Guest jdc December 20, 2002 Share Guest jdc Guests December 20, 2002 *note: I actually posted this in the DLM forums because it happened on the DLM - Mmmm Server, but I'm thinking that Forum area doesn't get much traffic...And it was [Mmmm]Leo that banned me...so I'm thinking this is the proper forum? Eh, whateva...here goes... I was banned. I would like to defend myself. Date: 12.19.2002 Time: 7:54 EST Banner: Leo (I believe) Reason: Cheating, I guess? Defense: Well...I don't cheat. "Suspicious" Moments: Killing those last three CT's guarding the bomb - Honestly, that was pure luck. I should have died. Shooting at the wall where MushMan was - I heard someone fall and started awp spraying. I knew someone was there because a teammate died in that area...heck, a bunch of teammates died in that area. I figured I could at least draw the CT out to start shooting or making noise so my teammate who went through the little room could come up on him or something. Turning around and headshotting [OSU]<something> - I definitely heard him fall from that upper level, and I remember him heading in that direction. In response to "knowing" he was that vicinity...I saw on my radar where most of the Terrorists were, and since he was the last guy alive, he'd probably be in the empty area of the radar. Shooting through the wall with an awp for no apparent reason - I didn't really expect to do anything...there was only one CT left and about 2 seconds until the bomb exploded, and I heard the door open...obviously that's where the last CT was so I just shot through, no reason not to...I had a chance (negligible) to get an outrageous kill...worst that could happen is nothing would happen...oh, and nothing did happen (for people that might take that the wrong way). Other than that, I don't know what else. Inconsistent play - I like to play while I study; sometimes I study, sometimes I forget to study and actually play. I usually play terribly when I first start because that's when I'm more focused on studying; then I do poorly and play more instead of studying...but that may depend on the exam date or my mood. "Stupid" play - It's not a clan match, and I don't really take it that seriously so I usually play aggressively (AKA foolishly). That way, I get a fairly quick fill of action and can die quickly and do some reading. However, I can't really defend myself past these points without someone accusing me first; otherwise I have no way of explaining myself. I don't cheat, and my clan can pretty much vouch for me CNT|- or [TMNT], whichever one you see more. I enjoy playing on DLM, and I'd hate to be banned for a false belief of cheating. It's been tough finding an active server with a decent community receptive to outside players, especially after my usual servers pretty much died. So....give me a break? At least tell me how I can prove my innocence or purity or anticheatingness or whatever... I'll keep checking back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draco December 20, 2002 Share Draco Member December 20, 2002 I believe this guy...... i saw him playing and i dont think he cheats...... he was really good but just my 2 cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest leo December 20, 2002 Share Guest leo Guests December 20, 2002 I wish your shots were as authentic as your sincerity I was watching the demo i made of you...using opengl hacks to see if you knew where everyone was Map:de_inferno 1) He was on the outer balcony of the house the whole time. Once the esp came up on the demo playback, you stopped, and started moving side to side firing. 2) That headshot was practically noscope, you took less than 1 second to aim and fire performing a 180º turn as well... If you are sincere, then i apologize for my misjudgement and belief in another's word Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurtz December 20, 2002 Share Kurtz Member December 20, 2002 Lets see the demo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest leo December 20, 2002 Share Guest leo Guests December 20, 2002 not the best piece of work... http://www.mmmmcs.com/demos/jdc.zip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Hurricane December 20, 2002 Share Guest The Hurricane Guests December 20, 2002 nice demo...it was hax imo. gj leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jdc December 20, 2002 Share Guest jdc Guests December 20, 2002 I honesly have never used a cheat. I have read the forums and gathered some information, but this was back when a server I was admin on was more active. Nowadays, the server is empty, and outdated (HLGuard 1.20 !?). However, my point is, I never used cheats, and I haven't started now. I have watched movies of cheats and supposed cheats in action (during the forementioned era) so I have an idea of what