appalachian_fox May 1, 2004 Share appalachian_fox Member May 1, 2004 This is a good convo, guys...Very interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playaa May 1, 2004 Share Playaa Member May 1, 2004 don't think like clouds though....think more like a wall of water sorrounding the earth...but held to the earth by it's gravity (like a sattellite does) and this wall of water would allow sunlight through and THEN would create a greenhouse effect (because water and glass...both clear and all that) and trap the heat inside the atmosphere...so not only is the entire planet warmer but also there is water literally everywhere in mist form... that's the theory...kinda odd but actually somewhat sound (assuming you believe God put the water there in the first place) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trouble .gc May 1, 2004 Share Trouble .gc Member May 1, 2004 just a question for you, that will lead into my following question after my question is answered...but when were you taught that the book of genisis was written? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower May 1, 2004 Share Watchtower Member May 1, 2004 Wait tho.. Even though it is just a "wall of water", sunlight does not penetrate very well.. Look at the ocean.. Even in my aquarium, light does not penetrate well.. And it's only 24" deep.. Some corals and stuff couldn't survive on the bottom of my tank.. And you are saying that happened twice? Once in the beginning of genesis and once for the flood? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower May 2, 2004 Share Watchtower Member May 2, 2004 Any other takers? What are your beliefs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwEEziL May 2, 2004 Share dwEEziL Member May 2, 2004 The "water canopy" was created on the second day of creation. It was when God separated the waters from one another. Until the time of the flood, the water canopy encompassed the whole globe, keeping a temperate climate over the entire planet and there was no rain. This was why the general populace thought Noah was nuts when at 120 years old, he was preaching that God was going to flood the earth with rain for 40 days and 40 nights and he was building a big boat in preparation. They were like "What's rain?" http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?l...-8&version=NASB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower May 2, 2004 Share Watchtower Member May 2, 2004 This was why the general populace thought Noah was nuts when at 120 years old, he was preaching that God was going to flood the earth with rain for 40 days and 40 nights and he was building a big boat in preparation. They were like "What's rain?" Where do you get this info from? And about the water canopy. Our atmospheric pressure is created by all the gasses in our atmosphere pressing down on us. A blanket of water able to cover the earth(4.4 billion cubic kilometers of water) would create a pressure estimated to be 900 atmospheres.. Approximately equal to the pressure five and a half miles deep in the ocean. Doesn't seem likely at all.. Now if you thought the water was Waaaay out there, and the Sun was inside this firmament, then you could almost imagine that happening. That's not how it is thought though.. If these theories could be postulated as being even remotely true, they would garner much more acceptance and respect in the scientific field.. This is simply not the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jane May 3, 2004 Author Share jane Member May 3, 2004 in response to trouble, i was taught that it was written by Moses. Along with Exodus, Numbers, Deuteronomy and Leviticus. Around the time of Rameses The Great, Pharaoh of Egypt. I dont remember dates, but possibly 1600 BC?..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playaa May 3, 2004 Share Playaa Member May 3, 2004 yeah, sorry trouble...meant to answer that yep, written by Moses (inspired by God) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Kill3r May 3, 2004 Share All Kill3r Member May 3, 2004 This was why the general populace thought Noah was nuts when at 120 years old, he was preaching that God was going to flood the earth with rain for 40 days and 40 nights and he was building a big boat in preparation. They were like "What's rain?" Where do you get this info from? And about the water canopy. Our atmospheric pressure is created by all the gasses in our atmosphere pressing down on us. A blanket of water able to cover the earth(4.4 billion cubic kilometers of water) would create a pressure estimated to be 900 atmospheres.. Approximately equal to the pressure five and a half miles deep in the ocean. Doesn't seem likely at all.. Now if you thought the water was Waaaay out there, and the Sun was inside this firmament, then you could almost imagine that happening. That's not how it is thought though.. If these theories could be postulated as being even remotely true, they would garner much more acceptance and respect in the scientific field.. This is simply not the case. interesting post. Do gasses not dissipate over time, especially water vapor in the sun light. The pressure of the atmosphere wouldnt actually change much but would be very very humid. Pressure of a gas and pressure of a liquid cannot be directly compared unless your