AGP question

[Laz.e.rus]

Can I run a agp 8x board in a 4x slot? How much would it hurt?

 

I have a GF4 ti4600, agp 4x

I WANT to get a new mobo, pci express, new ram, and higher end gf card.

What I CAN get...a new card

Its pointless to blow the big bucks on the top end cards because I cant afford the mobo upgrade right now. So Im thinking fx 5700, maybe a 6200. Dunno.

But, How big a hit am I REALLY gonna take using a 4x slot? Will it even work without probs?

 

Thank You!!!!

[appalachian_fox]

Common experience is that an 8x card will work in a 4x slot, but at a reduced capacity. Older slots (1x/2x) tend to have little keys in them, as do some of the 4x/8x slots, but the 1/2x looks backwards from the 4/8x Every 8x card I've seen (which honestly there haven't been that many) have two slots in the connector so it will fit into either a 1/2x or 4/8x adapter. I'm not sure exactly why they lump this way, and that's probably an overgeneralization, but here's a set of good graphics of the different AGP "versions":

 

http://www.ertyu.org/~steven_nikkel/agpcompatibility.html

 

So, provided that the card fits in the motherboard, it should work. I would check your mobo manufacturer and the vid card manufacturer to see if there are any known troubles first. Every mixed-mode card combination I've ever used has worked well enough for me.

[Norguard]

The Fox is sly and cunning... ...and absolutely right.

 

Most cards now are AGP8x... ...but as far as graphic throughput, DooM3 on its highest settings barely uses more than AGP4x throughput. We haven't made a card that actually utilizes the bandwidth.

 

A 6200 would fit perfectly into your setup... ...but I wouldn't recommend it.

 

You've got a real GeForce 4, not the MX, so why take a step down to MX levels? You honestly might end up hurting your performance, seeing as the 6200 is a weaker card, but will run all of the new, more demanding shader effects. And under no means should you get a 6200 with "TurboCache". That's a death warrant, right there. All of the RAM eating of an on-board videocard, with all of the suck included, as well.

 

Honestly, Laz, I'd recommend a 6600 if you can afford it. It will work, you'll see a huge performance increase, and when you do upgrade your system in a year or more, (unless you upgrade to PCI-e) you'll have a good card in it, already.

 

Don't go overboard, of course. Buy within your budget. It doesn't make sense to me to put a glorified GeForce2MX in your PC. No matter how much you spend on your processor upgrade in a year or two, or even more, you still have a crappy videocard that needs to be replaced.

 

Good rule of thumb when purchasing hardware, PC or otherwise: work out your budget, and set a cap. Research the products at the highest point of that pricerange, and pick the one that offers you the best features right now, and won't be instantly dwarfed by your next purchase/upgrade. Judging by the fact that your motherboard is 4x only, I'm assuming your next upgrade will be moBo/CPU/RAM, be it in a month, a year or more, it is going to be your largest bottleneck, after the video card.

 

Good luck on your purchase, Laz, and if you've got any geek questions left, just give a hollar. I'm sure there are some other, equally nerdy people here.

[Preacher]

For a cheap PCI Express card, I'ld get this one

 

For a high performance AGP Card on a budget I'ld get this one

 

Newegg refurbs come with the full manufacturer warranty but only have a doa warranty through Newegg. I have bought 6 video cards that were refurbs and all have been problem free. I have also bought CPUs, hard drives and motherboards and only had one bad hard drive and they sent me a new one with no problems. I highly recomment them.

[Ice_Berge_00]

www.newegg.com is by far the bets place I've found any comp parts. Esp. vid cards. YOu can often find an OEM one with the CD's and everything for dirt cheap!

 

Also you can view the specs on the cards to see exactly what they support. They will say right on them. Ususlaly 4x/8x is what they'll have. SOme are 1-8 I believe.

[appalachian_fox]

Sweet! I was right! Thanks Norguard!

[Laz.e.rus]

when I bought this mobo, 8x was talked about but not quite out yet. the 4600 was the brand new king of the hill. So, I think my mobo would be new enough to take the current 8x cards. Its an Intel D845PESV model.