you might have seen. But anyhow, enough of that... 1) Like I mentioned, I did a bit of "research" (heh, actually just the United Admin's site) and learned a little about ESP. ESP works by detecting sound...so basically, when ESP came up, it did because it detected/registered/(whatever?) a sound. We now know that MushMan was close to where I was at the time, so sounds he would make would be heard by me! So of course ESP and I made the same "detection" because we (semantically correct?) both heard him drop! I believe that's a valid explanation...On a sidenote, I will admit ESP is difficult to detect because it basically works the same exact way an experienced player works...by sound. Notice however, that I was strafing and awp spraying instead of playing like a wall hacker and waiting him out. If I was a cheater, strafing and spraying would be a fairly foolish move...better options would have been to alert my teammate or to sneak up on him. 2) I'm confused about this one; do you mean on MushMan or [OSU]<?>? I'll assume you mean [OSU] because that's the one I did a turn around for: Well, I knew he was definitely there because I definitely heard him drop...it was loud...it could have been a teammate, but my radar said otherwise. In addition I knew he was somewhere in the area because I saw him leave the small ramp...he had only two options: the upper or lower level....So that explains how I know it was him. For the 180 degree turn...I play with sensitivity 18 which is why my movements are jerky and sharp and "quick." It should also explain those moments when it looks like my mouse is going crazy or I'm staring at a wall. I have an MS Intellimouse Explorer (sweet mouse!) which tracks very well, but the STINKING CORD ALWAYS GETS IN THE WAY!!! (heh, I really need a mouse bungee). Also, but mousepad sucks (Curtis fabric pad or something?)...maybe I can take a picture if I break out the webcam, heh...anyhow, sometimes I have to flick the mouse until I find a decent spot on the mousepad, especially for my high sensitivity....oh yeah...anyhow: I did scope for that shot; and to be honest, I wasn't aiming for his head (I'm not that good, and awp only takes one hit usually anyhow). I thought it was more than one second? Anyhow, I think I've gotten fairly decent with the awp (old skool...I played the first public beta! then decided it sucked and went back to TFC), and the shot I made on him wasn't even that amazing. I knew where he was, I knew where he was probably going (low probability he'd go back to where he just ran from through that small tunnel), and I knew where his body would pop out from that alley. I just had to hold the reticle over the area, lead him maybe a little, and fire. I swear I took more than one second though; it felt like I tracked him for about 1 (game) meter. Ermm...So I think I explained those situations? I'll try to be more helpful if needed. I understand these situations, though. It's really tough to deal with cheaters, and I've been banned before so I realize that my playing style might resemble cheating. However, I've always been able to explain the situation. In fact, I had taken to demoing every single game I played just in case...I turned in demos 2 times, and the requesters usually saw what I saw...And I got some sweet kills (for a movie someday...HA)....But it got to be a huge pain because before every game I would have to type "record <demoname>" and "stop" after every game. AND sometimes the demos became corrupted. AND I always missed the pistol round!!! (and I think you know how much I like USP'ing). AND the demos started taking a huge amount of space. So I just started getting lazy; I didn't think I'd have to deal with it anymore Heh, you have no idea how sincere I am. Everytime a server bans me (not many really, only one refused to unban), I feel obligated to defend myself because it just feels so unjust (Obsessive-Compulsive!?). Heck, I don't even use scripts...well, except for jump-crouch, but that's because I use the Numpad for movement and for some reason it doesn't register PgUp and PgDn simultaneously so I can't jump-crouch that way. I even think using a mark in the middle of the monitor is a bit cheap! I hope I at least explained those episodes. I wouldn't mind explaining anything else...so please, debate me! I'd also like to add that sometimes you should also view the demo without cheats. Using cheats can be helpful to show exactly what a cheater is seeing, but it also shows what a noncheater doesn't know. So if noncheater hits someone through a wall by deduction or even luck, using a wall hack will likely "prove" this as an obvious cheat, even if the subject wasn't using a cheat. If you watch without cheats, it might help you realize why I did somethings. Basically, it lets you perceive what I