a question :)

[auggybendoggy]

cong, I am not taking you as being argumentative or playya.

 

I too am a christian but I finally fessed up that I can't explain all things.

 

I have read James about 200 times and no matter what the language which is forbidded today is used.

 

We see a man is justified by what he does.

 

Playaa is right, I do agree indeed James is saying true love produces works but he connects works with salvation NOT APART like paul.

 

There is no way to conclude that James who says

Abraham was justified by what he did by offering up issac as a sacrafice

does not co-incide with Paul who says Abraham was credited rigtesousness for his faith NOT BY HIS WORKS!

 

These 2 statements are clearly in opposition no matter how you come at it.

 

Where the real dillema lies is how do you deal with a mormon who says "I have to do these things cause I love God. If one loves God he will obey thus I discipline myself to do God's will."

 

This is what mormons (some) say and translated it is synonomous with playaas explanation that is..."if you love God you will do it"

to say we all want to do Gods will is false. We struggle with our flesh and as paul says "I beat my body into submission".

 

Thus the mormon explanation of why things MUST be done is for their love for God. Now I agree not all mormons are the same but if a mormon is true to his belief that he does Good because he loves God then does his lack of "TRINITY" belief disqualify him from such a prize?

 

See I think we look at JW's and Mormons as "trying to earn their salvation" when in fact they see it as "we do it cause God wants us to and we want to serve him". But then the REAL issues come to play. What I mean is cause they don't conform to our doctrines such as trinity, eternal marriage, baptisim for the dead, Jesus in south america...( I admit baptism for the dead is wack)...but to thier credit if one mormon does his 2 year mission because he loves God then is he Dead for his being born a mormon or being raised a mormon?

 

I actully hear James saying YOU WORKS WILL COMPLETE YOUR FAITH.

thus James passes the ball to us...ahhhhh contradiction of the grace doctrine that its all done on the cross.

 

If James is not leaving the completion of your faith in your hands then why the hell is he telling people to do good works. This whole section of James is to compel peopel to act upon their spoken faith. If indeed no action is necessary to complete the faith then James is a waste of paper.

 

Thus martin Luther I think is correct...it's problematic no matter how you take it. You can try to hammer this piece of the puzzle to fit but it does fly in our face on putting God in a box.

 

with that said,

I still see LOVE being the primary force to bind all this together. I dont see intellectualism being the main issue of Jesus' minsitry. Rather I see him saying the same thing James says..."Seek God first, Love others as much as yourself, and Humble yourself" - I think those who do this are true christians regardless of their not joining the protestant church or catholic or mormon.

 

as for all the work being done on the cross I tend to believe that it means Jesus did all the work needed for man to be reconciled back to God. This does not mean men do not need to love God. This would be contradiction of scripture. Indeed one must love God in order to obtain true salvation. But to say I can do nothing to affect my salvation is not a totality statement.

 

Indeed peter even states

"do everything to make your election sure" or Paul says

"work out your salvation with much TREMBLING and fear"

(and dont give me this Respect stuff...I've heard about 20 sermons on this and EVERYONE OF THEM SKIPS TREMBLING...hmmmm why).

I'm making the case of freewill and our ability to affect our destiny.

 

Again I'll say,

I'm not so impressed with JW's or Mormons as to say hey they're pretty good off....rather I'm more worried about the church and it being just like mormons. Simply cause they accept the doctrines of grace and Faith in thier minds does not save them...

While the protestants accuse JW's for trying to earn salvation they themselves deny their own works complete thier salvation.

 

 

REACTION!

 

 

Auggy

[dwEEziL]

Who was James' intended audience? I can look it up later but don't have the time right now. My thinking is that James is describing physical, real world characteristics of a true believer (not that these characteristics are exclusive only to believers though...think "All squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares" sort of thing). If someone professes to being a true believer but good works are not manifest his/her life, it is a good sign that they might not be (but also, I am not the one to make that judgment call.

 

A song I used to sing in church went like this, "They will know we are Christians by our love, by our love". That means, it should be evident to the world who we are and what we stand for. How can our faith, which is a personal, intangible thing, be evident to the world on its own? It really can't be. It would be like taking a picture of the wind. But we can see the evidence of our faith in real, physical form but the works that we perfom, much like you can take a picture of the bending trees or blowing leaves which is evidence of the wind blowing.