talking psi in a given container. The atmosphere doesnt have an exact boundry, could grow or shrink with changes in pressure i would assume. given that behind this atmosphere is a vaccum and in front is gravity pulling from the mass of Earth. There is not enough water on Earth in any form to submerge it. Was all of Earth submerged in the story from the floods ? Water does not leave Earth, we have the same amount of water now as we have had ever. Thats why it rains. Those arent facts ( though they could be lol ) just speculation be me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwEEziL May 3, 2004 Share dwEEziL Member May 3, 2004 Water canopy - http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-128.htm This link seems to debunk the water canopy idea - http://www.icr.org/research/lv/lv-r05.htm - but also seems to make the assumption that all the water from the flood came from the water canopy whereas my belief is that some of the water came from underground springs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower May 3, 2004 Share Watchtower Member May 3, 2004 Kill3r, I believe the bible says that it cover up to 20ft over the highest peaks.. It just seems very far fetched even with divine inspiration the way the bible tells it. Which must be accurate. See how many non-biased(Christian) websites that support any of the global flood stories.. If there were any, we would have no choice but to believe.. Kinda like gravity. I'll say it again, all I need is one good reason to believe any of it. Just one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower May 3, 2004 Share Watchtower Member May 3, 2004 How about an approximate date for the flood? Since the Earth can only be 6000 years, when was the flood? I've heard something like around the same time as the Great Pyramids being built.. I'll also encourage anyone interested in this topic to look at This website. Logic at work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwEEziL May 4, 2004 Share dwEEziL Member May 4, 2004 I have always believed the earth to be ~10,000 years old but I have no link for that. Let me look around a bit and I will post up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playaa May 4, 2004 Share Playaa Member May 4, 2004 I've always thought it was in the 10k region as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower May 4, 2004 Share Watchtower Member May 4, 2004 Ok, also try to figure out when it is believed the great pyramids were being built and how long they think it took them. Then think about when the flood was purported to have occured. Then think about documentation of a global flood that wiped out everything on the planet. Then think about why this was not documented by Every civilization. Then post up While I was thinking about this, If Everyone was wiped out, and the earth re-populated by only noah and his sons, how can there be such variance in languages, customs, religions over such a short period of time? I would think that everyone should ahve similar beliefs Especially being so close to an actual act of God.. This should have been profound and undeniable. I think Playaa may have refered to this in asking about the tower of Babel.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playaa May 4, 2004 Share Playaa Member May 4, 2004 Babel occured AFTER the flood...(flood was in Genesis 6 and Babel is in Genesis 10 to 11) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower May 5, 2004 Share Watchtower Member May 5, 2004 Ok so that can explain the language.. How about beliefs? If your great great grandfaters great great grandfather was saved by god while the rest of the world perished, you would certainly know that had hold it very true in your heart.. They were all related no? How about dates? Pyramids and civilizations regarding a flood.. What date do you approximate the flood? And why do you think there is no sound proof of a biblical flood? Your answer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower May 6, 2004 Share Watchtower Member May 6, 2004 ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playaa May 6, 2004 Share Playaa Member May 6, 2004 If your great great grandfaters great great grandfather was saved by god while the rest of the world perished, you would certainly know that had hold it very true in your heart.. They were all related no? I've seen people forget about great things that happened in their lifetime. You really believe the human race would be grateful enough to remember for that long what really happened? (and actually don't most ancient cultures have stories of the flood?) think about the Isrealites...God did miracles for them ALOT...heck every seventh day he provided a breadlike food for them and yet in their lifetimes they forgot about all he had done for them. How about dates? Pyramids and civilizations regarding a flood.. What date do you approximate the flood? And why do you think there is no sound proof of a biblical flood? honestly, I don't care...all I have to go on are other peoples opinions (the same as you have to go on)...and I've since learned that if you have 40 scientists you'll have 41 opinions. They might all agree on some points but they frequently disagree on the little things... so basically...this topic is something I find pointless because it