Teamstacking discussion.

[Lux Eterna]

Hello,

Let me start off by saying I am not trying to vilinize any one player or group of players. I want to address the problem of teamstacking on the GC servers. The admin of this organization, through their wise and rational policies, have elemeniated many of the negative social and ethical elements which one often encounters while participating in any online gaming venture. That being said, I trust that they will continue to explore all options when dealing with any problem, especially one as sensitive and complex as this one.

 

I. An outline of the problem.

 

I think that at one point in all of our CS lives we have participated willingly in a teamstack. It is where many powerful players play on the same side and the result is domination of the opposing team. This is the typical type of teamstack.

 

The second type of teamstack occurs when powerful players recognize a one-sided match and too many of them try to compensate by switching. What happens here is just as bad, as the team that was getting dominated begins to dominate and continues to do so until the score is even or in many cases beyond that point. (Remember, the object (imho) is to achieve balanced play as quickly as possible and maintain that throught the match) Although this result is caused by good will, it often results in a frusterating experience for both teams during a map. The reason for this is that the medium skilled and lower skilled players suffer the worst from any type of teamstacking.

 

II. Identifying the Problem.

 

I think one of the mistakes we make in looking for a teamstack is putting too much weight on the team (CT-T) scores. Team score is a good indicator up until people start switching teams or joining the game halfway into a map. For instance, (see example 1 below) If the cts start out the map strong and go 3-0, then the two strongest ct playres switch. You join the game and see that the score is 3-0 and you join the Ts, even though the majority of the talent is on that team.

 

 

Anyone looking at the team score would think the Cts were winning but in fact the Ts have 5 players with rations above 1:1 (3 that are well above) while the Cts only have 2 above the 1:1 ratio. Therefore, my first proposed axiom that the only indication of team strength (in the moment) is an analysis of individual player scores.

 

What happened in this screenshot is exactly as I described above in senario 2. 38||innom and Col.Sanders started out strong on the CT side and when the CTs went 4 and 0 they switched so that they could help out the weaker team. In doing so, they turned the tides completly and stacked in the opposite direction.

 

I think about it like this. When comparing the strength of the teams. Each noob is worth one strength point, Average skilled players are worth 3, Pubmasters are worth 5, and Cal-M regs like 38||innom are worth 7. This is not hard and fast because everyone has their bad days. So combine that system of points with an analysis of scores and you will always have an accurat feeling for which side needs help.

 

My second axiom is that the most skilled players should not be the ones switching from team to team. If the strength comparison is CT18-T24 and one of those 7 point monsters switches sides it becomes CT25-T14. Its even worse in the opposite direction. Teams should be balanced by moving the middle skilled players with positive ratios. When someone who is 20-5 or something switches teams, its a huge loss to one team and a huge gain to the other. UNLESS, there are 4 or 5 people on one team with 20-5 ratios, (see example 2)

 

 

The same thing happened in this SS, even though the T side is winning 8-6, the CT side is VASTLY stacked because some of the stronger players on T went CT to help out and in doing so unbalanced the teams even worse than they were before.

 

III. Possible Solutions.

 

I know the GC admin and regular members as well are encouraged to always play the strong side and to help balance the teams when they recognize an imbalance but I don't think these techniques are being intelligently employed.

 

Here are a few possible solutions:

A. Admin, instead of having the most skilled player switch, should be moving middle players over to the weaker team until it is balanced. Skilled players should be more careful about trying to help out the other team as they might not really be helping achieve balance.

 

B. Download some of the server software that looks at every aspect of gameplay and automoves people in order to balance teams. If any of you have ever played on a server with this plugin you can comment on how it works.

 

C. Disable the team-join and team-switch options. The only options should be auto, and you cannot switch teams in the middle. If the auto process results in a stacked team. An admin can move people around, OR the blowout round limit should be adjusted to 5 or 7. The blowout limit ensures that a stacked team can only last a few rounds and they the cards get shuffled again.

 

I am in favor of options C, cause I HATE people who come in and join the stronger team.

 

Remember, I am not trying to accuse people or yell at admins or anything like that.

The people in the screenshots are just examples and not actual people. I do not deny that I have done some teamstcking and if if you have a ss of me teamstacking feel free to post it and make me look like a hypocrite.

 

Thanks for reading my rant, I should have been doing laundry but I did this.

 

Yours,

Lux

[shep48]

ok lux that was alot typing, there is a program that ranks players and team balances more aggresively. its called Erics team balancer. This program also has friends options. There has been problems with it also. We are trying to keep the server lean and mean. The quality of server goes down as you add more junk.

 

As to the team switching, if its 6-0 and I switch to be the QB, and i bring it back to even, thats about the most fun I can have in this game, prbly not going to switchback im trying to be rocky and rambo all in 1.

