Human nature in Christian tradition..

[Playaa]

I'm not trying to "get at" anything...I'm trying to learn...

basically, what is the point of the sacraments? what about them makes you any different than Joe Blow down the street in God's eyes?

 

I have never gotten in depth with a catholic before so I'd like to know some more.

[dwEEziL]

Well, for one thing Playaa, you are being obedient. That is a big thing for God. Remember when David took the shew bread reserved for the priests and fed his people because they were starving? He was not punished for this showing that God wants obedience rather than ritual.

 

Actually, depending on the heart of the individual going through the sacraments, this example could support both claims (doing sacraments out of obedience based on love of God vs. doign sacraments because it is just something a "good Catholic" does).

[Trouble .gc]

this will prob. be more helpful in explaining the 7 sacraments.

i'm really not the right catholic to get indepth with about it though...like i said, my views are very liberal.

[Watchtower]

read matthew 25:1-13. This thought of yours is about the scariest thing i can imagine, and find myself wondering whenever i let myself go down a path that takes me away from my focus on God. I dont know what God would say to those who comes back late. I know if you come back too late, then you dont get forgiven, since He "never knew you". God is all forgiving, if you ask it. He wont forgive if you dont ask for it.

 

 

jane

THen what is the point of being "born again"? You can fall out of grace, but you can always get back in is what I've been taught.

[dwEEziL]

Watch, there is a point at which you have "fallen away" or denied Christ too much for too long at which point God will turn you over to yourself. At this point in a person's life, they themselves will never return to God.

 

Hebrews 6:1-6 talks about those who have been born again and have fallen away. For them to be "born again again", since they rejected the sacrifice of Christ that paid for their atonement, they would need to sacrifice Him again.

 

Now, whereas I believe a person can fall away so far they lose their salvation, I also know that I am not the one who judges when a person has reached such a point. My job is to lift them up in prayer and be a friend to them throughout everything regardless.

[jane]

its more like stepping out to lunch too long. If you say to God, ill be right back, i just gotta do my own thing for a while. Then God comes back and you're still doing your own thing, itll be like you never were doing His thing. Because it does come down to the last tick of the clock. Salvation is both instantanious(Romans 10:9) and lengthy(1 Peter 1:5). It is a mysterious thing that if you want more answers than what i just posted then you'll have to read the bible because all i know is that God wants us to believe that His son was, is, and will always be the saviour of our souls, and wants us to serve His Son because of that. If we do both these things then we will be saved. The semantics around whether you can "fall away" or not are rather tricky and though "many" christians choose to argue over the point, i find its better to let God's Word be truth and not any one of our interrpretations....

[Watchtower]

its more like stepping out to lunch too long. If you say to God, ill be right back, i just gotta do my own thing for a while. Then God comes back and you're still doing your own thing, itll be like you never were doing His thing. Because it does come down to the last tick of the clock. Salvation is both instantanious(Romans 10:9) and lengthy(1 Peter 1:5). It is a mysterious thing that if you want more answers than what i just posted    then you'll have to read the bible because all i know is that God wants us to believe that His son was, is, and will always be the saviour of our souls, and wants us to serve His Son because of that. If we do both these things then we will be saved. The semantics around whether you can "fall away" or not are rather tricky and though "many" christians choose to argue over the point, i find its better to let God's Word be truth and not any one of our interrpretations....

I don't think anyone says to themselves "God, I'm gonna forget about you for a bit". Some may all of the sudden deny him and try to change their views and to a Christian they will goto hell. We are kind of talking about that same person also down the road coming back to God and asking for forgiveness and at that point how could you say he wouldn't let him in. You guys are kind of referring to a cycle of "on again, off again". Which in fact most who believe take part in to degrees. You don't think about God 24/7. Some could go a week without praying, but will resume and assume to be a "good christian". That is life. And you are right, there should be an assumed level of actual faith or obedience that qualifies you for heaven. So not any schmoe can just pick up the bible and grab his ticket. I don't know. We understand what you are saying, but I don't think trouble fits that description.. She'll be ok. Unless she marries me!

[Playaa]

Watch...I suggest reading Hebrews 6...don't read any commentaries...just read it and tell us what you think it says.

I'm not even gonna say my opinion on it yet...just telling you that is the area that most Christians talk about in this subject.

[dwEEziL]

We are kind of talking about that same person also down the road coming back to God and asking for forgiveness and at that point how could you say he wouldn't let him in.

I can't. I said it is not for us to judge whether someone has gone too far or not. We just continue to pray for them. Also, I think you have the wrong perception here. When a person gets to the point where he has gone "too far" away, it's not that God won't take him back. It is that he won't want to come back.

 

God weeps for every lost soul but people make their own decisions.

