Guest zerodamage July 21, 2004 Share Guest zerodamage Guests July 21, 2004 I can not go into details here. We should be seeing official performance results with Doom3 in the next couple of days and apparently ATI doesn't do too well. I think we already knew this. And if Nvidia's cards are still using a different rendering path instead of the default ARB2 path which is the default DX9 path, then they will of course out perform ATI. Also keep in mind that Nvidia is a better OGL performer than ATI (at this time). I think we will see just the opposite results with HL2. Also, the min system requirements are quite high. Like a 1.5, Radeon 8500/GF4, 512MB, 2 Gig of space, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bullet-401 July 21, 2004 Share bullet-401 Member July 21, 2004 Me want game. Give me now game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Mmmm]Homer July 21, 2004 Share [Mmmm]Homer Member July 21, 2004 Oh yeah the ARB2 path...... As for min. requirements the Radeon 8500 won't play Farcry, and I mean unplayable on an 8500/2ghz/512mb system, so D3 is no surprise. Upgrades are good. Upgrades are fun. That's why we're here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Kill3r July 21, 2004 Share All Kill3r Member July 21, 2004 We should be seeing official performance results with Doom3 in the next couple of days and apparently ATI doesn't do too well. im not worried one bit... can't wait for it to go retail ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zerodamage July 21, 2004 Share Guest zerodamage Guests July 21, 2004 can't wait for it to go retail ! Auguest 2nd or 4th or something like that. Less than 2 weeks away!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Kill3r July 21, 2004 Share All Kill3r Member July 21, 2004 holy smokes ! i didn't know that soon woooooooooot ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zerodamage July 22, 2004 Share Guest zerodamage Guests July 22, 2004 Ah. Seems I am correct. HardOCP already has Benchmarks out You can view them Here Now, I want you all to think about this before jumping on the 6800 GT bandwagon. Remember that Nvidia cards sucked at FarCry performance until a driver update fixed most of it. Well Nvidia has always been top notch in OpenGL games like Doom3. ATI will have a driver update probably soon that will address the performance issues. It makes sense if you think about how the X800 cards beat the 6800 cards in most other games especially with AA and AF turned on. So do not jump on a card because of one game like many people seem to be doing. Not that the GT isn't a great card, because it is. Never good to buy a vid card for one game though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatty July 22, 2004 Share Fatty GC Founder July 22, 2004 My ATI card spits on and pwns D3! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Mmmm]Homer July 22, 2004 Share [Mmmm]Homer Member July 22, 2004 I was at Fry's today and reached for the PNY 6800 GT for $399 and hesitated, then walked away. I'm just about to get paid on a side job but would had to put this on the credit card. I wasn't sure if that was a great price, I checked pricewatch when I got back to the office and they run about $389 on the net. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOFX July 22, 2004 Share NOFX Member July 22, 2004 Homer,Jul 21 2004, 09:50 PM] I was at Fry's today and reached for the PNY 6800 GT for $399 and hesitated, then walked away. i hear that man, Ive been looing at them on the net for a week or so, must....not...click...submit order...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crowbar July 22, 2004 Share Crowbar Member July 22, 2004 Homer, you really think it's time for upgrade already!?! You just bought that 9800 Pro (as did I) a few months ago. How long did your previous card last you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Kill3r July 22, 2004 Share All Kill3r Member July 22, 2004 Homer knows he can easily sell that 9800pro and have a 6800GT for half price and double the performance Upgrading while your hardware still has a little resell value isn't always a bad idea like the majority of people seem to think. Buy a x800pro/6800gt now, resell when the next new card comes out and get it for half price. Do that everytime, same with your cpu's, don't wait until its obselete before you think about selling it, sell it when the price starts to plummet so you can get something back out of it to apply to the next purchase. Buying obselete stuff is good, selling it is bad. I really trying not to build a athlon rig right now, their so cheap though and i could sell off my old stuff if i had 2 pc's.. see how the PC world works ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiZad July 25, 2004 Share RiZad Member July 25, 2004 Well Nvidia has always been top notch in OpenGL games like Doom3. ATI will have a driver update probably soon that will address the performance issues. So they are gonna fix the OGL problems they have had for years just like that? Haven't they been tring that for a long time now with driver update after driver update? i guess they were just hiding it in the magic bag for Doom 3? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdman July 25, 2004 Share Birdman Member July 25, 2004 (edited) So they are gonna fix the OGL problems they have had for years just like that? Haven't they been tring that for a long time now with driver update after driver update? i guess they were just hiding it in the magic bag for Doom 3? I'm kinda with Riz here. I dont see ATI "fixing" anything related to speed with an opengl driver update. I started with ATI when the original Radeon came out and opengl has always been slower for ati than direct x when comparing to the competition. I doubt ATI would lose in opengl benchmarks this long just to make their users suffer till doom 3 came out and caused some obvious lack of opengl speed to rear it's head. The drivers from ATI will improve no doubt. But I don't see ATI matching Nvidia's Doom 3 experience with this round of video cards. ATI seems to really have bet the farm on direct x and the number of games that use it. That isn't a bad thing necessarily; until an opengl game like doom 3 comes out that is going to be a big time blockbuster. Again though, in the majority of games that are out today, ATI is gonna offer the best gaming experience with the highest image quality possible (Higher FPS with a higher level of AA and AF enabled). Another good thing to note is that this is really the first time since nvidia’s geforce 4(which soundly put to rest by the 9700 in late 2002) that they have been able to have a video card line that is popular with a majority of gamers. ATI has forced Nvidia to work harder and I think the midrange 6800 series(that can be compared to the very successful Ti4200 card) is a direct result of some very good competition between the two companies. Edited July 25, 2004 by Birdman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zerodamage July 25, 2004 Share Guest zerodamage Guests July 25, 2004 What you guys have been seeing the past couple of years of driver updates is just a modification of the current OGL driver. People know that there is a rewrite of the OGL drivers in the works and it could be a year or more before we see it. What I referring to right now is that the current drivers can be tweaked and optimized to run Doom3 a little better. (I am trying to clarify without breaking NDA). As for the Doom3 performance. Look at it like this. Nvidia's flagship cards, the 6800 gt and ultra beat the xt pe by 5 -7 fps on only Doom3. Now Nvidia's cards have Ultra Shadow II (Doom3 is primarily a shadow/stencil based game) and 32x0 Z clear which also is a huge performance booster for shadows and stencil based games. ATI cards do not have any of that and come within a few fps of Nvidia in Doom3. Also, there was a specific rendering path for Nvidia for Doom3 called the NV30 path. Then there is the Arb2 path which is the normal reference path. ATI has been running on the ARB2 rendering path since day one where Nvidia's 5800+ cards have been running on the NV30 path. ID basically migrated the NV30 path into the ARB2 path so Nvidia is still getting the performance boost from this special path for them. ATI's XT PE is still within a few fps. This shows how powerful ATI"s card really is if you think about it. It also shows how much of a lamer Carmack is also. Back when the NV30 and ARB2 path's existed, the Nvidia cards got stomped on the ARB2 path if they both used it mainly because Nvidia went for a proprietary DX9 design rather than a straight forward like ATI's. What he's done now is make it nearly impossible for an apples to apples comparison. The Nvidia cards are getting an Advantage with their CG coding being integrated into the ARB2 path. Nvidia is also dropping their precision down to 16-bit in most cases where ATI's is locked at 24-bit all the time (24-bit is the requirement for DX9 specification). You can bet that ATI will have better Image Quality in Doom3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Kill3r July 25, 2004 Share All Kill3r Member July 25, 2004 I think you're right Rizad. ogl has been slower for ati since forever it seems, i don't think a driver is going to appear soon that turns this around. Doom 3 not running as good on ATI as it does on Nvidia though isn't going to hurt ATI one bit, they win the rest of the games almost... so how much longer till Doom 3 is on shelfs ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdman July 26, 2004 Share Birdman Member July 26, 2004 so how much longer till Doom 3 is on shelfs ? Next Week. Here is Ati's stance on the early Doom 3 benchmakrs that were posted on the [H]. "This is a non issue - Doom 3 isn't even available yet, and we all know that some of our competitors use partial precision where possible. We expect to have updated drivers available in the coming weeks." ...And btw, let's not lose sight of the fact that ATI performance isn't relatively poor at all. I think Kyle himself said that even the X800pro delivered 'great' performance, and Carmack said in the HardOCP article that there's more to consider than just frame rate. " "Doom 3 gamers will get an excellent experience across the whole range of RADEON cards, right from entry-level X300 to the high-end X800 XT Platinum Edition. Our driver and hardware teams will continue to analyze Doom 3 across the range of resolutions and RADEON gamers can expect to see even better performance in future. The X800 remains the fastest card for the majority of games played today and for games being launched in the near future." Can't wait to see how well their work pays off in Doom 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Kill3r July 26, 2004 Share All Kill3r Member July 26, 2004 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zerodamage July 27, 2004 Share Guest zerodamage Guests July 27, 2004 Nvidia cards are designed with Doom3 in mind with the extra features for Shadows and Stencils. I think Nvidia made their cards this way knowing Doom3 would be a huge hit and to sell some cards. IT really is marketing genius at work. I mean who doesn't know what Doom is? Even my wife knows what Doom is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zerodamage July 27, 2004 Share Guest zerodamage Guests July 27, 2004 Oh yeah, there is a new .plan by id posted that explains the different games settings. Check it out HERE Very good info about the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwEEziL July 27, 2004 Share dwEEziL Member July 27, 2004 Nvidia cards are designed with Doom3 in mind with the extra features for Shadows and Stencils. I think Nvidia made their cards this way knowing Doom3 would be a huge hit and to sell some cards. IT really is marketing genius at work. I mean who doesn't know what Doom is? Even my wife knows what Doom is. Might be marketing genius but still pretty shady in my eyes. Not everyone buys a new video card bi-annually. Some people hold on to the same card for years. To build a vid card to specifically cater to one individual game, and not specifically promote it like that, would be close to unethical and dishonest. Not that my opinion will change nVidia's mind or anything, just ranting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdman July 27, 2004 Share Birdman Member July 27, 2004 Might be marketing genius but still pretty shady in my eyes. I think so too. Anyone else see the fact that a 512MB video card is required for the Ultra mode in Doom 3? That's sick nasty. "In Ultra quality, we load each texture; diffuse, specular, normal map at full resolution with no compression. In a typical DOOM 3 level, this can hover around a whopping 500MB of texture data. This will run on current hardware but obviously we cannot fit 500MB of texture data onto a 256MB card and the amount of texture data referenced in a give scene per frame ( 60 times a second ) can easily be 50MB+. This can cause some choppiness as a lot of memory bandwidth is being consumed. It does however look fantastic :-) and it is certainly playable on high end systems but due to the hitching that can occur we chose to require a 512MB Video card before setting this automatically. High quality uses compression ( DXT1,3,5 ) for specular and diffuse and no compression for normal maps. This looks very very close to Ultra quality but the compression does cause some loss. This is the quality that for instance the PC Gamer review was played in. Medium quality uses compression for specular, diffuse, and normal maps. This still looks really really good but compressing the normal maps can produce a few artifacts especially on hard angled or round edges. This level gets us comfortably onto 128MB video cards. Low quality does everything medium quality does but it also downsizes textures over 512x512 and we downsize specular maps to 64x64 in this mode as well. This fits us onto a 64MB video card. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zerodamage July 27, 2004 Share Guest zerodamage Guests July 27, 2004 (edited) Might be marketing genius but still pretty shady in my eyes. I think so too. Anyone else see the fact that a 512MB video card is required for the Ultra mode in Doom 3? That's sick nasty. "In Ultra quality, we load each texture; diffuse, specular, normal map at full resolution with no compression. In a typical DOOM 3 level, this can hover around a whopping 500MB of texture data. This will run on current hardware but obviously we cannot fit 500MB of texture data onto a 256MB card and the amount of texture data referenced in a give scene per frame ( 60 times a second ) can easily be 50MB+. This can cause some choppiness as a lot of memory bandwidth is being consumed. It does however look fantastic :-) and it is certainly playable on high end systems but due to the hitching that can occur we chose to require a 512MB Video card before setting this automatically. High quality uses compression ( DXT1,3,5 ) for specular and diffuse and no compression for normal maps. This looks very very close to Ultra quality but the compression does cause some loss. This is the quality that for instance the PC Gamer review was played in. Medium quality uses compression for specular, diffuse, and normal maps. This still looks really really good but compressing the normal maps can produce a few artifacts especially on hard angled or round edges. This level gets us comfortably onto 128MB video cards. Low quality does everything medium quality does but it also downsizes textures over 512x512 and we downsize specular maps to 64x64 in this mode as well. This fits us onto a 64MB video card. " I do not think they necessarily did it for just that one game. Remember, Quake-3 engine has been used for most fps games out there. There is a thinking that the Doom-3 engine will be used by many other games including RTCW-2, the next Jedi Knight game (Rumors), Quake-4, etc. So Nvidia's cards will work well on those games as well. I think ATI will implement some sort of Shadowing and Stencil improvements on their next cards. id should implement 3dc compression into Doom3, it would help ATI's newest cards a whole lot. HL2 will use 3dc..... *drools* Edited July 27, 2004 by zerodamage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdman July 27, 2004 Share Birdman Member July 27, 2004 id should implement 3dc compression into Doom3, it would help ATI's newest cards a whole lot. Yes they should. CryTek seems to be the smartest bunch out of all the big name game developers. They supported Nvidia's PS 3.0 stuffs and are gonna support ATI's 3dc soon. ATI Strikes Back. I can't seem to find out why Doom 3 supports a Geforce 4MX card(a direct x 7 rebadged Geforce 2) and only supports ATI's 8500 level of cards and not their 7200-7500 series of cards. I thought that doom 3 would require at least a card capable of direct x 8 features(Geforce 3 and Radeon 8500 or higher), but if id is supporting a Geforce 4MX then that doesnt seem to be the case. If id is gonna support the Geforce 4MX(a direct x 7 card), and not the Radeon 7500(also a direct x 7 card) then something is up. Given neither a 7500 or Geforce 4MX are gonna run Doom 3 like it should be run, but to just flat out not support a comparable ATI card makes it seem like id is playing favorites and doesnt care what everyone thinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zerodamage July 28, 2004 Share Guest zerodamage Guests July 28, 2004 (edited) Well the Doom3 alpha is rumored to have been leaked by an ATi employee. id has always been loyal to Nvidia though. Even though the 9700/9800 pro's outperformed the 5800+ series, Carmack designed this game on Nvidia hardware. He started off on a Geforce 256. I have here a list of the available rendering paths for Doom3. It is probably a little on the conspiracy side of things, but I really do think Nvidia has id in their pocket. I pulled this from a forum and keep note that the ARB path is no longer available nor is the NV30 path. ARB path: requires: 32bit framebuffer with destination alpha, 32 bit Z buffer with 8 bit stencil buffer, dot3 bumpmapping, multitexturing, render-to-texture, cubemaps. features: lacks specular bumpampping othervise feature complete*. runs on: Radeon1 (No Longer supported) NV10 path: requires: same as arb path + register combiners. features: feature complete* runs on: GF1, GF2[mx], GF4MX NV20 path: requires: same as arb path + ps1.1 level pixelshaders. features: feature complete*. Uses fewer passes. runs on: GF3, GF4 R200 path: requires: same as arb path + ps1.4 level pixelshaders. features: feature complete*. Uses single pass per light in most cases. runs on: Radeon 8500, 9100, etc ARB2 path: (Includes Nvidia NV30 path for Nvidia Cards) requires: same as arb path + ps2 level pixelshaders. features: feature complete. Always one pass per light (not counting the stencil pass) runs on: Radeon 9500 and up, GFFX 5200 and up Edited July 28, 2004 by zerodamage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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