[Timmay!!!]

I completely agree after this last week of team stacking being horrible. I am getting tired of having to always tell a team that is 8-0 to send one of the top 3 over to try to even things out a little.

 

Lux I do not agree with one thing that you said. It was when you said it shouldn't be one of the top players to switch. If a team is 8-0 because they are stacked it is only fair that if a very skilled player comes over to the losing team and they go 8-0. The teams were stacked in the beginning and they were on the winning team, this just makes things fair to the team that was losing horribly to begin with.

 

I think the regs on this server are the ones that should even things out after a 4 or 5 round deficite. I am getting sick of always being t on storm because everyone refuses to join it and once the score is 8-0 or so the top 3 players refuse to switch because they are doing good. I am sick of it. Fewer admins are also on anymore and many things slide through the cracks of the system now

[Laz.e.rus]

Quick reply: I HATE the auto only thing and would rather entertain ANY option other than that one to solve the problem. It was tried before and was absolutely horrible.

You couldnt play with friends ( my freind and old quasi-reg doesnt play here anymore because he quit when we started it), you couldnt UNstack, you couldnt join a game for admin-fishing to get an admin on the mic for another server, and I believe you couldnt even spectate anyone.

 

I hated it!! I was danced a happy=-jig when it was removed before.

[stutters]

i could be wrong, but i think the mani player management would allow us to override auto joins, and UNstack teams.

 

to me, it's as much fun playing with friends as it is against them.

 

if you hadn't said auto join was already tried and didn't work too well, i would be in favor of auto joins.

[Fatty]

You know, I'll be completely honest....I didn't even read your essay because you posted TWO screenshots, both where the "stacked" teams were behind. Find me some screenshots that actually benefit the discussion and I'll read it.

[Fatty]

I think the regs on this server are the ones that should even things out after a 4 or 5 round deficite.  I am getting sick of always being t on storm because everyone refuses to join it and once the score is 8-0 or so the top 3 players refuse to switch because they are doing good.  I am sick of it.  Fewer admins are also on anymore and many things slide through the cracks of the system now

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

1) It'll never get worse than 10-0, so hang in there

 

2) Switching teams all the times is rediculous. What's the point of doing your best and trying to win if your reward is to be told you're doing a bad thing by winning so much????

 

3) If you're so sick of it, don't play when admins aren't around. Tons of people compliment us on how well adminned our server is. So which is it? Fewer admins or a well adminined server?

 

Me? I'm tired of all the whining that I read about team-stacking.

[Lunk]

You know what kills me about this whole post.

 

That second screen shot was from this morning. And Sanders and myself were the only decent players on CT. And NOT ONE single person complained about stacked teams. Even when the T's went up 7-0(yes that was score). Then St3d switched over to CT and we won a round. Next thing I know we lost a player and immon moved over. Then all of a sudden we won a couple more rounds. That's when the team stacking complaints started popping up. And guess where they came from:THAT'S RIGHT....... it came from the T's because they lost a couple of rounds. Get over it.

[Fatty]

It honestly never fails......probably one of the most predicatable phenomenon that frustrate me in this game, and Lunk is hitting on it.

 

Example:

 

Aztec...CT's pizwning....1-0, 2,3,4,5-0.....6-0! (I won't go to 7 because it's a delicate issue right now in the GC living room).....

 

But T's save! And they decide to organize.

 

6-1

6-2

6-3, now all the CTs are broke cause each round after they lost they bought out....

 

6-4.....a couple murmers about teams

 

6-5....Terrorist have won LESS than the CTs, more murmers about teams

 

6-6 NOW WE HAVE A TIE GAME! Did the CTs save? No, they were busy wondering if they should stay or go...they are unorganized because their first 6 wins came so easy.

 

6-7 T's pull ahead...now 4 CTs have dropped and it's getting ugly. T's are unable to enjoy the fruits of their labor.

 

6-8 now if someone on the T side doesn't switch over after having bonded with the team and done well, someone is gonna take a screenshot...because now it's 12 Terrorists vs. 9 CTs because 6 cts have already bailed cause it wasn't as fun as when they were destroying the T's.....and now they're replaced by a few people that just joined....so 1/3 of their team is 0-0 or 0-1 wondering what they're doing in a daycare with all the whining going on.

 

(the above is just an example, but actually based on a real experience that plays itself out ALL the time)

 

What's the lesson? Your average CS player loves playing and winning. Your average CS player is also a poor loser.

[k-wix]

I think it's frikken awesome that one of the largest issues on the server might be 'teams being stacked' .. I think its a great testament to how well run the servers really are, if thats our biggest worry then you guys must be doing a whole lot right.

