use of illegal drugs in religion

[Kurtz]

I came across this and found it to be interesting.

here

 

Its not some kind of political protest or anything but i would be interested if some of the biblical quotes used are real, if someone with more knowledge of the bible might want to comment.

Edited May 18, 2003 by Kurtz

[Chief]

Toward the very end seems to me to be the real key in the use of the drugs...the structure. So many ancient cultures, which Christianity was before much of the Protestant Reformation, use drugs as a large part of their systems. Recreational drug use is often without a system and I think that this leads to a lot of the problems associated with their use. It is interesting to think and read about. I personally don't think that the problem is with the drugs, but with the people that use them in an unhealthy, unhappy way.

 

I don't know how well this article documented some of the evidence from the archeological record (it alludes to it, but doesn't document it) of the regular use of these chemicals in people's lives. All around the world and in many belief structures. Interesting link.

[Playaa]

just like to say that I read that.......and the very first reference to the Bible was wrong....that passage said nothing about the herb they are talking about.

[Chief]

in the original Hebrew version of the recipe in Exodus (30:22-23), contained over six pounds of kaneh-bosem, a substance identified by respected etymologists, linguists, anthropologists, botanists and other researchers as cannabis, extracted into about six quarts of olive oil, along with a variety of other fragrant herbs

 

This is the first reference to the Bible, but I doubt you were reading the original, or any other, Hebrew version of the Bible. I'm sure you're reading one in English?

[dwEEziL]

How about this. One of the facets of my belief is that all authority is granted by God, meaning all leadership has been given their right to lead by God, even though more often than not it seems the leadership ends up abusing this right. I am to be subjective to that leadership as long as it does not contradict with the leading I receive from God.

 

During the Biblical times, these drugs/herbs/whatever where not "illegal drugs". Do I believe that they were used in Christian ceremonies? No, personally I don't, but that is not the issue here. The issue is that the author of this article is trying to use the fact that the drugs may or may not have been used in Christian ceremonies as weight to justify his (and the US in general) use of the substance today.

 

Point blank, it is illegal in the US so regardless of how it is tried to be justified, it is wrong. So, is it wrong for a Christian to smoke pot? From a legal standpoint, it is in the US (at the least). From a spiritual standpoint, it is more difficult to decide. I would personally say that it is spritually wrong for a Christian to smoke marijuana because the body is referred to as the temple of the Holy Spirit and we should keep it pure. But how is it any different from over-eating (guilty as charged), or getting drunk (these are sins of excess...eathing and drinking alcohol in and of themselves are not sins (again, alcohol is in that same spiritual grey area as pot in reference to your body as a temple).

 

So as a Christian living in the US. It is definitely both legally wrong and spiritually wrong to smoke pot (spiritually wrong because you are being disobedient to the authority God has placed over you.

 

As for the original Hebrew, thousands of Biblical theologians disagree daily on the interpretation of the ancient scriptures, how did some hippy pothead burnout (puposefully un-pc for comedic effect ) get the revelation that they all missed? But seriously, I will try and check out the original language and see what I can find out.

Edited May 20, 2003 by dwEEziL

[Chief]

I start a new job on June 2. I will pass a hair folicle test. But I find it interesting.

[Kurtz]

I start a new job on June 2. I will pass a hair folicle test. But I find it interesting.

Cool so you will be ready to go for that ride to ohio then in aug.

[Kurtz]

Good post dweez

 

Dont get me wrong i know this writer has his own opinions and like every side weather it left or right will twist a story to their benefit.Im not tryin to say well here it is pot is good and sacred,not at all.

 

 

 

"Point blank, it is illegal in the US so regardless of how it is tried to be justified, it is wrong"

 

I disagree with this i believe rev and i had a long discusion and he felt personaly attacked about this and it i think effected our view and or relaitionship towards eachother which is a shame.But what is illegal now wasnt always illegal and what isnt illegal may be in the future.The world has seen many changes that the people have brought about and its the peoples beliefs/morals that will in the end decide what is wrong or right not the law.

 

but i do have a question for you.

 

"I would personally say that it is spritually wrong for a Christian to smoke marijuana because the body is referred to as the temple of the Holy Spirit and we should keep it pure."

 

With this line of thought would it also be wrong for a person to have tattoos and or body piercings.And can this be taken to the extreme of make-up,nail polish and even body soaps all of which take away,change and or mask what is natural and pure based on the bible.

[Chief]

I start a new job on June 2. I will pass a hair folicle test. But I find it interesting.

Cool so you will be ready to go for that ride to ohio then in aug.

I'm sure I'll meet ya before then.