perceive...and realize that the information was enough for me to do what I did. If I'm not making sense, I apologize, but it's really difficult to defend myself...especially since guild is so easily "proven" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jdc December 20, 2002 Share Guest jdc Guests December 20, 2002 I just watched the demo: 1) I still don't really understand why this was so "suspicious?" The first sound may have been me, but there was definitely a second sound that would alert me to his presence. So...I knew he was there. I started shooting the wall because there would be a chance for me to hit him, and if I didn't then it would accomplish my second objective, which was to alert my teammate (I have no voice comm) who knew I had an awp and went through the small room. By awping, I would either (a) kill him, ( not kill him and alert my teammate to flank, © die and alert my teammate, (d) he camps and I still alert my teammate. I just don't see what was wrong with this episode. 2) I don't know if your demo reflects lag, but it stuttered a bit. In the section where I almost noscope headshot [OSU], I'm fairly sure it missed a bit of my perspective. In the demo it looks like I completely miss him even though I headshot him, but I don't see what's wrong with this? In my eyes, I turned because I heard him drop, and prepared to fire before he came out of the alley. 3) It seems you were mentioning something else that was the convincing factor. I would like to defend my position on whatever this was, if that's alright. 4) I'd like to add the demo was recorded with a bias against me already, which might color the analyzation of the situations in the demo. So I'd like to respectfully bring up this point. Thank you. 5) Actually I had no idea you were watching. I did notice you suiciding one time, and I did notice DarkAngel's "slip," but I didn't really thing you suspected me of anything ("hey, I know I don't cheat why would anyone suspect me!" was pretty much my outlook at the moment). So yeah, that ban was pretty surprising. It's a bit frustrating. I really have no idea how I can convince you I don't cheat, especially since a few of the admins seem to be biased against me already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest catalystgs December 20, 2002 Share Guest catalystgs Guests December 20, 2002 I watched the demo and, while it is suspicious, I think that he doesn't cheat. Here's something for everyone to try: Take a demo of yourself and watch for suspicious moments. If you have good headphones/speakers I'm sure there are times where it looks like you cheat. Sound plays a big part in how people play this game. Without directional sound this game would be completely different. Try to look at it from jdc's situation - He just had some lucky moments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jdc December 20, 2002 Share Guest jdc Guests December 20, 2002 I'd also like to add: Refering to (1) (awping at the wall where MushMan was), if you watch with a wallhack and see what a wallhacker would see, you would make the conclusion "oh he's obviously cheating" because the information you use to determine MushMan's location is obviously from the cheat/wallhack/whatever. However, if you watch it without the cheat, you'll realize that without the information from the wallhack, I could still draw the a similar conclusion (maybe not exact but similar enough to motivate my actions). Without the cheat and from my perspective, I heard one suspicious noise and one definite noise from the same location-->I knew he was there, and from experience, I knew his likely locations (behind that wall, under the balcony, or at the far end looking up to the balcony. If he was behind, then "spraying" the wall would be practical. If he was at the far end or under, spraying would draw him out for my teammate...also practical. With the cheat, I assume you would see his position when ESP detected the noise he made. Then it would lead to the same conclusion I made by hearing his sound and using experience. So the situation with and without a cheat would lead to the same conclusion, which weakens that episode as evidence of cheating. Actually, doing what I did would be a bit foolish if I were using cheats. It would have made more sense to actually take a few seconds to message my teammate. The CT probably wouldn't make a move in, so I would have time to type, and it would be less suspicious because I wouldn't actually do anything suspicious. I think ESP gives the weapon and health data? ( http://www.unitedadmins.com/HLGuard_OGC.aspx ) so it wouldn't have really been a good decision for me to go up against a CT from that spot when the CT has position (even if i knew exactly where) and a Colt when I had an awp. In addition, I'm assuming