Basically, I jsut want a new card with 256 of the faster Vid ram thats out now...Geforce only. THx for the input guys!

[Cujo]

don't get anything higher than say a 9800pro/xt or a 6600gt. it's just not worth it. since you play source i'd say a 9800pro/xt is the best deal, if you can find one, just because hl2 loves ati. oh and get a 256mb one if you like aa and af. ideally get a used card to save more money.

 

my dilema is that i traded my 9800pro and cash for an x800pro. when it came time to upgrade my other stuff i was stuck with agp cause i paid 600 for my agp card and i wouldn't be able to sell it for anywhere close to that. now i've got nf3 socket 754 which isn't bad but i'd rather have nf4 socket 939.

 

*edit*

 

psh i had this tab open but hadn't read it yet and now i see you've replied before i did.

 

why geforce? unless you're a doom3 fan there's no point... farcry, unreal, hl2 all better with ati...

 

if geforce is a must than just stay with what you've got. only thing it's really lacking is dx9 but that just means it runs everything in dx8.1 codepath. only nvidia better than that with dx9 is the 6600gt and is it worth it if you still have an old intel board with 845 chipset and agp4x?

 

*edit2* just did a bit of research and you won't notice much of a difference in upgrading your vid card when you're still on an intel cpu of less than 3ghz and only 533fsb with ddr333 or less ram. just stick with what you have til you can afford everything new.

Edited April 1, 2005 by [rAv]Cujo

[Laz.e.rus]

I have a hard time buying that doubling the ram of my vid card with faster video DDR and the new technology for it wouldnt make much of a difference.

So, whats the REAL story with ati now-adays? A couple years ago, they were great cards once you got around driver problems, AA probs, etc. Theyve always been about as fast or faster than Nvidia, but had other probs.

Sidenote... I DO NOT want the ole ati vs Nvidia explosion here! Im just asking cujo or maybe ONE other response about ati

 

O, jsut for the record

Alienware-2.8 Ghz, 1 gig ddr333, audigy 1 (gamer),

Net: 360 up, 3.3 Mbit down

[Clueless]

I love them, I have an X800XT PE and it's great, ive had no issues, drivers or otherwise. I have 3 Ati cards, the customer service keeps me coming back more than anything, they take care of problems quick, and are very helpful on the phone if you ever have issues.

 

I would spend the extra cash and get the X800 over a 9800, there isnt that much of a cash difference if you shop around, and the performance boost is worth it. Maybe even read into an X700 series, I think they are supposed to be in between the 9800 and 800 series performance wise.

[Norguard]

I've got an ATI RADEON 9600XT in my PC right now. It's a solid card, and I would recommend it, or the 9800XT in a heartbeat, over any of the nVidia FX series (5000 - 5950). The FX series was poorly executed, and you end up sacrificing quality (16-bit pixel shaders, or DX8.1 shaders... ...or both) just to keep pace with the RADEON 9XXX models.

 

But if you're talking current generation, my recommendation still lies with nVidia here. You won't be affording an x800XT PE, I take it. Truthfully, the 5 extra fps that ATI can boast isn't really all that hot, when you think about it, in-game. What nVidia can offer you, however, with the 6xxx generation (minus the attrocious 6200), is future-proofing, with PixelShader 3.0 and full OpenGL 2.0 compliance.

 

Neither may mean a whole lot, right now, but in a few months, they will be the big thing. I've seen Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory look good, and I've seen it look AMAZING. The effects that programmers are making with PS 3.0 are only getting prettier, and to be able to run it at all, you either need an nVidia 6XXX series card, or you need to wait for the ATI x900s.

 

Oh, and a 2.8 with 1GB DDR333 isn't bad at all, I must say. You'll see an improvement with a motherboard upgrade, but even if that's all you could afford, I think that just the motherboard itself is your bottleneck, there.

[Laz.e.rus]

Thx much guys! One of the things I love about communities like this one: lots of people with diff skills/exp can help each other out. To find all this out would have taken days of surfing I really dont feel like doing you know?

 

OK...getting it narrowed down here...

getting Vid card first, MoBo later ( followed by ram then cpu)

so, vid: reasonable ($200 cap?) GF 6 series...256 MB

any picks for that one? hehe Does it exist in that price range yet?

