a question :)

[Trouble .gc]

i belive that on my judgement day, God will look at me and see all the wonderful things i have done for others and that i believe in Jesus Christ as the one true God? am i right to believe this?

 

does it matter what i have done in my lifetime as long as i know who my God is and what i believe? isnt that all that should matter? i know what i believe in, and i know what i think is right...so shouldn't God see that i am very loving, and put much thought into why i think that this is personally ok?

 

sometimes i go on these spiritual quests and question my beliefs...but in the end, i honestly think that what i think is ok, and i don't want to be neg. judged when it comes my time.

[Fatty]

This is one of those "good person" questions, it seems. Here's some questions to consider.

 

When you say "i know who my God is," how far does that really go and what does it mean to you?

 

Further, how would you respond to this:

John 14:6 - Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.

[Watchtower]

I'd say when she refers to Jesus as "her one true God", then you have the answer.. I'm sure she'll elaborate..

[Trouble .gc]

When you say "i know who my God is," how far does that really go and what does it mean to you?

 

well it means that i believe in one God. it means that i believe Jesus is the son of man. i believe that he will come again.

how far does it go? well...i wouldn't call myself the best christian in the world...i go agains alot of things that the catholic church would consider wrong. i have not been to repent in quite some time. the last time i went to church was easter day, by force. i don't feel that i need to go to church to praise god. i've actually been rather turned off by church. they preach about money in their sermons, and that is something that i do not agree with.

 

 

John 14:6 - Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me

 

this says to me, that Jesus is the way, truth and life. You have to follow jesus to get to god. is there a right and wrong answer?

 

i prefer this one more Proverbs 3:5-6

Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight

[dwEEziL]

Sounds like you will be ok. Just remember, being a good person has nothing to do with "getting into heaven". It is acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross that allows your sins to be washed away. I know many "good" people that haven't accepted Christ. Good intentions and deeds is not the "way" to heaven, Jesus is.

 

Based on what you have typed above, I would definitely consider you a sister in the Lord.

[Bubblegum Bandit]

they preach about money in their sermons, and that is something that i do not agree with. 

I 100% agree with you on this. This caused me to leave church as well for awhile. I went to church one weekend and the Pastor told us that the church had brought in financial consultants to look at our income and show us how to tithe more!!!! My opinion is, my tithe is between me and God. I do tithe, and I pray a lot about how much I should.

 

Coming from that incedent....The first time I went to the church I go to now, there was one mention about money in the service....just before the offering...and what they said impressed me and they say it every service and then don't talk about it any further...

 

"Its time for the offering, this is how the members of the church show their greatfulness to God and help the church. If you are not a regular here, or you are here because you are searching, please feel free to let the bag pass you by." (something to that effect)

 

Just remember, being a good person has nothing to do with "getting into heaven". It is acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross that allows your sins to be washed away. I know many "good" people that haven't accepted Christ. Good intentions and deeds is not the "way" to heaven, Jesus is.

 

I totally agree with this. Sometimes I get the feeling that when people hear Christians say that something is wrong, because they are Christian, everybody assumes that they are pointing fingers and they themselves think they can do no wrong . I have been a Christian for many many years, and I've done things that I KNOW are wrong (kinda sounds like what you are saying Trouble), but I know that I accepted Jesus into my heart and my life and like Dweez says, that's all it takes.

 

Now, to kinda piggyback on the topic.....You cannot buy your way into heaven by doing good deeds. This is pretty much understood. But, what about storing up riches in heaven? I can't remember the verse exactly. This is based on you deeds in life isn't it? So I'm wondering how people think this will be. (I know this is 100% hypothetical because no one will know until they are there) But, heirarchy in heaven? I kinda have the feeling that I don't really care as long as I'm there....you know, but any thoughts on this idea?

[ConGregation]

I think the verse you are thinking of is something like... lay not up treasure on earth where moth dust corrupt, but lay up treasure in Heaven.

 

It is an interesting thought. I do know that in Heaven we will receive crowns and that we will cast them at Jesus' feet. Obviously treasure in Heaven would be different than treasure down here. And if a crown is considered treasure it is just going to be given right back to the Lord.