you used ESP because I believe HLGuard and VAC both block opengl-type wallhacks: they simply don't send that information to the client http://www.unitedadmins.com/HLGuard_WH.aspx --> But of course you can rationalize this by saying I thought of this at the time and was going to use this as an explanation or whatever... Sigh, so frustrating Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[c2d]all killer no filler December 20, 2002 Share [c2d]all killer no filler Member December 20, 2002 HAHAHHA, im sorry had to get that out! First off i know this is none of my business but......i have been playing cs longer then most of you and before most of you even heard of this GAME. After watching the demo i am really not sure i should go on your server or i would be banned for hacking if i used an alias.... That was NOT hacking, for example, if he was hacking, dont you think he would have killed ppl faster then that and would have known where they were coming from and just nailed them as they come around a corner?!?! Also. besides the fact that he wasnt even playing good, how is that 180 awp kill even considered as being a hack! Im sorry but im sure most of you have done a 180 and shot someone IN THE BACK ! no h4x there. The no-scope awping in the apt. part of the map, it took him 4 shots to finally kill him, and in case you didnt know, YES awp's can shoot through the walls so why wouldnt you take a chance at shooting him through the wall, you got nothing to lose. Not to mention, if you never noticed your crosshairs stay in the middle of the screen no matter what you do so its not that hard to get a no-scope kill. This is all besides that fact that he has a less then 1.5 kill to death ratio and less then 30% accuracy with ANY weapon he uses. h4x no. Longest kill steak of 21 no big deal, well for some of you it is im sure. Death streak of 12, hackers dont kie 12 rounds in a row. Thats all i have to say. Sorry this is none of my bussiness. Oh yea, one more thing, he should be unbanned in my book, exspecially since the admins that were on at the time of the banning werent unanimous about the banning Thank you. Bye now. I got joor back jdc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jdc December 20, 2002 Share Guest jdc Guests December 20, 2002 all killer no filler,Dec 20 2002, 12:15 AM]HAHAHHA, im sorry had to get that out! First off i know this is none of my business but......i have been playing cs longer then most of you and before most of you even heard of this GAME. After watching the demo i am really not sure i should go on your server or i would be banned for hacking if i used an alias.... That was NOT hacking, for example, if he was hacking, dont you think he would have killed ppl faster then that and would have known where they were coming from and just nailed them as they come around a corner?!?! Also. besides the fact that he wasnt even playing good, how is that 180 awp kill even considered as being a hack! Im sorry but im sure most of you have done a 180 and shot someone IN THE BACK ! no h4x there. The no-scope awping in the apt. part of the map, it took him 4 shots to finally kill him, and in case you didnt know, YES awp's can shoot through the walls so why wouldnt you take a chance at shooting him through the wall, you got nothing to lose. Not to mention, if you never noticed your crosshairs stay in the middle of the screen no matter what you do so its not that hard to get a no-scope kill. This is all besides that fact that he has a less then 1.5 kill to death ratio and less then 30% accuracy with ANY weapon he uses. h4x no. Longest kill steak of 21 no big deal, well for some of you it is im sure. Death streak of 12, hackers dont kie 12 rounds in a row. Thats all i have to say. Sorry this is none of my bussiness. Oh yea, one more thing, he should be unbanned in my book, exspecially since the admins that were on at the time of the banning werent unanimous about the banning Thank you. Bye now. I got joor back jdc Thanks for your support; I appreciate it...I'm not sure if I should be happy or ego-shattered Thanks though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[c2d]all killer no filler December 20, 2002 Share [c2d]all killer no filler Member December 20, 2002 np Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Hurricane December 20, 2002 Share Guest The Hurricane Guests December 20, 2002 That was NOT hacking, for example, if he was hacking, dont you think he would have killed ppl faster then that and would have known where they were coming from and just nailed them as they come around a corner?!?!not all hackers want to make themselves so obvious... as m0ss used to say... it isn't the hackers that go 100-0 with all headies that you have to worry about... it's the ones that go 12-4 and hide it very well. not