I have to go agp for now (which will stink later), but the other option is to go MoBo first, and that puts my vid card too far into future.

[Cujo]

your mobo/cpu/ram is currently your biggest bottleneck when running source/hl2. this game is VERY cpu intensive. you don't have to believe me but i'm giving you an honest answer. get an a64 3200+ and you'll notice a bigger difference than just getting an x800 and throwing it in agp 4x with your setup.

 

if you're next upgrade still involves agp then by all means go for a high end agp card. otherwise look at saving a bit more money and doing a complete upgrade.

 

http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2330&p=2

 

those benchs are with a top of the line vid card. notice going from a 2.8ghz (already much better than yours cause it is running at 800fsb with pc3200 ram and a faster chipset) to a a64 4000+ yields a 30fps increase.

 

again you don't have to believe me but it's your loss.

[Laz.e.rus]

Its not that I dont believe it will improve. I simply cant buy a mobo, cpu, 1-1.5 gigs of new ram AND a vid right now. Thats not "a little bit more" for a recently divorced guy. Thats a months rent and a car payment

What Im saying is that an xtra 128 mb of vid ram and the new gpus would make a larger difference right now than anything else I can afford, and if I purchase correctly, it will still be usable when I upgrade the rest. The only thing that bugs me right now is I cant use a pcixpress, which is what I would want later. That would mean the new video card i buy now wouldnt work when I DO buy the rest.....a dilemma

[Norguard]

Sorry for not hitting this up sooner, Laz. I pulled a CS all-nighter, when I promised I'd look at it, as soon as I logged off... ...of course, as soon as I logged off, I packed my stuff, and 10 minutes later, I was on a two day mission trip to a church plant on the Buffalo/Niagara Falls skirts. Just got home, and after nearly 72 hours of no sleep, I'm a little wired... ...and again, dumb for not doing what I said I'd do.

 

You do have a little bit of a dilemma, but put it this way:

 

The specs of this PC are not bad. Because of the way your last purchase went (with wise component choices) you can purchase an upper-middleclass videocard now, with, say a $250CAD-$400CAD (I'm way to strung out to even find the US market equivalent) budget (street-worth). I'm thinking either a 256MB RADEON 9800XT (no nVidia 5XXX FX cards in this price point... ...they don't run CS: Source at a comperable resolution, or detail setting), a 6600GT, a 6800 or 6800GT(at the very top of said budget... ...the last two are definitely decadent overkill for you, but still worth mentioning in that pricerange). The ATI side of the 6XXX series would be the x700 series and a vanilla x800 card. Again, any higher than that, and you're straying into the absurd. Stay away from the x300 like it has Ebolic Lrepro-Bubonia.

 

Now, back to the components in your PC: As I said, they're really good for a set that was purchased a few years ago. The prime of its time, or a strong contender, just after they were replaced. All but for your motherboard. Really, if your next upgrade was just a motherboard, your CPU and RAM could carry over. Then, at an again, later date, you could upgrade your processor to a 3.4, or whatever's near the top shelf, and your RAM could stay. Every single one of those upgrades would be compatible with one another, and you'd see a performance increase with each. You don't have to - just a budget-minded solution, for those who don't mind waiting months on end between components. You're in the best possible position for upgrading at this point. All-in-one if you can afford it, or one at a time over the next year or so, if you can't. Cuj is right on the money with the CPU intensity of the game. Moreso than any other, because of the fully-realized Havok 1.5 physics engine in it, but it also has almost 0% bearing on resolution/detail settings (other than model detail) - just an initial boost of your baseline FPS while running the game.

 

By the time the last one's done, you'll almost have two PCs.

 

By that time, though, they'll be on to dual-core processes, and Intel will finally have a 64-bit counterpart to the Athlon64 consumer chips. That's the time that you will want to move to PCI-e. At this point there really isn't a benefit for you, and I don't actually know enough about the Intel PCI-e boards to guarantee compatibility with all of your current parts, and future proofing against new ones. I can tell you that you will definitely need yet another new board for dual-core (which will be necessary for 4GHz+ CPU operation in its current state, and for 64-bit Intel CPUs), if you want to upgrade your processor above your 2.8GHz after that point. (2nd half of '05 or first half of '06, I believe).