 

But I am with you... I will just be happy to be there. Even if I'm 'mucking out the stables'.

[Fatty]

I believe a couple things that have to do directly with this topic:

 

No matter how good you are, nor how bad you are, matter to God. You can't be good enough, nor be too bad.

 

God doesn't need nor want our money. He wants our hearts. He's way bigger than our contributions, but is faithful to us. Giving money comes as a joy, and I've NEVER EVER looked back at an offering and said, "Man, I wish I had that money back." It's truly amazing. Freaky amazing. God is faithful.

[Trouble .gc]

it depends on why you are giving the money...because you want to, or because the church you go to just built something they couldn't afford.

[dwEEziL]

True Trouble, that is why Fatty said God wants our hearts. It kind of reminds me of the story of Ananias and Sapphira (Acts chapter 5), where they sold some property and gave half the money to the church but told the church they gave the whole amount.

[duk]

I haven't read everything on this topic, tho i should. Just wanted to mention something about the first post and how my youth pastor explained it to me...

 

If you think before Jesus was sent to die for our sins you think of people burning sheep and sacraficing that for their sins. Again you see sheeps blood on the doors when moses called upon the plagues...

 

When the angel of death saw the sheeps blood on the doors it passed over, when we accept Jesus into our hearts its accepting his blood for ours. When God sees that we have the blood of the Lamb on us... he to, will pass over us and where we have failed.

 

Don't know if this helps... but felt obligated to post here.

Edited June 2, 2004 by duk

[Trouble .gc]

that was a nice post...definately another way to look at it....thanks for sharing your thoughts

[auggybendoggy]

troubs,

I will go a different route then the standard fundamentalilst.

 

I would say watch what you do. I don't totally agree with "being a good person doesnt get you to heaven" because my bible tells me only those who are obedient go to heaven.

 

Intellect will not save you. Sadly this is where I feel many have misunderstood Jesus.

 

Is it better to do evil and believe in the forgivness of Jesus?

or to practice what Jesus teaches without intellecually grasping Jesus as God?

 

I feel the church banks too much on intellect. Jesus did not come saying do as you please but believe in me. Rather he stressed the hear God's word and put it into practice.

 

I tend to think good people will go to heaven and evil people will go to hell.

 

Some think they will practice evil but grasp the gospel and be saved yet I hear Jesus saying he will tell them "I never knew you".

 

The real test troubs is do you REALLY believe Jesus' teachings?

compassion, mercy, forgiveness, love, love your enemies, sacrafice yourself for others, and LOVE GOD; if you follow these things you are a disciple of Jesus I believe.

 

If you read Romans 2 you'll see Paul says if someone holds the law and has not heard the law he shows the law is written in his heart and God will honor that man.

 

So if so called christians come to India and put a gun to a hindus head saying "do you accept Jesus as your lord and savior" be assured the person at the end of the gun can accept Jesus by denying the devil holding the gun. The true man of God is the one who holds to Jesus' teachings, intellect or no intellect.

 

With that said I do believe that if one holds to Jesus' teachings he will read Jesus and follow.

 

I feel there need to be clarification on "being good to get to heaven".

being good is what Jesus wants us to do. BUT it's always out of love.

pauls says in cor 13 "if I surrender my body to flames but have not love it is in vain".

 

For whether we eat, drink or whatever we do DO ALL FOR THE GLORY OF GOD.

 

God bless,

 

Auggy

[ConGregation]

Being good... This is a work. A work that is accomplished (spiritually) by a work of God IN us. This is a christian perspective. We obey... BECAUSE we love. Love is the reason. Not fear. Not doubt. Love. If I am doing 'good works' to become accepted by God then I will fall short.

 

The example I give is the Law. In the O.T. God set forth his law. A HUGE lists of commands that entailed EVERY aspect of life. As you could probably surmise, this Law was impossible to keep. God even says this in the N.T. It even says that the law is our 'schoolmaster' to bring us to God. In other words, the Law shows us that we are not holy but weak and full of sin. Many men and women have set out to get to God by 'keeping' the Law. But its clear that "By the Law shall no flesh be justified in His sight".