[dwEEziL]

1) You can disagree with it being illegal, but as of right now it is illegal so therefore wrong (and that is my point, right NOW it is illegal. Other reasons aside, for me to partake would be to go against the authority God has placed over me. If that were my only reason and it was made legal, then I wouldn't have a problem with it.

 

2) The difference between smoking marijuana and tattoos, piercings, makeup, jewelry, etc is marijuana has a physiological effect on a person while the other stuff is just ornamentation. That is why I put marijuana in the same grey area of alcohol up above. It can be argued pretty successfully by both sides whether it is good or bad but with the current research out now, US laws aside, I can't see a person rationally arguing for alcohol and against marijuana.

[ConGregation]

I still wub you Kurtz, you big hairy furball!

 

Dweez made the point that it is wrong for the CHRISTIAN because of the laws of the land. Its pretty cut and dried for us what we should do. Whether it is wrong or right is another debate. I only said that I think it is unwise to use mind altering drugs.

 

The only reason I jumped into that thread and tried to make a point was because we have young teens reading these forums and it was going in a direction that pretty much justified using pot for pleasure because it is a personal choice. I think it is dangerous for teens to smoke marijuana and even cited a story that linked pot smoking and teen suicides.

 

I didnt want some parent grieving over the death of their son to find that thread in their history. Far fetched but still giving the kids the idea that it is ok is not the message they need.

[Kurtz]

i understand what everyone is sayin and im not tryin to argue one way or another in this topic.

 

as far as the body purity thing

 

 

"The difference between smoking marijuana and tattoos, piercings, makeup, jewelry, etc is marijuana has a physiological effect on a person while the other stuff is just ornamentation"

 

Seems to me plastic surgery,tattoos and piercings would totally fall under that no defiling of that purifcation thing.

 

Is there a passage of this or is this a personal interp. thing?

[Playaa]

there are denominations of Christians who DO believe that tattoo's, body piercings etc ARE wrong just like smoking, doing drugs, drinking.

 

I am of the view that drinking alchohol is not wrong, it's stupid. Same with smoking and doing drugs.....not necessarily morally wrong....just idiotic

 

I'd like to clarify that I'm not calling ppl who do those things stupid or idiotic.....I'm just calling those choices idiotic..

[Kurtz]

ya ya i think we all know each others opinions on drugs from the other posts where we hashed over this.

 

 

But as far as this comment:

 

" there are denominations of Christians who DO believe that tattoo's, body piercings etc ARE wrong just like smoking, doing drugs, drinking."

 

 

so then is this more of a personal or per group interpretation and if so doesnt this kinda bring us back to the begining of the circle from dweez's comment of:

 

thousands of Biblical theologians disagree daily on the interpretation of the ancient scriptures, how did some hippy pothead burnout (puposefully un-pc for comedic effect ) get the revelation that they all missed?

 

 

does someone have the passage on this subject.Id like to take a look at it.

[Chief]

This question relates to the Bible's reference to our bodies as a "temple" and there are several guidelines laid down in the scriptures on how we are to care for our own temple.  The main reference to the body as a temple is in 1 Corinthians 6.  In this chapter, Paul is addressing the Christians in Corinth who were having some trouble following the letter and the spirit of Christ's teaching.  He lists several different areas where Christians were having trouble with living in the world.  Beginning in verse 13 and continuing through verse 20, Paul gives several guidelines on how we are to revere our bodies as the Jews had formerly held their temple--a sacred place where God would communicate with the high priest and sins were confessed and forgiven.  Using the analogy of the temple for our bodies, the former Jews could easily identify with the amount of reverence we should have for our "temple" since it was purchased by Christ for the purpose of serving God while we are still here on this earth.

 

As an instrument to be used for the continuation of Christ's work, it therefore has the same sacred purpose that the Jewish temple once served.  1 Corinthians 19-20 sums it up (KJV): "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?  For ye are bought with a price:  therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."

 

The ornamentation of the body is described in 1Timothy 2:9-10:  "In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array.  But (which becometh women professing godliness with good works."  This is a specific description for the instruction of women's dress. A general guideline goes for both men and women and is related to the fact that our bodies are temples and should be adorned modestly with the ornamentation coming in the form of our good works.  In 1 Peter 3:3-5, the instruction is given to wives:  "Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; but let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirt, which is in the sight of God of great price.  For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves..."  Likewise, in the old testament Proverbs 31:25, King Lemuel is telling of the words of wisdom that his mother told him to keep in mind for looking for the perfect wife: "Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come."  The rewards are found in verse 30-31: "Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain; but a woman that feareth the Lord, she shall be praised.  Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates." Although these scriptures are specifically addressed to women, they can easily be interpreted for men also since similar guidelines had been given for men to be judged by their works.  One's appearance is addressed in 2 Thessalonians 22: "Abstain from all appearance of evil."  For this reason, we all dress modestly so that no one could interpret our appearance as having any purpose of evil or to encourage evil thoughts for anyone else.