 

But about the issue? i think its minor at-best.. even if they are stacked, you play your best each and every round. With the 10 round limit, it'll all work out shortly. Realize that there are players who just wont listen and wont work with you to win.

 

Also realize there really, at this point in time, is no great solution to the problem. That's just how it is. People like picking sides, im one of them, i <3 my famas.

 

But still, im nit-picking at this point, people will pipe up about it, it will happen, the players will then switch if they want to.. The problem will always go away soon. I think the key thing to remember is to try your best even when the odds are impossibly stacked against you.

[Lux Eterna]

you posted TWO screenshots, both where the "stacked" teams were behind.  Find me some screenshots that actually benefit the discussion and I'll read it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Please don't get defensive. I did not mean it as a criticism of your current policies. I am a community member here and I have just as much interest in making play better as anyone because I want all to enjoy playing. I am trying to open discussion into a "hot topic" and examine how the current fix can cause as many problems as the problem itself.

I agree that 10 rounds is not long to wait, that there is no perfect solution, and I don't need an admin on to make my experience worthwhile, I often try to balance the teams myself no matter who is on.

I FULLY agree with Fatty that "2) Switching teams all the times is rediculous." Because I think the goal is for rounds to be competetive, not one sided. When too many people switch teams in order to help out the losing team, it just creates this see-saw effect where there is never any balance.

 

 

If what I posted was a whine, then I would love to see an example of an intelligently worded opening discussion.

 

My first point was that you cannot judge any sort of balance from the team scores. So a team that is "behind" could be all people who joined or switched in the last 2 rounds. There can be a lot of turnover and so the only way to judge balance is by indiviual scores. So I purposely took Screenshots where strong players had switched to the team that was "behind" only to overpower the "losing" team.

 

My point to all; Don't worry about the team score if the rounds have been close, only worry when it is a clear domination, and even in that case be careful not to go too for towards pumping up the weaker team with power players. Try to avoid the see-saw effect.

 

Sorry if I was not clear enough in my first post.

 

-lux

[simkiller]

It honestly never fails......probably one of the most predicatable phenomenon that frustrate me in this game, and Lunk is hitting on it.

 

Example:

 

Aztec...CT's pizwning....1-0, 2,3,4,5-0.....6-0! (I won't go to 7 because it's a delicate issue right now in the GC living room).....

 

But T's save!  And they decide to organize.

 

6-1

6-2

6-3, now all the CTs are broke cause each round after they lost they bought out....

 

6-4.....a couple murmers about teams

 

6-5....Terrorist have won LESS than the CTs, more murmers about teams

 

6-6 NOW WE HAVE A TIE GAME!  Did the CTs save?  No, they were busy wondering if they should stay or go...they are unorganized because their first 6 wins came so easy.

 

6-7 T's pull ahead...now 4 CTs have dropped and it's getting ugly.  T's are unable to enjoy the fruits of their labor.

 

6-8 now if someone on the T side doesn't switch over after having bonded with the team and done well, someone is gonna take a screenshot...because now it's 12 Terrorists vs. 9 CTs because 6 cts have already bailed cause it wasn't as fun as when they were destroying the T's.....and now they're replaced by a few people that just joined....so 1/3 of their team is 0-0 or 0-1 wondering what they're doing in a daycare with all the whining going on.

 

(the above is just an example, but actually based on a real experience that plays itself out ALL the time)

 

What's the lesson?  Your average CS player loves playing and winning.  Your average CS player is also a poor loser.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

More often than not, the reason for the comeback at that stage is because 1 or 2 elite ct players switched to t after the 6th round. Making the teams unbalanced yet again. Point being? It only takes possibly 1 guy to switch to make the teams unbalanced depending on that persons skill. There really is no way to control this on a pub so I say get better at your defensive (camping) CS:S strategies so you're less apt to get discouraged about teams. Then take the situation at hand as a challenge to overcome. Most of the time yer gonna lose. But when you do win a round or two.....oh how sweet it is.

[Fatty]

Actually, in any of the situations I"m speaking of, it's NOT due to the switching, and the IRONY comes so clear when it's the leaders of the first-dominating team that start the whining.

 

Lux, asking for screenshots of stacking isn't being defensive, it's asking for screenshots of stacking. You wrote a fine essay, and sure, stacking exists...you should have just offered something that would back up your story.

 

Also, when I say "whine" try not to personalize it, especially when I actually quoted Timmay and was speaking directly to him, if not just broadcasting to all. Read again.

[stutters]

i like fatty's angle on the t's coming back from a 6-0 deficit. it's amazing how far a little organization (plus one pinch determination) on the mic can go.