that he was doing a very good job of hiding it... Also. besides the fact that he wasnt even playing good, how is that 180 awp kill even considered as being a hack! Im sorry but im sure most of you have done a 180 and shot someone IN THE BACK ! no h4x there. Obviously he heard him jump down...this wasn't anything suspicious. The no-scope awping in the apt. part of the map, it took him 4 shots to finally kill him, and in case you didnt know, YES awp's can shoot through the walls so why wouldnt you take a chance at shooting him through the wall, you got nothing to lose. Not to mention, if you never noticed your crosshairs stay in the middle of the screen  no matter what you do so its not that hard to get a no-scope kill.thx for the update...master of the obvious... This is all besides that fact that he has a less then 1.5 kill to death ratio and less then 30% accuracy with ANY weapon he uses. h4x no. Longest kill steak of 21 no big deal, well for some of you it is im sure. Death streak of 12, hackers dont kie 12 rounds in a row. not all haxors will have a 100:0 k/d when they try to hide it. who's talking about accuracy here? I don't remember anybody accusing him of having an aimbot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest leo December 20, 2002 Share Guest leo Guests December 20, 2002 the ban was not a perm ban, it was set to 20 minutes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurtz December 20, 2002 Share Kurtz Member December 20, 2002 I was watching the demo i made of you...using opengl hacks to see if you knew where everyone was i thought you had demo with hacks runnin. it would be easier to tell that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jdc December 20, 2002 Share Guest jdc Guests December 20, 2002 That was NOT hacking, for example, if he was hacking, dont you think he would have killed ppl faster then that and would have known where they were coming from and just nailed them as they come around a corner?!?! not all hackers want to make themselves so obvious... as m0ss used to say... it isn't the hackers that go 100-0 with all headies that you have to worry about... it's the ones that go 12-4 and hide it very well. not that he was doing a very good job of hiding it... Also. besides the fact that he wasnt even playing good, how is that 180 awp kill even considered as being a hack! Im sorry but im sure most of you have done a 180 and shot someone IN THE BACK ! no h4x there.Obviously he heard him jump down...this wasn't anything suspicious. The no-scope awping in the apt. part of the map, it took him 4 shots to finally kill him, and in case you didnt know, YES awp's can shoot through the walls so why wouldnt you take a chance at shooting him through the wall, you got nothing to lose. Not to mention, if you never noticed your crosshairs stay in the middle of the screen  no matter what you do so its not that hard to get a no-scope kill. thx for the update...master of the obvious... This is all besides that fact that he has a less then 1.5 kill to death ratio and less then 30% accuracy with ANY weapon he uses. h4x no. Longest kill steak of 21 no big deal, well for some of you it is im sure. Death streak of 12, hackers dont kie 12 rounds in a row.not all haxors will have a 100:0 k/d when they try to hide it. who's talking about accuracy here? I don't remember anybody accusing him of having an aimbot... But that is a bit interesting isn't it....If I'm a cheater I'm a really strange one because I don't make myself obvious but then I'm really suspicious and "obviously" cheat? That seems a bit contradictory. So obviously you're accusing me of wallhacking or ESPing, not aimbotting. LIke he said earlier, I think I would have gotten more kills than that and had more suspicious moments. Of course you could say I didn't have it on all the time. But then again, the spots where you say I used a wallhack are pretty explanable without cheats anyhow. I noticed in the demo that Leo said that I was "caught" already, so it seems like an eariler unrecorded episode is what convinced him I cheat. I'd like to know what this was? I'm starting to think the only way to show I don't cheat is to have a witness...and since I doubt any of you live near me, it seems the best option would be to hook up a webcam while I play...it would be poor quality but...it would work. I'm going home this afternoon, so I'll be losing this fat internet pipe, but it should be possible...and the roommates won't think I'm strange for webcamming my play. If you haven't noticed, I dislike being thought of as a cheater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yErMoTH3r December 20, 2002 Share yErMoTH3r GC Founder December 20, 2002 i cheat all the time on my own server and noone ever accuses m0m of haxing. i hide it all too well. next