahua and Poodle babies...but...since you don't believe God has that power, you're not going to believe in the Ark "story"...

 

You maybe able to learn from this particular story, but to think its true, you shouldnt.

why exactly shouldn't I think it's true?

 

Although, I will say...since all these stories have been passed down through generations by hearsay, you know they have been changed and exagerated. there did used to be floods back in the day. So there could have been a guy named noah that built a boat, threw a few animals on it and went out to sea.

except that part of the story says that it had never rained...

 

but I don't think there is enough water on the earth to make it rise all aboce Mt. Everest. Isnt that like 25,000 feet?

I'm pretty sure that if Antartica melted...our beaches would be moving...

 

also...the Bible never specifically says "species" or "genus" or anything like that...it just says "sort"...

 

but basically...like tons of arguments having to do with the Bible...you're not going to believe because you already don't...so why did you even bring this up Watch?

[Xterminator]

that is quite interesting. I was reading up on how they found something on top of Mt.Arat. But even so say they do find some wood and date it to back in the day. I'm not trying to be anti-christian here, but how can we prove it is the ark? or how can we prove it isn't the ark.

[Playaa]

that is quite interesting. I was reading up on how they found something on top of Mt.Arat. But even so say they do find some wood and date it to back in the day. I'm not trying to be anti-christian here, but how can we prove it is the ark? or how can we prove it isn't the ark.

no possible way unless it happens to say "Noah's Ark" across the bow

[NOFX]

I dont think the ark story is to be taken litterally....Just like any other story is. The purpose of these stories is to show you how Jesus can help you.

how is something from the OT before Jesus was born supposed to show how Jesus can help you?

 

Im sorry, I thought jesus told him to build the boat, i dont know specifics. But the moral of the story is, if your a good person, Jesus or God(whichever told him to build the boat) will be on your side. I guess your right jesus doesnt help you. But it teaches you morals, if you do good things, good things will happen to you.

 

There is no way possible all those species could fit on at

450x75x45 feet boat. What are they going to eat for 40 days? If you did manage to squeeze the boat full of animals there would be no room left for food. And where did these animals crap? I bet it stunk.

Watch mentioned above that there is no way micro evolution could have taken effect in 6,000 years like that...

here's the funny thing...you only say it's not possible because you already don't believe.  Whereas me, I say it is possible because I already believe...so what's the point in even discussing this?

if God exists...pretty much he could do everything...he could have made Noah take 2 German Shepards on the Ark and start having Chihuahua and Poodle babies...but...since you don't believe God has that power, you're not going to believe in the Ark "story"...

 

well now your talkin miracles with sheperds and poodles. Its not that I dont believe, its impossible for me to believe, Im an open-minded person, its just the fact it is physcially impossible for this to happen. why did God only save one family? was everyone in the world cruel? Im sure there was a few children out there that wasnt cruel.

 

What separates me from you is I believe what I see.

If you told me you got an A on your test, im not going to say you didnt, but i wont believe you until I see it.

 

Although, I will say...since all these stories have been passed down through generations by hearsay, you know they have been changed and exagerated. there did used to be floods back in the day. So there could have been a guy named noah that built a boat, threw a few animals on it and went out to sea.

except that part of the story says that it had never rained...

 

ah it didnt rain? i thoiught it rained for 40 days and 40 nights, either way to me its irrealivant. To me, I know they why the story of noah and the ark is in the bible. If you want to take it litterally and argue over little details, It seems to me your blinding yourself from what you are supposed to learn from it.

 

but I don't think there is enough water on the earth to make it rise all aboce Mt. Everest. Isnt that like 25,000 feet?

I'm pretty sure that if Antartica melted...our beaches would be moving...

 

also...the Bible never specifically says "species" or "genus" or anything like that...it just says "sort"...

 

Im not completely sure of this, but I did get an A in enviromental geology last semester. If all the water melts from all the iceburgs, dont we loose somewhere around 75% of what land we have?