[Watchtower]

Watch...I suggest reading Hebrews 6...don't read any commentaries...just read it and tell us what you think it says.  I'm not even gonna say my opinion on it yet...just telling you that is the area that most Christians talk about in this subject.

http://www.leaderu.com/isot/docs/heb2.html

 

Says that these passages referrence the Jewish Christians, whom under scrutiny at the time were forced to make certain statements denouncing Christ. I would have to know the exact context of these passages before making my own opinion. Your views are pretty radical and if believed by the masses would be pretty, well pessimistic. Why bother if you've "strayed"? Noone is talking about "denouncing" Jesus here either, she just said that maybe she doesn't allocate as much time as she thinks she should. Why you guys had to put this scary slant on her comment I don't know. Typical. I'm glad I'm not scared

 

Key Bible Verse: Don't condemn each other anymore. Decide instead to live in such a way that you will not put an obstacle in another Christian's path (Romans 14:13).

[Trouble .gc]

my beliefs are different than yours...so thats how it stands. thanks for the comments...

[Playaa]

Watch...I suggest reading Hebrews 6...don't read any commentaries...just read it and tell us what you think it says.

I'm not even gonna say my opinion on it yet...just telling you that is the area that most Christians talk about in this subject.

so you pretty much totally ignored everything I said there eh?

 

Noone is talking about "denouncing" Jesus here either, she just said that maybe she doesn't allocate as much time as she thinks she should. Why you guys had to put this scary slant on her comment I don't know. Typical. I'm glad I'm not scared

 

Watch...do you ever listen to a word we say? cause clearly you ignore everything that's coming from our mouths because I KNOW I've explained to you multiple times an answer to those questions...but apparently you ignore me when I'm not saying something you can disagree with...

[dwEEziL]

I wasn't speaking directly regarding any specific person. I was just giving my views on the subject. Sorry. My outlook is fairly optimistic regarding it I feel. If I sit and wonder if I have fallen away too far, I already know I haven't. If I had, I wouldn't care a lick about it.

 

There is also a passage that states there is only one judge between God and man and that it is Jesus Christ but instead of judging us he sits at the right hand of God in intercessory prayer for us. That gives me an awesome feeling to know that the one "person" who could judge me is instead rooting for me and speaking directly to God on my behalf.

[Watchtower]

Watch...do you ever listen to a word we say? cause clearly you ignore everything that's coming from our mouths because I KNOW I've explained to you multiple times an answer to those questions...but apparently you ignore me when I'm not saying something you can disagree with...

 

Sure I do Playaa, but sometimes it all starts sounding the same. i started to read that passage and then I wondered who it was referring to. Because these lesson being taught have to be considered in context. Like when God tells David to kills a whole village, we have to look at Why he told him to, not just that he did. The first part tells us about leaving the elementary teachings, which I took as all the silly rules and regulations and go on to maturity which means actually recieving the fruits of his grace? Actually wait, the Hebrews thing I was reading was totally different that this passage at biblegateway.com.. Hold on.. I was reading the KJV.. Amazing the difference. Biblegateway is spelled out pretty good although I don't understand a few sentences.

Now read the KJV and see why I was looking at it a little closer..

KJV Hebrews

I started to try to understand it and wanted some interpretation. I figured a School of Theology might have a decent idea on what it meant. I was kinda in a hurry too, had to get back to work. Sorry..

[Watchtower]

My outlook is fairly optimistic regarding it I feel.

Dweeze, of all the people you know, what percent do you feel are actually "good christians" and worthy of heaven? how about 2 figures, one with people you know from church, and one excluding those.

[jane]

im the same way as dweez i dont find this conversation to be directly about trouble. I just think about the situation or a "for instance". Then I put my two cents in.

 

 

Ill put mine in here too....

of all the people you know, what percent do you feel are actually "good christians" and worthy of heaven? how about 2 figures, one with people you know from church, and one excluding those

being that i dont think anyone is good enough or worthy of heaven(excepting Christ himself) 0%....0%....

 

 

We none of us are worthy of heaven, christian or no. It is christ in us who makes us worthy. WOOT! It feels great to know that God is so loving that He would take away my sin and allow me(through grace and faith) to commune with Him is a wonderful thing!

 

 

*edit* though i should say WT, that i understand what you're aiming at here. No christian has enough faith, does enough good deeds, or prays enough to make him/her a good christian. Once again it is God who makes us good. Not by ourselves, but only with/through Him are we good. get it? or am i confuzing even myself.....

[Watchtower]

Yeah I should have rephrased that. Saw that comin

Yeah basically what I meant is if you think you are barely scraping by, compare yourself with those around you and estimate where they're at. I don't know how you can be optimistic about that We're all going to Each Eeee double hockey stick. lol

 

And that topic didnt really get brought up until she said something and maybe it was just handled very impersonally, but she was kind of hurt. Maybe because noone addressed her dilema directly and you just mostly left your views to interpretation.. noone wants to think or be told they are going to a bad place for eternity.

[dwEEziL]

Being good is not what keeps us in God's good grace. He knows we are human and will fail over...and over...and over (ad nauseum) again. The thing God is after, and the reason David was called a man after God's own heart, is a repentive spirit. We will fail everyday. How we react to it is what matters. If we come to God with a repentant heart, He is faithful and just to forgive us.