 

hit the headset & mic thread and start organizing.

[Laz.e.rus]

I guess I have a different attitude about it than I used to.

 

Now, when its hopelessly stacked, or you get stuck on one of 'those' teams that has NO idea what/where/why or they jsut dont care...well you're gonna lose. So, heres what I do:

 

Take as many with you as you can!!! hehehe This is when I really love to grab the p90, rush the dust tunnels, and create general havok for the opposing team before you get trounced. And it makes those reallly special "7 HS in the hall/ killed their rush" times even sweeter!!

[simkiller]

Actually, in any of the situations I"m speaking of, it's NOT due to the switching, and the IRONY comes so clear when it's the leaders of the first-dominating team that start the whining.

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmm. Well I have yet to see that situation.

[stutters]

i'm telling you, the worst players organized are better than the best single player (most times).

 

shortdogg worked up some csls kids, they came west, and t's came back from a 7-1 defecit to have the timelimit reached with cts 9, ts 8. i went 6-10, but started chatter on the mics. everyone else starts taking it sersiously, and bam, csls packs their bags and goes back to chicago.

 

i can't wait for this 4v4 tourney.

[G1_plattipus]

As much as i have played lately i have seen a few team stacks going on, and i have been on the winning and losing sides of both. sometimes i get angry, throw my headphones, break something, and quit....but 5 minutes later i calm down and return. the best thing about this server is the first to 10 rule. if it is stacked so badly things will be better in 10 rounds (which i have seen take like 10 minutes). sure you may be 1 and 10 and want to throw a rock through your monitor, but it will all work out shorly.

 

sometimes i get so frustrated when i join the server late and everyone has money and an AWP, while i'm holding a glock in my hand. you just have to stick it out for a few rounds and a new map...and all will work out.

 

 

 

so here is the solution. when teams are stacked you should get mad, almost break things, take a deep breath, and wait until a new map comes around. then YOU can be on the winning side of a some serious domination.

[Guest Sh0rtD0gg]

Ya The T comeback on Dust was classic, props to John for gettin it together for us.

[VooDooPC]

This was earlier today. It also didn't help that the "Do0per" guy is -2 becuase he would get switched to the Ts every round and switch back to the CTs killing himself.

 

I had another funny teamstacking screen shot but i lost it becuase i formated.

[igloo]

5-0

An elite player switches

5-5

 

This seems fair to me, it's not a perfect world, both teams get to have fun.

 

I try to make it a habit to switch at 5-(0-1), but usually after doing this a few times, I just fold, autojoin and keep on trucking.

 

Shodan and Lunk are usually on during the hours I play at night, so I get the benefit of having an admin around to call a skunk when the teams are utterly impossible to fix. I swear I've been on teams where 7/10 had negative scores.

 

Anyways, if all else fails, I get cheesy (some call it defensive :]). Camping corners with deagles going for headshots, running around the map taking pot shots, etc.

[Cold Killer}==>]

i have seen on some servers where they are pretty serious about team stacking , there soulution was to swap some of the people who where top of 1 team , and send them to the loosing team. Also they have regular team check ups to see if teams are balenced. and can autamaticlly swap players. might help if came up with something like this in the servers

[mongoloido]

I think my biggest concern isn't with a single teamstack, but with a stack that lasts several maps. When 3-4 guys stay on the same team map in and map out annihilating the competition, it just seems unfun. People don't have to hit tab every round to see if they need to switch, but they should certainly not try to stack either. Play hard and have fun, but try to remember there is a whole server trying to have fun.

[G1_plattipus]

well after enough of lunk's witching about me and G1_joe playing on the same team every map i will eliminate the problem by no longer playing here.

 

we always play together, and we are always the first people in during a new map (due to our fast computers and close location). so we join the team. it may start off that there are 5 CT's and 2 T's, but within SECONDS its evened out. but lunk always manages to throw a hissy fit. so i will eliminate the problem, you will never see me and JOE together at the same time, because you won't ever see me in your server again.

 

lunk is lame.

[Lunk]

well after enough of lunk's witching about me and G1_joe playing on the same team every map i will eliminate the problem by no longer playing here.

 

we always play together, and we are always the first people in during a new map (due to our fast computers and close location).  so we join the team.  it may start off that there are 5 CT's and 2 T's, but within SECONDS its evened out.  but lunk always manages to throw a hissy fit.  so i will eliminate the problem, you will never see me and JOE together at the same time, because you won't ever see me in your server again.

 

lunk is lame.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

CYA

 

BTW. Today was the first time I've said anything to these guys about this. Guess, plattipus is a bit thinned skin.

 

So go on, take your marbles and go home. If you think that was witching. Boy are you in for a suprise.