 

Again, I go back to what I stated above, James is describing the natural result of a privious action, the outward expression of an inward action.

[auggybendoggy]

Dweez, Indeed he is but you still dont get the point.

 

The point I'm making is that to protestants a mormon is working for their salvation. But to the mormon he is doing his godly duty to obey becuase HE LOVES GOD (at least in his mind he believes that).

The mormon sees his "scriptual" obedience as an expression of love not as a token. of course I don't mean all mormons.

 

So what I'm saying is that in that solo interpretation of James mormons agree. They will say EXACTLY the works must accompany your salvation or it aint a real salvation. Thus they say the same thing.

 

So in essence I hear protestants double talking. I hear them say salvation has nothing to do with works but yet make it the natural product of salvation? This leads me the the language of James

 

James' language is not "if you truly love it will produce" for if he would have meant that he would have said that.

 

No, he most assuredly said "we see we are justified by what we do".

 

What most protestants are trying to MAKE James say is "So we see that we are not justified by what we do but that what we do will be the sign of true faith".

 

NO WAY if that were so he would not have written...

"so our works perfect our faith".

 

Again as a protestant I was raised to believe it was salvation by grace via faith and has nothing to do with works....

 

I don't believe that anymore...

 

I believe our works have everything to do with our salvation...

 

Now when I say works I mean LIFE!!! I mean that our good works save us in a sense. Its these good works that God created us for...

for we are his workmanship CREATED FOR GOOD WORKS IN CHRIST.

God gifts us this ability and we execute it. But to say it's got nothing to do with salvation is misleading.

 

Thus my problem is how do I wrestle with Pauls writings of "we are saved by grace via faith and not by works."

I cant say for sure but I tend to think Paul and James would agree with each other. I tend to think Paul is not speaking of the good works God created us for but rather that there is a token deed.

 

When people quote Isaiah saying "our righteousness is as filthy rags" is a false interpretation. The context of the time is to Isreal and their hypocracy. They are claiming to follow God but dont live it so God rebukes them by saying "your good deeds and righteouss lives are FILTHY" much like the pharisees. He is not saying our good deeds which he created us for are filthy before him. Thus I tend to believe that our good works (LOVE) stands before him as a gift from him to us.

and we are credited righteoussness as abraham was.

 

But I surely don't believe that getting baptized or any other outware symbol of deed will save anyone. I believe love will though. For if you turn to God (God first puts a love in our hearts) and REPENT (another deed word) then we will be saved.

 

I say repent as a deed cause it literally means to stop and turn from what you were doing. Some try to interpret it as turn to God but literally it means stop and trun from....not turn to.

 

If indeed repentance means to stop practicing wickedness then James is correct. If James is incorrect then repentance is not necessary for salvation. I don't agree with reformed theologians who state repentance is not necessary. I tend to see it all as integrated rather than compartmental.

 

so again, no matter what, the mormon agrees.

 

UNLESS you say "your behavior does not matter for what you do cannot save or UNsave you."

but not even protestants believe this. Protestants state behavior does matter for if you truly love then your will behave....thus the mormon agrees.....

ahhhh the circle is killing me!!! : )

 

In love,

 

Auggy

[graybeard]

Wow- what a topic! Just to add my 2 cents- make that 2.2 cents with my tighe (lol).

 

There is one main thing that set Christians apart from JW or Mormons. That i sthe belief in the bible in it's entirety (is that a word?). The JW do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God- ney God himself in flesh. And the Mormons have added to the bible. Both will end you in Hell.

 

When the question is asked- If I believe Jesus is the Son of God and the the only through him can I reach Heaven, no matter what else i do, how can this be true? What if I kill people in cold blood? I will always answer with this question- Is there anything that a human can do or say that is Greater than the love of God? My answer is a resounding no. Does this excuse us from being good people? Nope. I also beleive in diffent levels of Heaven. The "higher" the level the closer to God, the better the person on Earth.

 

The tighe issue. The bible tells us that we are to give 10%. This is the minimum standard set. It does not say to give less and it does not say to only give 10%. The bible is also not limit what is to be given. Can that be 10% of your time, works, money?