 

Oh, as for the % of Christians, I am with Jane but for the gist of your statement, I know a lot of good people who sincerely follow after Christ.

[DJ Premier]

Hmmm...i didnt really read the entire thread but....

 

someone here said your God/Jesus were not entirely against bloodshed and violence.

 

I would have to suppose that this is someone's interpretation of the bible rather than a well known accepted thing. At least that's how I would like to see it.

 

It seems that it could then be used as a reason to justify bloodshed and violence. It seems funny that somehow killing a fetus is one of the most appalling thing to some ppl, yet the same ppl accept killing thousands of other fellow human beings. So if I played along, what exactly are some reasons your God would support killing ppl and what are reasons not to kill ppl? And if you follow these rules, does it make it right?

[Watchtower]

Murder from the opinion I've seen.. I'm not sure on anything else.. ?

[jane]

not sure i follow you at all there premier, but IMO, abortion, vs war is a whole different issue. Innocent or no, those adults, and yes even those children we are killing ruthlessly over in the middle east still have more of a chance than an unborn baby(fetus, PC ). If we were to kill by choice, by frivioulous desire for ones own security/ state of mind, wouldnt that be wrong? That statement applies not just to abortion, btw, but also to war. Many christians/republicans seem to be just fine with the war on terrorism. I find it acceptable in theory, but not in practice(or at least as Bush is practicing it.... gettin polotical here i know, ill keep it down).

 

 

As to the quesiton of whether its a well know thing that God has used violence for His purposes before, its really up to the person who listens. The whole of Hebrew/Jewish history is filled with blood, war and hatred. Most of the wars were used to gain some sort of clarity for the Jewish people of who God was. Either he lead them into battle against a stronger foe, and defeated them, or he lead another army against the Jews to punish them for their disobediance.

 

 

If someone uses the past for justificaiton of the present, they are forgetting the fact that humans are a part of time, and that time is always moving forward. If at one point in time past, there was a good reason for violence(aka showing God's faith and love for his people/and or showing them his wrath), it may not ever be the same again. IN fact most of those situations were one time deals, where people were beaten in battle, then got to get on with life. Though there was a period of time when the Jews had strayed so far from God that he put the entire nation into captivity under Babylon.

 

 

this answer your quesiton? or did i not even come close?

 

*edit* i guess i kinda missed your last quesiton there, eh? What are the reasons God would allow me to kill someone? Thou shalt not kill. Thats what he said to me. I would find selfdefense, or defense of someone else a possible by-way, but only if it came to death. If your country asks you to kill someone, i could do that in good conscience because God put the authorities on this earth where he wanted them and his will is done through them(dont misconstrue my statement to mean i think everything they do is His will, aka Iraq, but enough of it is).

Edited April 10, 2004 by jane

[DJ Premier]

I'm still not clear. If God is not entirely opposed to killing, for what reasons would it be clear that killing is ok? Are there rules? And if so, what are they and if you follow these rules, would it make it right?

 

Is it really just an interpretation or is it really written that there are justified reasons to kill someone, as supported by the bible and God?

 

And the whole concept of God putting the leaders in place.....are you saying that "enough" of the choices made by our government are led by God and that by logic, if you follow the government, you are following God's will?

[jane]

There is one rule that supersedes all other rules(if you wanna call em rules). That is actually broken into two parts, each as important as the next. To love the Lord God with all your heart, soul and mind, and to love your neighbor as yourself. As far as killing/war, it follows that you should do whatever is loving to others. If that is most loving to kill a few people in power who make life hell for everyone else, then yes i find it to be fine, by those standards. But most often the rules about killing are simple and straight forward, non-interpretable- Thou Shalt not Kill.

 

There is interpretation(if you must) when it comes to those few, and far-between situations where killing is the loving thing. And that decision should be left to those who listen to God. God will decide what is best. IMO God will most often ask for peace and justice in the same boat. Problem is our human and depraved mind cant comprehend peace and justice at the same time.

 

 

Can anyone else help me out here? Im kinda lost as to the explanation of this......

[DJ Premier]

If that is most loving to kill a few people in power who make life hell for everyone else, then yes i find it to be fine, by those standards.

 

That seems awfully vague. If I get it straight, you can kill ppl as long as that person is making it miserable for a lot of other ppl? Or is there more to it?

Edited April 13, 2004 by DJ Premier

[jane]

my referance would be to iraq where we need to take people outa power who are making life hell. preferably doing this would be peaceful and not involve killing. But most often people who like to kill people wont step down peacefully. If im in a war, or in an army, im gonna do what my commander says, if that be kill those guys in that bunker, then im gonna go do it. if it be in peacetime and im a regular joe, im not gonna ask for the death penalty unless that person desearves it(aka assain of president, John Bundy, Charles Manson). I dont know what else to say. The bible makes it clear to not kill people, without cause given by God.