 

Auggybendoggy left out one VERY important thing in his post. He mentions works and intellect. He contrasts these two things. God contrasted something very different with 'works'... faith.

 

For by grace are ye saved through faith... that not of works...

 

It even says that what we consider our righteousness is as filthy rags in the sight of God. If we can be as good as God then our 'being good' would be sufficient. When you can grasp the word faith then you can have assurance of salvation. In fact, it is the only way to get to God.

 

If you don't understand what I am trying to say (most people don't) let me know and I will try to explain it better.

[auggybendoggy]

I totally agree with cong.

 

My point being that those who are truly believers (true faith) are those who live it.

 

My tension congregation with scripture is one I feel many christains cop out or b.s. through....

The verse you quote in ephesians; Paul saying apart from works, is contradicted by James who says "so we see that a man is justified by what he does." I've heard just about ever excuse, the main one being "justified does not mean saved", yet I like Martin Luther sees this as problematic with our doctrines. Martin Luther said get rid of the book of James

But dont forget that God also compared Works and Faith

For we see that faith w/o works is dead...

and we see that a man is justified by what he does.

 

I don't think saying works plays a part in salvation is the same as saying "obey all rules and you'll be saved". Rather I see it saying "obey God and you will be saved" BUT like you said IN LOVE.

for w/o love its all DEAD.

 

So I am not arguing that if you can obey the 10 commandements you'll be saved rather I'm saying if you love God you will obey his commands which may break the 10 commandments such as bearing false witness.

 

I do feel people dont give credit to the book of James on the basis he flat out says "We are justified by what we do" and Paul says in romans "no man is justified by his works". Contradiction? I don't think it is on the basis that when paul speaks of works he means obeying traditional rules. For paul never says OUR BEHAVIOR DOES NOT MATTER. Rather he and Jesus both provoke peopel to GOOD WORKS which we were all created for.

 

It is true that God does all good in us and he gets all glory. Anyone who does not get that I feel sad for.

 

But anyhow, I'm not convinced cause someone like a JW or Mormon does not believe tirninty they are excluded from salvation.

 

I tend to think God will judge us based on our life and what we practice which is a product of our faith.

Auggy

[ConGregation]

You are almost right

 

You are absolutely right in that our faith will produce works. I do spiritual works based upon the work of faith inside me. Even the good works done by a 'carnal' or unaved person have no spiritual benefit. The Bible says without faith it is impossible to please God. So faith comes first! Then works.

 

James is a great book. I am very comfortable with my interpretation. It would seem that the Bible contradicts itself because in Romans and other places it says that we are not justified by works and yet in James it says plainly that we are justified by works. Without looking up the passage remember he says 'show me your faith by your works'. I think that is the key to the chapter. Then at the end of the chapter he says plainly that we are justified by works. So from reading the context it is easy to see that the justification is before man. "Man looketh on the the outward appearance, but God looketh on the heart" My works are a proof to others that God really has done something on the inside.

 

Anyway, that is my take on the passage. But you should read it again and see if its the right take or not. Many times I find myself putting God into a little box when actually he is far greater than that. But he gave us the Bible and that is how I met him. So this stuff is important.

 

But again I don't think we are far off in this area. As long as we can agree that faith is first

[ConGregation]

I said that we were mostly in agreement. but your statement that JW's and Mormons I cannot agree on. It is not a doctrine of the Trinity but much more serious matters that we are in a disagreement about.

 

Anyway, just a little clarification. Didn't want to give anyone the wrong idea

[Fatty]

We just have to be careful not to get caught in the "good person" judgement....as it's very clear that there's one way to God. Trouble mentions it (Him) in her first sentence.

[auggybendoggy]

I have no issues with Jesus being the only provider for salvation (reconciliation to God) for all men.

 

My encouragement to Trouble is that she does not have to conform to the church's idea of what a christian or true believer really is.