 

Sorry for jumping so late on this topic- to be honest, it is the first time I have been in this forum. I will check it out some more I am sure.

 

But what makes God great, is the fact that I can talk to him anytime I want, I can tell him anything I want, I can ask him for anything I want and he will always give me what I deserve. Not always the same thing as what I want. But in the end, I will be basking in the light of Jesus' face and all of this will be forgotten.

 

Gray.

[auggybendoggy]

man i had a whold response and lost it....FORGET IT!!!!

 

anyways, I'm not in total disagreement with you greybeard, (by the way welcome)

 

but give this a read it's interesting. I feel the writer is making some mistakes on understanding God's commands and "law".

 

http://www.jefflindsay.com/faith_works.html

[graybeard]

The problem- it is not a book inthe bible and to base a faith on it is nothing short of blashphamy (i know i spelled that wrong). No offense intended, just truth. In my eyes this is very much the same as the catholic church worshipping an idol of Mary. It is wrong. Period.

 

I have cousins, relativley close cousins, who are Morman. They were married in the Main Church- Ironically, a loving accepting Christian Organization would not allow their father to be present at the wedding, because he is not Morman. Dont quite understand that one. Heck- he played football for BYU and married MS. Utah, who gave up her crown to get married. Anyway- the service they have done- two years in the field- is nothing short of heroic. Way more than I have ever done. My fear is that all of the good intentions, great TV Commercials, etc. will have done them no good.

 

I will not have the correct answer until I face God.

 

Gray

[auggybendoggy]

whats not abook in the bible?

 

niether are books by c.s. lewis but I read em anyways

[graybeard]

whats not abook in the bible?

 

niether are books by c.s. lewis but I read em anyways

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

And do u apply those to your theological beliefs?

[gOOters]

Dont Mormons believe that they are going to a different planet when they die? And they will be able to take their wife (wives) with them if the wife has pleased them enough. As well as take their wife's ancestors or something like that? I would have to check with a friend who was Mormon to get all the facts straight.

[ConGregation]

Don't forget we become gods of that planet and repopulate it. (or probably the correct term would be just 'populate')

[auggybendoggy]

tis true that the planet and goodhood thing.

 

But my subject focus is on "grace and works" and how their belief differs (if it does) from ours. At times they sound the same. Of course I'm in agreement with Martin Luther that James 2 is contradicting to faith alone. So I see this "salvation by works" judgement on mormons as false (at this time, im not THAT studied that I know all things

but at this time it appears to me that protestants are not fair on this issue with mormons. Now it also may depend on the mormon cause I understand there are many sects.

 

Aug

[MrDuke]

Sorry to jump in to this post, but I have a real dilemma. Assuming we all agree in the empirical teachings of Jesus, I want to take this another step further.

I am troubled because I feel I am a "lukewarm" Christian.

Yes, I am a sinner. Yes, I believe Jesus Christ is my savior and died for my sins. Yes, I ask for forgiveness.

Yes, I go to church.

Yes, I read my bible.

But is that enough??

It is my understanding that being lukewarm equates to being left behind.

Where is the line drawn between being lukewarm and being a devoted Christian?

 

To compound my problem even further, I had a dream where I was on a plane ( I don't know why), and I was kneeling. Someone put a gun to my head and said "Are you a Christian?". I knew what was going on, knew what I SHOULD say, but I chickened out and said "no". I woke up and had the worst day of my life.

Granted, it was just a dream. But in my mind, that was my "moment" and I choose not to accept Christ--that hurt and still hurts. The fear was incredible...but my faith was not there. I've been wrestling with it ever since.

I think many people who think they're Christians are in for a rude awakening.

Alas, this is a rhetorical question, but it's one we should all think about.

Are you a lukewarm Christian?

 

I'd really appreciate a little advice from you guys. I don't jump into the forums often enough, not with 2 little ones running around, but I do enjoy poking around and reading everything.

 

Thanks,

Mr Duke

[ConGregation]

Who is responsible for your salvation?

[auggybendoggy]

Mr. Duke.

I think the fact that you ask such questions should not be overlooked that God is leading you in a good direction.