 

the inland of america still exists as well as a few other places. For the water to rise 25,000 feet about the beaches we have now, we defintely need a new source of H20. Id guess that if we wanted to the water to rise 5 miles, we need about 3-4 times what we have stored in iceburgs

 

You maybe able to learn from this particular story, but to think its true, you shouldnt.

why exactly shouldn't I think it's true?

 

If I learned one thing from Intro to religion its this....

just about all major religions have some sort of "bible" that tells stories, these stories set many examples and show you ways you should follow and what happens to the ppl who don't.

 

There are many many buddhist stories, all of which teaches you morals and gives you some insight how humans should treat one another. (sounds alot like the "bible" or "koran"(yes I know I cant spell))

 

whether or not you believe every story is true in the christian bible is one thing. To let the stories soak in and acctually realize what its trying to get across to you is another.

Edited April 29, 2004 by NOFX

[Playaa]

well now your talkin miracles with sheperds and poodles. Its not that I dont believe, its impossible for me to believe, Im an open-minded person, its just the fact it is physcially impossible for this to happen.

 

think about that for a second...then use logic and think about it. you just said that an all-powerful God could not do something...therefore that thing couldn't have been done...

now think about that again.

 

why did God only save one family? was everyone in the world cruel? Im sure there was a few children out there that wasnt cruel.

read the story, it tells

 

ah it didnt rain? i thoiught it rained for 40 days and 40 nights

no I said it "had never rained"...past tense...it hadn't rained ever before (common belief is the whole canopy of water over the earth that collapsed causing the 40 days and 40 nights raining)

 

If you want to take it litterally and argue over little details, It seems to me your blinding yourself from what you are supposed to learn from it.

I don't want to argue over a thing...but people who constantly tell me that what I believe is a fairy tale and then expect me to just bow before them and acknowledge their genious...yeah...those people kinda force me to it.

 

Im not completely sure of this, but I did get an A in enviromental geology last semester. If all the water melts from all the iceburgs, dont we loose somewhere around 75% of what land we have?

 

the inland of america still exists as well as a few other places. For the water to rise 25,000 feet about the beaches we have now, we defintely need a new source of H20. Id guess that if we wanted to the water to rise 5 miles, we need about 3-4 times what we have stored in iceburgs

I have no idea...care to show me evidence either way?

 

To let the stories soak in and acctually realize what its trying to get across to you is another.

see what I said above...I know plenty about the message of the Bible...but I won't sit idly by while people tell me that I'm an idiot for believing in fairy tales (that's what people imply even though few say it)

[Xterminator]

that is quite interesting. I was reading up on how they found something on top of Mt.Arat. But even so say they do find some wood and date it to back in the day. I'm not trying to be anti-christian here, but how can we prove it is the ark? or how can we prove it isn't the ark.

no possible way unless it happens to say "Noah's Ark" across the bow

What kinda wine bottle do you think Moses used to Christen the Ark?

[Playaa]

probably something pretty old

 

*ba dum bum CHING!*

[Watchtower]

since you don't believe God has that power

 

If this was directed at me, didn't you see where I said God could have made a bigger boat? And as far as the animals eating, God could have kept them healthy and what not. THat is not an issue with me. The issue is the constraints Man put on the size of the Ark in the Bible. Back then boats were probably more of a personal vessel and noone had ever seen one more than say 10 foot long.. Maybe 20 or 30 max. So when you told me back in the day of one 450 foot long, that seemed unimaginable and awe-inspiring.. Also realize people didn't grasp the vastness of the world and it's inhabitants. So they only really knew the animals that they could see or have been documented. Also realize that it is believed that 99% of the species of animals that have inhabited the Earth are now extinct. So I do believe that God is All powerfull. And I believe(with plenty of certainty and evidence) that the biblical account of Noah's Ark is unsound for many reasons. And I ask because as long as I can remember, this is the One thing that stood out to me about the bible. I cannot get over this. And I don't see how someone could look at it logically and believe it. That's why I asked what people that believed were taught(what they actually believe). I'm not telling you you are wrong, I'm just wondering how you could think that way... So far I haven't seen anything but some incorrect figures that try to make the Ark bigger than it was and to make the number of animals seem smaller than there really are. i don't think this topic is ever discussed in depth by believers. It's a "just believe it" type of thing, no?