 

If T or anyone else practices Jesus' teachings no matter what religion they belong to they are true christians.

 

In Luke 8 Jesus mentions "those who HEAR God's word and put it into practice"... It is not the "put it into practice" that I am questioning.

I am questioning the "Hear God's word".

 

James is clear about put it into practice. To do good works is to have true love. But James goes beyond this statement of "if you love you will act" he states clearly that we are justified by what we do.

 

I take it he means it for what he says. The problem I think people have is that they take everything literally. Thus, I do not agree any act or deed which we execute saves us. It is by the mercy of God by which we are saved. But the language of "justified by what we do" is used none-the-less.

 

Paul uses a similar type of figurative language to timothy...

"if you do these things you will save yourself and your hearers"...

If taken literally then one can save oneself. But we KNOW that only God can save us. None-the-less he used the language and thus I agree that we can too.

 

Fatty makes the point I'm (at this time in my life) coming to. That is if you teach or use the language of salvation by works the self man becomes overwhelmed with pride and forgets God's mercy.

 

But I will argue also that if we go too far on the "We are not saved by what we do" that we can think our intellectual understanding of the gospel saves us.

 

It is here that my issue lies with the churches I've been raised in.

 

I feel people believe because of our Trumping of grace, that if one understands intellectually that Jesus Dies for his sins and accepts that fact and claims the blood on his life that he is sealed by God for redemption.

 

I am questioning the "claiming" part of this matter. If a man does not claim it, does not understand it or rejects it INTELLECTUALLY but holds to the same teachings of Jesus is he anti-christ or a believer?

 

We would normally come to reason that if someone lives the teachings of Jesus in his/her life that he/she will not reject Jesus.

But in fact if the gospel is brought at the end of a gun or knife (violence...aka Nazis killing christ killers) then the person rejecting such a gospel is doing the right thing by rejecting the Violent Gospel.

 

See the difference I see is that we conclude the Intellectual understanding is where faith resides. But I think Faith is rooted deeper then this. For if a man has a gospel preached with violence should he say "I agree with you but your wrong for killing people" or should he say "I dont agree with you for you are killing people"?

I feel the person could say "I want nothing to do with you" just as Jesus told the pharisees (who were people of the mosaic law) "Sons of satan".

 

With all this said my point is that Jesus came not to judge and told us how to live. It is on this premise that Chrales Finney pushed to reformed christians that they were to act out their salvation with good works (of course they called him a heretic). But I agree with Finney,

if indeed our behaviour does matter than we must act in accordance with the spirit. If we do not then our faith is false. Enter the book of James. James is doing this very exhortation telling people "Just because you intellectually grasp God's work and nature does not save you" but rather "WORKS with FAITH" unto God justifies us.

 

Auggy

[auggybendoggy]

to add a bit more on the issue of faith and works, grace and judging,

I will add that in the doctrines that I've been raised (baptist, pentecostal, non-denominational, calvery chapel) I have not heard fair and good reason to the tension of the Salvation by grace and the "we are justified by what we do" from the pulpit.

 

I feel that if we teach that works have nothing to do with salvation

EPH 2: for we are saved by grace thru faith APART from works...

 

then we teach that our works have no part in our "GETTING" saved.

 

We ofter judge jw and mormons for their "works" orientated salvation.

but if one breakes down their position it is as our own (protestant).

the difference is the language of "we are saved by what we do".

 

In speaking to a mormon (recently) he states one must be baptized.

He then commits to the fact that baptism is a commandment. Protestatns agree that baptism is the first act of obedience (calvary chapel). He then commits if you love Jesus you will obey his teachings and commandments. Protestants agree "if you truly love God you will obey (prot interpretation of James)". Thus in the mind of the mormon if you do not obey you are not truly a believer. Protestans DONT AGREE.

 

The protestant then moves away from the position and towards an extreme grace position which is whether you DO good deeds (obedience) or not has nothing to do with if you are saved, for we are saved by grace. We are not perfect and thus we plea the blood of Jesus and we are cleansed of our sins past, present, future, and now we continue to be saved in disobediance....