neither affirms nor detracts from my beliefs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower May 7, 2004 Share Watchtower Member May 7, 2004 God did miracles for them ALOT...heck every seventh day he provided a breadlike food for them and yet in their lifetimes they forgot about all he had done for them. Isn't this why they eat Mahtso or whatever(unleavened bread)? I think the jews hold closer to their traditions and beliefs that most other religions so yes I think they Are trying to remember what was done for them.. An example of the point I'm trying to make is this. Take your last name. Have you ever wondered where it came from? Like mine, basically meant "grave-digger" or so 'm told.. Smiths were smiths of some sort(blacksmith, woodsmiths etc).. Some people derive meaning from this still centuries later.. If you family was saved by god, this would be passed down and accepted fully by your children. "Gosh mom, we were spared by God! How special are we!". I don't think this could be forgotten by Anyone. Ancestry is very old and important knowledge. honestly, I don't care...all I have to go on are other peoples opinions (the same as you have to go on)...and I've since learned that if you have 40 scientists you'll have 41 opinions. They might all agree on some points but they frequently disagree on the little things...so basically...this topic is something I find pointless because it neither affirms nor detracts from my beliefs Well if someone told me that the world was underwater at a certain time, and there is unsurmountable evidence that life was going on business as usual, I would have to wonder.. As many do. There is plenty of indisputable evidence against a global flood. No indisputable evidence For it. Christian thinking.. Hmm ProofS against.. You have to scroll down past the stuff about holding all the animals and caring for them. Although this raises good points as well.. Show me some proof For a global flood.. I can't find any.. and actually don't most ancient cultures have stories of the flood? Not really.. Only the ones located in regions where floods naturally occur. Just like the ones by volcanoes had those types of stories.. The ones up north have blizzard fables etc.. Some flood fables.. Search "epic of Gilgamesh" Book III, Brahmanism, Ch. I, The Early Vedic Religion, p. 189: In the Satapatha-Brahmana, perhaps the most interesting of all these books, there is found an early tradition of a flood. Manu, a holy man, was warned by a fish that a flood would sweep away all creatures, but he would rescue him. He was directed to build a ship and enter it when the flood rose; he did so, and fastened the fish to the ship, and was drawn by it beyond the northern mountains. When the flood subsided Manu was the only man left; a daughter was mysteriously born to him by virtue of religious rites, and ultimately the world was peopled with the sons of Manu. In later times it was said that the fish was an incarnation of Brahma, who assumed that form in order to preserve Manu. The deluge, according to the Chaldean epic, was due to the judgment of the gods Anu, Bel, and Ninip, and Ea told the "man of Surripak", Samas-Napiati (the living sun), to build a ship to preserve plants and living beings; it was to be 600 cubits long, and 60 broad and high. Numerous details of the building and construction are given; and Xisuthrus with his people, and animals, and plants, and food had entered the ship, "the waters of dawn arose at daybreak, a black cloud from the horizon of heaven. Rimmon in the midst of it thundered, and Nebo and the wind-god went in front." The earth was covered, and all living things destroyed. Even the gods were afraid at the whirlwind,and took refuge in the heaven of Anu. After six days and nights the storm abated, and the rain ceased, and the wind and deluge ended. "I watched the sea making a noise, and the whole of mankind were turned to clay, like reeds the corpses floated...In the country of Nizir (east of Assyria) rested the ship; the mountain of Nizir stopped the ship,and to pass over it it was not able...On the seventh day I sent forth a dove, and it left. The dove went, it returned, and a resting-place it did not find, and it came back." Later a raven was sent forth, and it did not return. Then the ship was opened, the animals came forth, sacrifice was offered to the gods, and Xisuthrus became the father of Izdubar, himself being later translated to live as a god. We cannot attempt a detailed comparison of the Chaldean and Noachian floods, for which reference must be made to Professor Sayce's edition of Mr. Smith's "Chaldean Account of Genesis"; but we may remark that this deluge narrative, perhaps more than anything else, shows how closely the narratives in Genesis are related to Chaldean traditions or sources of information. In the great Epic of Izdubar or Gishubar, also discovered by Mr. Smith in 1872, we have a Semitic translation of the exploits of an early Accadian king or primitive Hercules, arranged on a solar plan [reference to the format of the tablets? not sure], which accords with the representation of the hero as sun-god. In many ways the events recorded in the epic correspond to the twelve labours of Hercules; and it may be that the Izdubar legend is one of the early forms from which Phoenicia