 

http://www.qhcoc.org/q_and_a/misc_05.html

 

Courtesy the Quartz Hill Church of Christ in Quartz Hill, California

[NOFX]

just because it is illegal doesnt make anything wrong. What should be considered wrong is somethign not socially acceptable.....

 

What I dont get is why some christians think its ok to drink. Or ok to have a drink here and there. So whats the big deal with Pot? Take a puff here and there. They are both drugs, just one(the more dangerous one) happens to be legal, so therefore it is right?

[Kurtz]

NOFX the topic was never really about it being right or wrong weve done all that.

 

THX chief

from reading that i take it being more concerned with being vain and wealth.

it does have:

 

" One's appearance is addressed in 2 Thessalonians 22: "Abstain from all appearance of evil." For this reason, we all dress modestly so that no one could interp. our appearance as having any purpose of evil or to encourage evil thoughts for anyone else."

 

that line at least for me kinda just leads back to personal interp. and to some extent puts anothers thoughts on your sholders.

 

Ive seen guys that have crosses, a picture of jesus,i love mom,and for myself a picture of my son tattooed on me.These are in no way evil but a few of the others i have look evil but represent something pure and true.How should these be viewed.And what if another interps. it as evil.

 

I dont know im confused, If other subjects are just as open to interpretation as this it seems basicly its up to each person to make the choices of what they think is a good life and find out at the end if your right.

 

So i guess everyone from that burned out hippie to the religous fanatic can be right or wrong.

Edited May 22, 2003 by Kurtz

[Kurtz]

OH NOFX

this comment from you:

"What should be considered wrong is somethign not socially acceptable....."

 

I disagree i dont think you or people as a mass should have anymore input into how i should lead my life any more than the government.

Edited May 22, 2003 by Kurtz

[Playaa]

I'm with Kurtz on that one...I don't think morals are (or should be) decided by society. I believe the majority of morals are absolutes, right and wrong do not change.

 

and for the Christians who drink but think pot is wrong....I agree with you that their views are flawed because there isn't a drastic difference in the effect upon a person.

[ConGregation]

The christian approaches things differently (or should). It is a matter of pleasing God so when we come to personal interp it hinges on how we understand/know God. Im probably the most conservative Christian on these boards. How some people worship God just gives me the willies. Its how I know God. But the emphasis is on the "I". So I approach these personal interp issues with a caution. Basically not worrying much about others but focusing on myself.

 

Then there are other things that are cut and dried and every christian should follow. These are laid out very plainly in scripture. But even there you have "weak" brothers and "young" brothers and even brothers who have not studied out certain things in the Bible. So you approach them not with condemnation. I always try to find the common ground with fellow believers. And that is God's mercy and grace. If we cant find common ground on that then there is definetly a problem.

[dwEEziL]

and for the Christians who drink but think pot is wrong....I agree with you that their views are flawed because there isn't a drastic difference in the effect upon a person.

My personal opinion against marijuana aside, no one can argue the fact that social marijuana is illegal while alcohol is perfectly legal to people 21 and over. Regardless as to what you "feel". It is currently illegal for to socially use marijuana in the US and if Christians do it, they are sinning by not being obedient to the authority God has placed over them. It is really rather cut and dry when looked at it from that point of view.

[Chief]

I have thought about Dweez's argument that we are to follow the law of the land and how it applies to so many things like speed limits and two hour parking, but fundamentally I disagree with its premise--that we are to obey the law . I believe we are to abide by the laws of men when they help to regulate society, but only some and only sometimes. I do not believe that the laws of men are absolute. I do not believe that the bible is telling us to treat them as though they were. JC is a lesson in civil disobedience, and one of the biggest instigators in history...he not only rewrote the tenents of western religion for many, he contributed greatly to the decline of Rome. There are too many laws of men that I believe the bible would have us confront.