 

Your feeling lukewarm is quiet normal. It's a part of our imprefect lives that leads us to this. YOU WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO DO ANYTHING to make you feel like your not lukewarm. You will always need to grow cause you will not be perfect until the end.

 

Thus, you should know going to church, reading your bible and other things DOES NOT SAVE YOU.

 

Loving God does. This is the question you must answer Jesus. To love God and to love others is to be a true believer.

 

I do encourage you to ask as many questions as you wish and DONT be AFRAID of others. Some may call you a heretic or a false witness or something to the likes but its only words. Be true to God and be honest with him and listen to what he says.

 

My feelings are for you to examine yourself and ask yourself if love is at the center of your being. If you seek God only to live forever then I think you will die. If you seek God cause you want to know him and you want his guidance and love you will live. If you seek him first all the things (blessings) Jesus speaks of will be rewarded to you. If you seek YOURSELF you will surely die.

 

So nothing we do is good or bad in and of itself. It's motive that counts.

not the things themselves.

 

At least thats my opinion.

 

Read Jesus man he's awsome.

 

Auggy

[MrDuke]

Well,

To answer Cong, I am ultimately responsible for my salvation by my choice to believe that Christ is my savior and he died for my sins.

I see the miracles every day in my children, in listening to my patients' stories, in the "little things" of the day. There is no doubt in my mind.

 

I used to critize and mock the one brave soul who would walk through hundreds of Friday night party-goers with a large banner that said "Jesus saves". Now I just wish I had his courage to express my love like he did. What a Christian!!

 

But that's what I mean. Because I'm hesitant to actively go out and bring people to Christ, does that make me less of a Christian? Is that the line in the sand that distinguishes lukewarms from the truly devoted?

 

Does it not mention in the Bible about the lukewarms and their fate?

 

I don't think it's enough to just accept Christ as your savior...to a point. On a timeline, if you accepted Christ right as you passed away, then yes, that would suffice. But what about AFTER you accept Christ. Don't you have the responsibility to spread God's word? And by not doing so, for whatever the reason, how can you honestly say you've devoted yourself to Christ.

 

This is a really DEEP issue for me. I wish it was as simple as, do this, this and this, or just do what makes you feel good.

 

I guess to sum it all up...something is missing for me. My faith is there...but there should be more to it. You have to work hard to make any relationship work...even a spiritual one. Where's the work?

[MrDuke]

And the most important thing I have to ask tonight is...

 

How in blazes do I get rid of the newbie avatars under my name??!!

[ConGregation]

Hehe, just keep posting

 

I feel that NO person could ever justify themselves before God. Whatever I did as far as a work could never justify salvation, acceptance by God, grace, etc. That work is far more than anything I can 'earn' by any act of this flesh. I mean God gave his son for my redemption. I cannot offer a sacrifice to equal that. Even if I tried it would fall short because of my imperfections and sins.

 

Just a little personal testimony. I was raised in a Pastor's home. I knew all the stories and even the Gospel. I so desperately wanted to be saved. I was really frightened that I would die in a lost condition. I remember many nights laying awake in my bed trying to ask God to save me. But I always doubted that I asked the right way or that I felt the right way. I kept trying and trying but never had any peace. Until one night God showed me where I was failing. I was trying to attain a feeling. An experience, if you will. But God emphasized the 'me' part. I was depending on my efforts even in asking. I finally realized (or God showed me) that all I had to do was trust. Ask but then let him do the work because there was no way I was going to do it. I had tried over and over. But when I finally 'let go and let God' I experienced the peace that comes with salvation.

 

It is something not earned. Just like our acceptance with God is not earned. Once we experience salvation then the christian walk makes sense. To sacrifice because I am forced sacrifice or serve is a miserable experience. But to try and give back in very small ways (compared to what I was given) is an act of love makes for a joyful experience. I serve because I love. As I have walked down the christian life I have lost sight from time to time of the worth of what Christ did for me. During those times I wander and am weak. But as soon as I come back to the cross and remember what HE did for me there my love can cause me to draw close to Him again.

 

The passage about lukewarmness just says "I would rather thou wert hot or cold" then he says that he would spew the lukewarm out of His mouth. It is a picture. A cold drink is good. A hot drink is good. But a lukewarm drink will not bring pleasure to God.