time u see me on the server, ask me if im haxin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatty December 20, 2002 Share Fatty GC Founder December 20, 2002 That's cause even hax don't help you..... I'd ask you if all of a sudden one day you were 25-3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yErMoTH3r December 20, 2002 Share yErMoTH3r GC Founder December 20, 2002 i may be dum but im no id10t...25-3 woudl make me an id10t like sontek the other night before he turned em off and became 'normal' on italy. should be ban his donkey too? or is he supernova or whatever. face it everyone you know and play with on a daily basis has hax and most of them use em. whens 1.6 coming out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jdc December 20, 2002 Share Guest jdc Guests December 20, 2002 I was watching the demo i made of you...using opengl hacks to see if you knew where everyone was i thought you had demo with hacks runnin. it would be easier to tell that way. Actually, it might probably give a false impression. It would make more sense to watch the demo without cheats to see if what was done was possible, explanable, or probable without cheats. Inconsistent play will and does happen. Like I said, sometimes I suck if I haven't played for while, if I'm trying to study, or if I'm just really tired and just want to screw around. It also happens a lot when autoteam decides to give the CT's double the players of the T team on de_aztec and by some odd chance the CT's just happen to be the better players on at the time...and we know what kind of slaughter that can lead to. Same goes for all those "unbalanced" maps like cs_italy or cs_assault(_upc) and even de_dust. I've gone 3-14, 5-10 or so, and came back with around 27-4. I'm not saying I'm good or anything, but I'm just saying that inconsistent play could be normal. On another note, the difference came from a lot of players leaving to sleep (it was around 1-2 AM), making for a less-populated server, and me finishing studying and starting to play. I also mentioned before, I'm pretty sure opengl hacks don't work anymore because VAC and HLGuard don't even let the server send the client that information. You could see through walls, and see teammates, but without data on where the enemy was, there would be no way for the engine to render the missing information. The wallhack that actually works is ESP which uses sound data to determine player locations. Since CS is reliant on sound, it's tough to catch this hack because it basically gives the same advantage an experienced player has plus a more apparent and "reliable" illustration of the situation. I never assume people are playing with cheats. I used to be almost fanatical about it, though: I would always die early and spec them, record a demo, and write down their WON ID. But that actually took more fun out of the game than playing against cheaters. I wound up with some pretty incrimination demos (even enough to convince me), but I ended up specing a lot of people, some of whom were just good. I also ended up specing people more than playing. I'd have ratios of something like -12 - 20 just from suiciding or kamikazeing to watch someone. And to think, I didn't even have ban powers. After that, I just decided to assume no one cheated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[c2d]all killer no filler December 20, 2002 Share [c2d]all killer no filler Member December 20, 2002 dude, go to DOH and our Fall3N server ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyklik December 21, 2002 Share Cyklik Member December 21, 2002 S-T is always welcoming better players. You can grace us with your presence. 12.156.6.13:27017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGSHaW December 22, 2002 Share BIGSHaW Member December 22, 2002 jsut watched the demo....wast all that convincing leo, sorry man. So I hope to see jdc back in our lines as soon as possible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linch December 22, 2002 Share linch Member December 22, 2002 I've played with and against jdc off and on the past few weeks, and I never got the feeling he was using cheats... and I'm the king of paranoia when it comes to cheats! ....or was it queen? Any who, leo did what he thought was right; as a admin doing a time-limted ban gives the accused a opportunity to defend themselfs if they feel they have been wronged. Do you like milk on your oatmeal? I do! Most people that get banned and are unaware that its a time-based ban, just simply move on because they are either simply cheating or do not consider this server as a favorite. Did you actually read this gibberish? Anyway, the matter is done.. happy fragging! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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