 

All signs in the current market/research trends point to the first option, (AGP 8x card now, AGP 8x Pentium 4 board later, CPU at the same time, or a little after, if you want.) and then a brand new system once the market settles into dual-core/64-bit processing, DDR2 RAM, PCI-e cards and SATA 300... ...perhaps even Microsoft Longhorn.

Edited April 4, 2005 by Norguard

[Laz.e.rus]

thanks again guys! Wow..go to bed nor.

so, Im thinkin now...6600 gt and then a new mobo. ram and cpu later

hehehe...of course I will then have to start a "mobo question" thread so Youve Been Warned hehe

 

edit: hmm having trouble finding a 6600gt with 256. ALso, only opengl 2.0 i can find is 6800 ultra. The rest are 1.5. Is this a prob?

Also, the 6600 has 256 mb, but the gt does not. However the gt is more expensive. What is the Non-gt missing that it has more ram but costs less?

 

This one is a biggy:very important...

 

Even with the AGP link above, I cant tell if the new card will even work with my mobo now. Here is what the descrip of my mobo says:

"What add-in AGP cards can be used?

The D845PESV AGP socket can accept universal AGP cards that comply with the AGP 2.0 specification. The D845PESV can use 1X / 2X / 4X card(s) operating at 1.5V.

Note: Legacy 3.3V AGP cards are not supported. "

Edited April 4, 2005 by Laz.e.rus

[Norguard]

I'll get back to the rest of the questions after work tomorrow, because they require research and some on-line windowshopping, but the reason the mobo is described like that is because it was made with a 4x maximum. So obviously, the manual and all doccumentation is going to say that's what it supports. It won't run an 8x at 8x, so it won't say it's compatible.

 

My mobo says that it's compatible with processors up to Athlon 2600+, because that's the highest one that was available, during that revision of the board. I could fit a Socket A Athlon 3800+ in there, and it would run just fine. In fact, I've got the board of choice for non-A64 Athlons. It's just been around a little while, now.

 

Check card stats and almost 100% will be 4x/8x, if not 2x/4x/8x, just like almost all 400MHz DDR RAM will run a clock of 266/333/400 without problem.

[Guest zerodamage]

I should have chimed in earlier here. The PixelShader 3.0 that Nvidia is claiming rights to right now is unimportant in the current scheme of things. Their cards can do it and that's about it. Current generation hardware ATI and Nvidia can not run anything at the PS 3.0 level effectively or with decent fps. It is nothing more than a marketing ploy. The few effects that are being used in the new Nvidia hardware can also be done in ATI hardware. Take a look at the Farcry demo released a couple of months back. That thing doens't run too well on Nvidia hardware. The few effects that Nvidia's cards can do are only performance boosting effects and this usually gets the performance up to that of ATI. To run the full fledged PS 3.0 effects that Nvidia is claiming their card can do would pretty much cripple performance to nothing and the same goes for ATi hardware which is why it wasn't done this time around.

 

Now I am not bashing Nvidia here, their new Vid cards are light years beyond the FX 5800-5950 series which were utter crap. They are still behind in performance in regards to ATI and Image Quality. About the only game Nvidia has an advantage over ATI is Doom3 and who is playing that now?

 

Nvidia has fallen way behind in driver quality in comparison to ATI the last year or so. Nvidia has a ways to go to get their drivers back up to the high quality that they were known for.

 

That being said, you really can't go wrong with either company right now if you are buying a current generation card as in a Geforce 6600 or ATI X600 and above. I would go as far as to say X700 or above is what you would want and for Nvidia you would want I think a regular 6800 or above though the 6600 card isnt bad at all. I would not buy anything new under these cards as you would be spending money on older technology which would be pointless. Either keep what you can until you can afford better or do it part by part.

 

Ati right now has the PCI express x800 card for around 300 and the X700 card around 180 or so. I just built a system with an x700 PCI express card and this thing played HL2 like a dream. I also built one with a 6800 OC in it and it played HL2 quite well also.