and then Greece derived the famous myth. The most perfect tablet is that which describes a deluge, which has been very generally identified with that of Noah. The character of Izdubar corresponds exactly to that of Nimrod in Genesis; and it is not certain that the names may not be identical, for Izdubar is but a provisional rendering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playaa May 7, 2004 Share Playaa Member May 7, 2004 There is plenty of indisputable evidence against a global flood. No indisputable evidence For it. so basically myself and everyone who believes in the flood including scientists are idiots? as for the Jews remembering...have you finished reading the OT? remember the part where Isreal fled from Egypt? read it again...you'll see ALOT of forgetting about God's miracles. Now you and I today would probably freak out and remember them for our entire lives...but we live in a different world...God's miracles were "more commonplace" then (not a proper description but you get what I mean)...compare it to if they saw an airplane...they'd remember it forever...you and I wouldn't even notice. as for evidence of the flood...like I said...I don't care...because all it does when people fight and debate and argue about stuff like this is draw away from the true message of the Bible...so if you really want to pick apart every sentence in the Bible...feel free...it's your choice...but God has never been a fan of legalism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower May 8, 2004 Share Watchtower Member May 8, 2004 Now you and I today would probably freak out and remember them for our entire lives...but we live in a different world...God's miracles were "more commonplace" then (not a proper description but you get what I mean)...compare it to if they saw an airplane...they'd remember it forever...you and I wouldn't even notice. Not a real good analogy.. We are not talking about your average run of the mill miracle here.. Your Family(what was more important than family and lineage back then) was Chosen by God to live and inhabit the earth.. Kinda like how the Jews today believe they are "Chosen" right? Somewhere else in written history should have some of this documented and or proof should be there.. But it's not. If you are to tell me something is indesputable, it should be just that. so basically myself and everyone who believes in the flood including scientists are idiots? i didn't say that, I jsut asked for links.. I looked myself and couldn't find any Reputable ones.. If it is Fact and Truth, shouldn't there be evidence? I'm not picking apart every sentance, just the one I have the biggest problem with. If I am to believe that something is the word of God and without error, that is my quest. I did alright until I got to the Ark and the Young Earth idea.. Noone seems able to explain it. For instance, do you believe the rings in the trunks of trees give a good estimate of their lifespan? Or the layers of ice in the polar caps? These somewhere, would show evidence of a disaster around the time precisely stated in the bible. Somewhere in the Egyptian documents should show a disasterous flood.. The Earth Cannot be only 6000 years old. You have Mountains of evidence supporting otherwise, and only a handfull of "selective" science that tries to prove it. Like I said, find me some links so I can shut up As far as scientist and researchers go, there are more than just 2 sides.. It's not a 2 sided debate. Those not totally enthralled with biblical literalism and their "absolute truths" should be able to believe in the science of it.. But they don't.. I'm talking Christians.. Does that make them any worse as Christians? No, I'd just say a little more realistic. To me it's a matter of believing a "scientist" from the Institue of Creation Research or one that works for NASA in their Jet Propulsion Laboratory.. The truely informed, unbiased minds agree somewhat. This is not even a debate really.. I'll wait for your "proof".. Any of it. And I don't want anyone to think my lifes goal is to prove Christianity wrong.. It may appear that way at times, but I am just a thinker looking for answers that many say they have.. Yet do not satisfy. I am a naturalist.. Very in tune with nature and the life that inhabits the earth.. Big and small(i detest mosquitos). And I'm getting tired, good night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower May 9, 2004 Share Watchtower Member May 9, 2004 Links if you can provide them.. While watching the Science Channel tonight I couldn't help but wonder what people thought while watching many of the programs talking about geological dates and the like.. Very few people believe in the young earth scenario which is evident by the amount of information shared on shows like this.. Not just limiting it to the Science channel either.. Any type of geologic or archaeologic program on say Natural Geopraghic, Discovery Channel etc.. Do you pass this off as misinformation? Do you not watch many programs like this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appalachian_fox May 9, 2004 Share appalachian_fox Member May 9, 2004 I think we can all agree to detest mosquitoes. Yay closure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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