 

This is from Thoreau's Civil Disobedience...it is a bit wordy since it's old, but I think that it says a lot...and I think Kurtz will like it:

 

After all, the practical reason why, when the power is once in the hands of the people, a majority are permitted, and for a long period continue, to rule, is not because they are most likely to be in the right, nor because this seems fairest to the minority, but because they are physically the strongest. But a government in which the majority rule in all cases cannot be based on justice, even as far as men understand it. Can there not be a government in which majorities do not virtually decide right and wrong, but conscience?â€â€in which majorities decide only those questions to which the rule of expediency is applicable? Must the citizen ever for a moment, or in the least degree, resign his conscience to the legislator? Why has every man a conscience, then? I think that we should be men first, and subjects afterward. It is not desirable to cultivate a respect for the law, so much as for the right. The only obligation which I have a right to assume is to do at any time what I think right. It is truly enough said that a corporation has no conscience; but a corporation of conscientious men is a corporation with a conscience. Law never made men a whit more just; and, by means of their respect for it, even the well-disposed are daily made the agents of injustice. A common and natural result of an undue respect for law is, that you may see a file of soldiers, colonel, captain, corporal, privates, powder-monkeys, and all, marching in admirable order over hill and dale to the wars, against their wills, ay, against their common sense and consciences, which makes it very steep marching indeed, and produces a palpitation of the heart. They have no doubt that it is a damnable business in which they are concerned; they are all peaceably inclined. Now, what are they? Men at all? or small movable forts and magazines, at the service of some unscrupulous man in power? Visit the Navy Yard, and behold a marine, such a man as an American government can make, or such as it can make a man with its black artsâ€â€a mere shadow and reminiscence of humanity, a man laid out alive and standing, and already, as one may say, buried under arms with funeral accompaniments, though it may be

 

"Not a drum was heard, not a funeral note,

As his corse to the rampart we hurried;

Not a soldier discharged his farewell shot

O'er the grave where our hero we buried."

 

http://www.eserver.org/thoreau/civil.html

 

that link'll take you to the whole thing on the internet for free, but it's worth 5 bucks to buy a copy on paper.

[SwOOp]

Pot today, and the pot that was around when some of us older guys were kids have drastically developed. Just as I am sure that it is much more potent now than it was in the Biblical times in question. I feel a large part of this decision for everyone would be their personal conviction towards it. I myself was ruled by pot and other drugs for about 5-6 six years of my life, and in retrospect I regret ever taking any of it. Growing up, me and my friends always had a good time and never would have thought of doing drugs of any kind. However, somewhere between growing up and high school, curiousity and experimentation got the best of us. Then it seemed like we had to pay for a good time. Needless to say I am no longer a promoter of smoking pot or using any other recreational drugs, I do not hold anything against those that do. But I hope that they, just like I, come to the realization that there is a lot more things that are important in this world, and it's kinda hard to keep your eyes on the prize when you are looking through a cloud of smoke.

 

Besides, are you there while the person is growing the stuff? Do you take your friends word for it when you buy a bag? There are 2 types of people that sell pot: those that want to make money, and those that want to have free pot. Who's to say that the bag you got doesn't have any kind of chemicals or some serious crap in it that could potentially mess you up, or get you hooked on another drug for that matter? It is not unheard of for dealers to lace their weed with crack, just to keep people coming back to buy from them, or get them hooked on a more expensive habit.

 

The best thing the devil ever did was convince the world that he didn't exist.

[[VI]ROosTEr]

With this line of thought would it also be wrong for a person to have tattoos and or body piercings.And can this be taken to the extreme of make-up,nail polish and even body soaps all of which take away,change and or mask what is natural and pure based on the bible.

Hmmm...I have definitely heard about sects that believe it is wrong for tattoos (I am pretty sure there is a verse in the Bible that deals with tattoos explicitly) However, I know there are also verses (I can probably find these pretty quickly) that talk about people with gold rings in their ears, and it isn't in a bad context. This is all pretty important to me, as I have piercings that are permanent and will never grow back, and I am a christian. I dunno, I don't feel that I have messed up my body, I dunno, I guess I'll find out when I die

[dwEEziL]

When I first got my ear pierced, my pastor had a long speech with me where he tried to convince me that I was doing it to associate myself with the world. He also tried to tell me that ear-piercing came from the homosexual community. I don't think he really meant that last comment but was just trying to get me to take it out.

 

I told him it was nothing more than an ornamentation like the ring he was wearing (besides his wedding ring) or his tie-tack. I also reminded him of the passage of scripture (Exodus 21:5-6) that speaks about slaves whose master has been good to them and wants to serve them forever (slaves were only slaves for 6 years normally), they should pierce their ear with an awl as a sign.

 

Also, when Moses was up on the mountain receiving the 10 commandmants from God (Exodux 32:1-3), the children of Israel were getting scared because he was gone for so long. They pleaded to Aaron to create a "god" for them to worship. He told them to take the rings of gold from the ears of their wives, daughters, and sons so that he could use that metal to make them an idol.

 

My argument was that if they had just keep their piercings in, they wouldn't have fallen back into idolatry.

Probably not true, but it gave my pastor enough to realize that it wasn't just a whim or fancy on my part and that I had actually thought it through before getting it done.