 

As for your CPU, Intel has fallen behind in regards to pricing/gaming performance in comparison to AMD. You can easily pick up a Athlon 64 2800 or 3000 and mobo for cheap, even PCI express for the same price as the 754 pin. (You would want 939 pin now days).

 

Intel has been slipping in gaming performance and anything under 3.2 ghz and 800 fsb is under performing.

 

Laz, PM me and I may be able to hook you up.

[shep48]

SLI

[Cujo]

agree 100% with norguard. get a 9800pro/xt if you absolutely must have 256mb of ram. 6600/gt does not come with 256mb.

 

either way you're screwed for later upgrade without pcie. your current cpu/ram will not work in most if any mobos with pcie as they all support socket 775 not 478 like what you have.

 

the cards zd mentioned are all pcie though it sounds like he's pushing a whole new system.

 

btw, 256mb is only important if you use a lot of aa and af. that's all it's good for really.

[Guest zerodamage]

agree 100% with norguard.  get a 9800pro/xt if you absolutely must have 256mb of ram.  6600/gt does not come with 256mb.

 

either way you're screwed for later upgrade without pcie.  your current cpu/ram will not work in most if any mobos with pcie as they all support socket 775 not 478 like what you have.

 

the cards zd mentioned are all pcie though it sounds like he's pushing a whole new system.

 

btw, 256mb is only important if you use a lot of aa and af.  that's all it's good for really.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I am discouraging buying a brand new 9800 pro/xt card right now. Just are not worth the money. Better spent on something newer that will last a lot longer.

[Laz.e.rus]

Thx guys. I found the diff in gt w/128 vs 6600 raw w/256 cheaper. The 6600 raw with more ram is ddr, the gt is ddr3. HOWEVER, the ddr3 ONLY comes on the pcie model lol. I think cards are being built to screw ME personally at this point.

So, it would appear that since I cannot afford the rest just yet, I may go wth the 6600 raw with 256. I cant get the ddr3 model anyway as I dont have a pcie mobo. If I were to get the mobo first, I cant get a cpu/ram to put in it.

getting the 6600 raw, followed by a 8x mobo later, at THAT point I can totally change to amd64/whatever I want.

If we're talking a year or so from now, I dont think I will have a prob finding a A64 mobo with 8x agp. OR, maybe at that point I will have enuff $ to jsut get the 8xxxx series pcie cards both will have by then and a pcie mobo

 

Only question left, and the most important for all of this~ will the 6600 raw work in agp4x slot?

 

My mobo Intel D845PESV

http://www.intel.com/support/motherboards/...b/cs-008879.htm

 

AGP link from above:

http://www.ertyu.org/~steven_nikkel/agpcompatibility.html

 

Nvidia 6600 raw:

http://www.nvidia.com/page/geforce_6600.html

 

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc....-121-196&depa=1

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc....-135-164&depa=1

 

If anyone can answr THAT question....Thank You!!!!!!!!

 

And thx again for everything else guys.

[Ice_Berge_00]

It sounds like you may have already picked your card, but I wanted to answer your question about the diff between 6800 and 6800gt.

 

The 6800 only has a 12 pipline GPU while the 6800gt has a 16 pipeline GPU. The 16 is definatley better from everything I've been told and have researched.

 

My friend got the BFG 6800gt OC (256 DDR3, 256 bit). It works great for him. Make sure you get a card that's 256bit memory though. I would recommend against 128bit unless it won't have much impact with your current setup, I believe the prices aren't that much diff. The 256 Mem isn't that big a deal right now with games, except for Doom3. HL2 certainly doesn't seem effected by it much.

 

My general impression right now is that HL2 and the source engine runs better with ATI cards, just fyi.

 

 

 

Zero or Nor plz correct me if I am off with any of this.

 

 

I'd also recommend on going with OEM cards if you find a cheap one. Unless the retail comes packaged with somethign you want. They're always cheaper than the retail boxed card and you still get the cd's and everything. ALso the 9800 pro cards can easily be overclocked to an XT.