BUT

when the interpretation of James comes in the position is quickly abandoned for a reasonable explanation of James' words.

thus the protestant says "if you truly love God you will obey if you do not obey then you do not truly love God." and the contradiction is complete.

 

So how do I feel about all this?

 

I feel the problem for Mormons and JW's is the same of the protestant....that is he is despretaly evil. Greed is at the heart of man and I feel it and Pride work together within us (no devil needed) mornon, jw, baptist, hindu to corrupt us at our very core.

Thus I believe we are not better than the mormon who by our fruits (good works) are testing ourselves daily to see if we are in the faith.

When we fail we are forgiven. The mormon does not need to re-enter the mormon faith he simply asks for forgiveness...do we not do the same? The mormon believes one can lose salvation...do not many protestants believe the same. The mormon believes Jesus went to South America...ok their smoking something good but my point is

we are not better in our doctrine.

 

If our teaching methods are better, then why does Jesus state about the church "many will come on that day and say lord, we casted out all kinds of demons and healed the sick and Jesus replies I never knew you, depart from me."

 

This is the church. I am convinced that they believe their intellecutal understanding of Grace and acceptance of the facts made them believers and hearers. but in fact it is our practice of our lives (love, compassion, forgivness, patience, kindness, mercy) that will save us.

for if its not then Jesus wasted ALOT of time teaching this stuff.

 

Auggy

[dwEEziL]

I always see the "Faith v. Works" this way. Paul said "by grace you have been saved through faith". James said "Faith without works is dead". So which one is right? Taken in proper context (my interpretation I know) Paul is describing the actual action of our salvation while James is describing the results of that salvation. Because we are saved by grace through faith, it will results in "good" works (good meaning those beneficial to the Kingdom of God). If no works are not present, then the action did occur or you are still very young in your spiritual life.

 

That's how I see it, Paul describes the event while James describes the result.

[ConGregation]

Let the Bible be your guide.

 

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

 

I feel those verses are VERY clear on the subject. Yes, Auggybendoggy, I believe works has nothing to do with my 'getting saved' or 'staying saved'. James only shows that we are justified in the sight of man by our works.

[auggybendoggy]

I totally undersand that position but it does not fare with the natural reading of James.

 

There is a reason why Martin Luther wanted this book ommited.

Again My appreciation for Martin for speaking his heart and shooting straight.

 

Dweez,

I too have that sympathy with rendering James that way.

However I must agree with Luther that James does not stop there.

His statements of...

"was not our Father Abraham justified by works"

or

"by works was faith perfect"

or

"ye see then how that by works a man is justified and NOT BY FAITH ALONE".

 

I think James is contradicting to paul in a natural reading. I do see the traditional reason of ture faith produces deeds. However James is using the language most protestants fear to use (as if it takes away from God).

 

I feel James is attacking the belief in Intellectual salvation. This what I'm wrestling with at this point. That is the statement "works have nothing to do with salvation" or "Grace alone Faith alone...NOT WORKS" These 2 statments dont seem to comply with James. Seems James has a circular reason of Faith produces works and the works prefect the faith. So we see people who know the facts of the gospel and embrace them with their minds are not necesserily saved.

 

My only issue with congregations last post is that it seems to imply that works is not a part of this salvation. Which I think James is attacking. It seems to disregard the book of James.

cause in and of itself James does not release people unto intellectual salvation.

 

I think the misunderstanding is that accepting the grace of God does not save us in pauls words. It is the Grace of God itself that saves us.

It is not in what we think or do but in God's actions toward us.

 

As for the works I don't think paul means works as in "good works" but rather meaning works with no love; ritual, ceremonial, obligation.

these works dont save people but the action of Love does.

so in such a way I think we can say works do save people.

Paul tells timothy "if you do these things you will save yourself and your hearers". This is what I mean...Is paul a heretic for saying this...Today we are so quick to judge that if a man says this hes WRONG or if he repeats James "we see we are justified by what we do" people cry Heretic. But I think if we say "your actions done in the Love of God will save you" I dont think its heresy.