 

One more question, dinosaurs were on the Ark right? Ark = 450 foot long. 1 Argentinosaurus measures up to 130 feet long. Start adding the rest of the huge Dinos, Mammoths, insects, etc and.. You get the point. Waaaay too small. It could have seemed possible back then though.

[Playaa]

Also realize that it is believed that 99% of the species of animals that have inhabited the Earth are now extinct.

where'd you hear that? just interested...I mean wouldn't we have tons of fossils and skeletons from animals we've never seen?

 

and it wasn't really directed at you...it was more that I was having a really crappy day at work and I spoke (wrote) in frustration

sorry

 

and I've never been able to figure out why people say Dino's were on the ark...there's no evidence for it and what you pointed out is evidence against it so I'm willing to bet they weren't there...

[Watchtower]

Ok I see.. One could believe that the Dinos came and went during the time of modern man..

 

where'd you hear that? just interested...I mean wouldn't we have tons of fossils and skeletons from animals we've never seen?

 

As a matter of fact Yes.. And I believe we continue to find new ones everyday. Remember we have only been digging "intelligently" how many years? Shoot, we find new Living species all the time. Rain forests and deep seas provide many new animals and new explainations.. The first link gives the estimate of 2% to 4% of remaining species.. Which would make my 99% figure 96 to 98%.. Still a whole heck of a lot..

 

On species and extinction..

 

Example of new Living species..

 

7 new species in Bolivia

 

Sad.. New species found just as it's home is lost...

 

New Hominid species..

 

 

And see about the Dinos.. I've seen an attempt to rationalize this topic by figuring that all the animals were juvenile.. Which brings me to the conclusion that if all the "kinds of animals" were in embryonic form, it could almost seem feasible to me. But the Bible says they walked in 2x2 or was it in threes?

[Playaa]

2x2

however the juvenile part does hold a bit of argument (not embryonic just babies)

I mean we're talking 40 days and 40 nights...so pretty much 40 days...no baby animal is going to grow up that fast

 

and as for the Dinos...I really have no idea...because without the flood...there isn't really any evidence of something to make them extinct...apart from the fact that we have an undetermined amount of time between Adam and Even and Noah...

but most Christians believe the whole "canopy of water" view and when that canopy collapsed to create the flood the world wide tropic environments that the dinos thrived in didn't exist anymore...and so the dinos died.

now I really don't know a thing about that view...just throwing it out there...I've never researched it

[Playaa]

idea

 

was Noah before or after the tower of Babel?

 

if it was prior to...that could mean the local flood really was all that took place (although all the evidence I've seen to support that theory hasn't convinced me) but considering all the worlds people lived in the same area...then technically that would be a "worldwide flood"...

just a thought

[Watchtower]

I'd say after? Wasn't Babel addressed in Genesis before Noah?

 

And about the water canopy thing. I know this is the belief held about Genesis and the creation of the earth, but I've never heard of it refered to talking about Noah. Common perception is that God made it Rain for 40 days 40 nights..... No? Isn't that what it says in the bible? God made it rain? How could someone come up with some water canpoy idea from that?!

[Playaa]

I think it hasta do with evidence of massive animals that are still alive today that could ONLY have survived in a tropical setting...(think a dragonfly with a foot long wingspan)...and humans living longer (based upon the Bible's records) and humans being larger way back when (though not necessarily giants)...so someone came up with a THEORY of the canopy of water...and then someone applied that to the flood and said "look, if this canopy of water that made the entire world a greenhouse were to collapse...that'd be alot of rain for a long time...and then it would eventually break into the normal cycle of evaporation and the world wouldn't be a greenhouse anymore so the poles would freeze now"

that's the general idea and it's nothing more than a theory

[Watchtower]

Yeah never heard that before.. I would think all the water in the atmosphere would kill the sunlight(necessary for life). Think a storm cloud times 1000. So water canopy when the world was created, then God sepearted when forming everything, then Another water canopy being created to produce the flood?