 

Of course we should do more for God. Of course He will compel us to go further for Him. But we can never go there unless we are holding His hand. If I'm doing it just because I feel guilty but not out of love then it would be like me going it alone. Only as we draw close to Him can we achieve any spiritual work.

 

Where is the work? I would ask, 'Where is the love?' It is less about work and more about submission. In work there is guilt, duty and demands. In submission there is peace, love and joy. And ultimately the work will be done.

 

Sorry I rambled. Should have added more scriptures but it was late :weak smile: Just my take on things though.

[ConGregation]

Heh, missed Auggy's post. We had some similer thoughts there. Scary

 

We may not agree on every detail or method but we seem to end up the same.

[auggybendoggy]

too true cong,

Mr. Duke, while Cong and me discuss James' meaning of "works" be assured that BOTH of us believe James is pointing to "DO YOU LOVE GOD".

 

A brave soul walking into a party and being made fun of is not necessarily a man of God. Paul says in Cor 13..."for if I submit my body to flames but have not love it is in vain". So there can be braver man than this party crasher and still lose their souls.

 

All I can say is Theology wont save you. The doctrines that save Jesus espoused....Forgive and you will be forgiven, Don't Judge, Submit to one another, love God with all your heart, soul and mind, Love your enemies.

 

If you find yourself failing in these (fruits of the spirit) then don't think going to a party and preaching gospel will prove to God anything.

 

This is a freindship, parenthood, romance. Not a get your A$$ busy and then your ok. It's ALL about love...."for God is Love".

 

If you feel compelled to do good works and that your falling short then I will ask you this.

 

Do you love your enemies?

 

If you don't then what good will being brave do for you. Do you put others before yourself? If not then having the number of saved soul srtipes on your shirt wont help you ANY.

 

Like Cong said, Give your heart and then you will find yourself praying and not telling anyone you pray. You will give and never tell people you gave. For those that truly seek, seek not glory of man but simply take joy in helping others and in fellowship with God.

 

God loves us, the way a mother loves her newborn child; The way a husband loves his newlywed wife, or a son loves his father and a father his son.

 

So I too am sorry for rambling but I truly believe that if you evaluate yourself you will find YOU DONT CARE like you think you do.

 

I love Paul in Romans 7

There are things I hate I end up doing...Things I want to do I just don't do.

 

Mr. Duke, if you want to read a awsome inspiration and encouragment

read "No Compromise" by Melody Green on the Life of Keith Green (her husband) and listen to his music. That dude will flat out ROCK you on loving God. He really was a great encouragment for me and many many others. And yet he too was just a follower like us.

 

So hope this helps,

and please speak your thoughts and we'll keep dialouging.

 

Auggy

[MrDuke]

I think you hit it on the head when you mentioned not being at peace.

When I first came to Christ I did not feel worthy of the gift. I kept asking my mentor, "It's that easy?". Simply put, I was looking too hard for it...trying to make it too complicated (not taking away from the gravity of it).

I think maybe I'm in the same situation. Maybe I'm looking to make it harder than it needs to be.

I just get worried because of all the conflicting information out there.

I worry that I'm missing something.

Case in point, (just to promote some more discussion). I had two of my ministers tell me two different things with regards to baptism. Not the initial issue of whether child baptism is worthwhile, but is baptism required once you have a relationship with Christ? Required in the sense that it is necessary to go to heaven?

One says yes, one says no. Both have supporting scripture. My gut doesn't tell me anything...other than go get another dish of ice cream.

 

What's your thought on this?

[MrDuke]

Auggy,

That's my problem. I pray a lot for my patients that I know have cancer. I ask that God give them strength and courage to get through this part of HIS plan. But I don't tell that person I prayed for them.

I pay for someone's meds that fall through the cracks of the healthcare system, but I don't tell them I did it.

I do lot's of things like that, not because I have to, but because I want to.

My problem is, should I be telling people--hey, I just want you to know I am praying for you? I am scared but I don't know why. I know they won't come over the counter and beat me up or something!!

Does a true Christian pray for another person (for the right reasons) and then tell that person so that maybe that person begins a relationship with Christ?

Does a true Christian say "your meds are paid for by a Christian friend" in the hopes of bringing that person closer to Christ or do you just let it go--be anonymous.