 

Also,

 

If we hold to a strict view of "works" is not a part or our salvation or starying saved then our behavior is not to be watched for it does not matter which is where James is coming from. Seems to me that Jesus did not come saying just believe these facts but rather told people how to live and who to live unto (God). I've heard people say the epistles are doctrinal while the gospels are about the life of Jesus. I would say the gospels are doctrinal. The doctrine Jesus and Paul seem to place above all is Love. Before grace it's love. Before faith its' love again.

 

why does the scriptures tell us to discipline and behave? If indeed our actions do not matter than a man CAN be wicked and go to heaven.

 

Keith Green stated "if your a wicked man you go to hell, if your a righteouss man you go to heaven" His point was dont think cause you grasp all these spiritual doctrines that you are saved. His point was focus on God and seek his kingdom firstly.

 

I dont find it all that confusing on what God wants of us but I do see doctrines as being imperfect especially when we judge others for not holding to them (mormons or JW's). I'm not saying they are as good off as we are...I'm sayign were as bad off as they are cause our intellegence or intellect wont save us....

so you say there is one God....SO WHAT!

We tend to think today..."ah you believe in One God you must be a christian"...

 

In other words I think if you weigh James into the equation Luther is right that it is problematical for us protestants.

 

Auggy

[Playaa]

I think what James says is pretty obvious (though clearly others don't agree)

I look at it kinda like a new job...your boss hires you based upon your resume and the interview...but after you get the job you don't hafta do an ounce of work...but then you wouldn't keep the job.

I think that's what James is saying....sorta....it's not a perfect analogy.

 

basically I think James is saying, if you believe in Christ and are saved, why WOULDN'T you do the work? It's not that you MUST do the work, it's just that there is no plausible reason whatsoever that you wouldn't do it. He even says that a man may SAY he's saved, but he'll (James) SHOW he's saved.

[ConGregation]

Again, I feel VERY comfortable with James IN the Bible. It is talking about a faith that produces works. It is all dealing with the 'outward' or physical man. I really truly began understanding the Bible when I realized that 90% of it is dealing with the spiritual man. This is the man that God sees and the one that man does not. I cannot literally show you my salvation, but you can still see its effects. Like Jesus in John 3 saying the wind blows and you don't see it... but you can see the effect of the wind on objects around you. A real spiritual work (a work of God produced in us based on FAITH) will carry over to the outward man. But that outward man can do nothing to achieve a work in the spiritual man. For that matter, the spiritual man cannot either because there is nothing good in it. All it can do is cry for mercy.

 

Ok, I'm sure that was kinda confusing, but it makes sense in my brain

 

To think that there is any work that we can do that can compare to the work of Christ on the cross is almost sacreligious. Do you truly understand the work He did? The Bible uses MANY pictures of what happened.

 

In Romans 5 it shows how he died for sinners, NOT good men.

 

In 2Corinthians 5 it shows that Christ became sin that we might be made righteousness.

 

In Colossians 2 it shows how that God, unable to justly reconcile us, did the only thing possible and took care of the offending article... the Law. It is like we are standing before a judge guilty. But the judge in order to justify us takes the law that would condemn us and gets rid of it (this is done by the blood of Jesus, it says "blotting out the ordinances against us).

 

There are so many in scriptures. And they all have one thing to say. Salvation is acquired only one way. It is by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Again, scripture makes it very plain that this is achieved by faith.

 

Did you sit down and read James again? Approach it from the our explanation and you see it makes sense. If you have one passage disagreeing with several others than you can usually see the true meaning by just letting the Holy Spirity 'guide you into all truth'.

 

I am not trying to come off as argumentative (else this should be moved ) But I feel this is paramount to truly knowing God. I know some might not agree but I feel if a man is trying to 'earn' his salvation then he never had it and never will. Harsh I know, but I feel its that important. Please understand I am not saying this meanly in any way cause sometimes 'text' cannot truly convey what we could convey talking face to face.

 

Very humbly,

 

Greg