 

I've always had good experience with Saphire cards, my old 9000 pro did pretty good with CS:S and after I upgraded my CPU from a P4 1.5GHz to a AMD 3200+ 64bit the performance went up a decent amount.

 

Here's a couple cards I found with a quick 5 minute search on newegg:

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc....-102-477&depa=1

 

Here's a 256 MB version, there's also a retail of it for 7 bucks more

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc....-102-515&depa=1

 

a 128 MB and 128bit GF-6600gt

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc....-125-168&depa=1

 

and a 128 MB and 256 bit GF-6600gt

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc....-119-148&depa=1

[Norguard]

Zero, I'd half agree to what you've said. ATI's boasting higher fps-speeds with current games, using current engines. That's all well and good, but nVidia's cards, while slightly behind (we're seriously talking about 5-20 fps in a real-world situation) all have future-compatible components. The future arrived this past week with Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory - the first game specifically utilizing PS3.0 applets. And the point behind PS engines is to make more complex programs run more efficiently, so yes, a shader effect written in 3.0 could also be done in 2.0, or maybe even 1.4, but it takes less code, and will handle it more efficiently in 3.0, using less card resources to get the same, or a greater effect.

 

nVidia card owners will, from this point, up until the next card generation, be treated to effects that ATI users won't be able to see, or will only see a watered-down version at the same, or a greater performance cost, in most A-list titles (unless ATI pulls a similar marketing stunt to nVidia's "The Way It's Meant to be Played", last generation, so they could tread water with ATI).

 

Whole-heartedly agree on the AMD thing, though. By the time you're ready for PCI-e, I'd be pouncing on a Socket 939 AMD64, dual-core rig, instead of an Intel setup... ...but that's a thread for another time.

 

Ice, I'm about half and half with you, as well. If a 256MB AGP 8x GT card can't be found, there's another dilemma, as Laz will benefit from both 256MB of RAM and 16 shader pipelines, as opposed to 12. In Source, at high rez (1280x1024+, max detail, DX9 using PS2.0) it won't fill a 256MB card, it's more the speed at which things get done... ...but it will fill 128MB RAM. So wich is better, big and slow or slim and spry? Well, I don't know. That's a real-world test and it will vary, per map and per app, and per people on-screen at one time.

 

Again, ATI may currently claim the highest fps in CS:S, but it's such an incredibly miniscule margin that it really doesn't matter. What I can say is that to me, personally, a 6600 or a 6800GT, so I could run the game at max detail, 1024 or 1280, using DX9 and PS2.0, would be worth it, compared to medium detail, 800 or 1024, using DX8.0 and PS1.1.

 

I went and bought a 9600XT last generation, because ATI won that battle, with their future-looking features (such as fully realized PS2.0 support), and attention to detail, while nVidia did little but boost speeds, to brag about framerates at product launch... If I were to upgrade now, I'd buy an nVidia card... ...or two, for the exact opposite reason.

 

And yes, Laz, the 6600 should definitely run in a 4x slot.

Edited April 5, 2005 by Norguard

[Wolfsblood]

Just to add my 2 1/2¢, I have an ATI 9600xt 128mb Saphire card running in my old comp, that my wife uses constantly to play SWG, and it looks killer doing it.

 

I also have a Leadtek px6600gt extreme 128mb running in this pc. This is the one I use to play CS:S, HL2, etc. Here's the reason I got this card. SLi. nVidia is the only chip maker currently supporting using 2 viddy cards to render the images faster, and theoretically, better.

 

I spent about 5 months researching components; mobo's, viddy cards, ram, procs, etc. What I found was that at this time, this year, etc. nVidia was doing more with their chipsets than ATI. I read more benchmarks than you can shake a stick at. Almost all of my initial choices changed during the process, except for the proc type. All I knew for sure was that I wanted an Athlon64 socket 939. Beyond that was up in the air.

 

I know you prolly cannot afford a pcie mobo, (heck I prolly couldn't afford the system I eventually built, but I built it over a few months, so that spread the hit out a bit.) but pcie is the graphic slot of the future. Think pci viddy cards vs. agp...

 

Just be sure that the system you build today is the one you want to be playing on next month.

 

Hope I didn't confuse the issue, good luck with the computer upgrade.