That's my dilema... is the lukewarm Christian the one who goes through the motions, but does not spread the word? And is that good enough, knowing you could do more? Are you giving your all to Christ?

I guess something inside me is calling me to do more. I mean, you hear about all these people running missionaries in awful places--putting their families in harm's way and all I can think about is,"What made them do it?" What were they thinking before they said--I think I'll go to Zimbobawue and preach. What's makes people like that different than people like us? They truly give their all. Money, family, security, everything. What do we do?? Read our Bibles, pay $20 a week, go to church once a week. That just doesn't seem right??

I worry that if I don't reach that level of commitment to Christ, I may be left behind. But I honestly don't think I could put my family in harm's way. I don't think I could leave my job and my house and my air conditioning, blah, blah. That's why I feel like a lukewarm. I believe, but I don't give my all to spreading his word. That's scary.

Edited October 6, 2004 by mrduke

[MrDuke]

Just wanted to say I really enjoyed the brief exchange with you guys. At the very least, I got some of this weight off my shoulders.

 

Just to offer another facet to this forum, if it hasn't already been done, I'd be happy to field any drug questions (legal drugs only) for those people who may have some(questions, not drugs).

 

Let me know if it's do-able.

[ConGregation]

My pastor preached a message a couple of years ago called 'Perfection in the Home'. That sermon really opened my eyes to a lot of things. I won't preach the message but the gest of it was that when we strive to be righteous in order to be 'better' than others it will be a bad situation in the home. He dealt with some things though in the message.

 

God doesn't want us to feel guilty all the time. Peace is what He wants to give. The self righteous person will always feel guilty because we have no self righteousness before God. Our righteousness is like filthy rags. So we must depend on God's righteousness. And as we come to God with a 'contrite and broken' heart he gives us peace. That verse (in Psalms 51) is interesting. We SHOULD feel guilty for our sins, that is the work of the Holy Spirit. But when we get right with God we are to come with a broken spirt (God will not despise it). I have found myself trying to 'repent' of my sins by doing good in order to get back to God. Basically to feel better about myself but now we are right back to self righteousness. In the verse it says that God does not desire sacrifice. I find myself trying to bring sacrifices to justify the forgivenss God gives. When the right way to come back is broken. Nothing in my hand. No peace offerings. No gifts. Then we have the litmus test of repentence when God talks about works meet for repentence.

 

Rambling I know. As far as telling people the good works you do that is totally up to what you feel God wants. Many times I like to keep 'good deeds' private just to prove to myself that I am not seeking glory for myself. But the Bible also says to let our light shine before men to bring glory to God which would be what you described. So it is totally a matter of letting the Holy Spirit lead you. You have the right motives and that is the biggest part of the equation.

 

Again, God does not call everyone to suffer or even choose to suffer. It would be a problem if you knew God wanted you to put yourself in harms way but chose not to. But just be careful of making choices for God based on how God is using others. God calls us all to live holy, etc. But as far as 'going to Africa' or 'giving all your money away' or quitting your job, just be sure it comes from God and is not an attempt to appease a guilty conscience or bring glory to yourself.

[auggybendoggy]

agian, cong beat me to it.

 

I don't mean Dont ever tell anyoen you prayed or you do pray cause if you do your going to hell.

 

If God leads you to share with them THEN DO!!! I simply meant don't pray so you can feel good or your can tell others you do.

 

If you feel you can communicate your faith w/o sounding like your bragging then I would say do it. You don't want to sound holier than thou. But you also don't want to hide your light.

 

Love em man, thats what I say.

 

Aug

[MrDuke]

I thought I would post something here because I've answered my own question.

Since my earlier postings, my family has endured a great deal of hardship. It took a real crisis to bring my faith to a whole new level.

So, the NEW MrDuke's reply to the OLD MrDuke's question is this:

 

If your gut is telling you something is missing, then there is.

Someone who truly has a relationship with Christ doesn't feel the emptiness that I described earlier. It takes 2 people to make a relationship work and He is always striving from his side...the question is whether or not you are you striving from your side.

 

I can honestly say there is more love, understanding, compassion, praying and repentance in the NEW MrDuke. It feels good.