Pro-Zan Post

[Belphagor]

Now- I noticed the post about having Zan banned for not going for objectives... but I've been on quite a bit (second only to Zan lately) and even though he camps quite a bit and is usually always on the easy side, he does go for objectives when possible. Just because he doesn't rush in like a fool and get instantly HS (like me), doesn't mean he isn't making some effort. He himself makes an additional objective for his opponents- many times I've heard 'Zan down'- and have said it myself, giving the 'all clear' (or more clear) so the hard camper is not lurking any longer.

 

So:

if you are going to ban him for always picking the easy side- you have MANY others to add to that list.

if you are going to ban him for lesser objective effort- there are quite a few players that just see this as Team DM (go off killing w/o planting the bomb)

if you are going to ban him for poor team play- (baiting, soloplay, etc)- it's a PuG, I've seen far worse than Zan here, he at least will radio (need backup) when he has the bomb down (but lots of people just listen to their music while they Team DM so they miss radio ques) is that better team play?

 

Annoying? sure- bannable? no. I'd rather have Zan on my team than not... but since I'm in Mac10 mode, I've been up against him more lately.

 

He can move- I've even seen him rush! (and I have witnesses)- although it is not a common event.

 

Anyway- lets leave the bans to those that curse/abuse/cheat(even just a little).

 

Bel

Edited March 25, 2008 by Belphagor

[stutters]

Now- I noticed the post about having Zan banned for not going for objectives...

zan isn't banned, that's just mohawk having a bad day.

[LoveForPriscillaChan]

without taking sides to the banning of zan argument...

 

Zan does not complete objectives; here's what he does (suppose de map):

 

1. Zan camps

2. entire CT teams dies but him

3. "Bomb has been planted!"

4. Zan makes an effort to get to an entrance/exit of a bombsite

5. Zan pretends to try to take the bombsite, but in reality, is just camping the exit in hopes of catching a T running away from the bombsite and killing him

6. Zan runs away

7. Bomb explodes

 

 

so in the end, he camps the exits of a bombsite and picks up 1+ kills that way, which is cheap; one night it was me, akuma #twc, and zan on CT team; both akuma and I were dead and the T's plant the bomb. i predicted to akuma that he would just camp the exit and not make a real effort to go for the bomb and i was right

 

but then like belphagor said, if you ban him for lack of teamwork, you have to ban a lot of people for lack of teamwork; namely people who stack the easy side of the map (or the one with all the really good players), people who don't rush when the entire team is planning on rushing (i'm talking to people who spawn closest to bombsite and is the lead when running towards a bombsite but at the last minute, before entering the bombsite, you stop and camp and watch your team go in first and take all the bullets and then you go in last...)

 

 

 

i guess for some people, K:D ratio is the most important thing, and not the +1 win for your team; its a PUG, we can't change it, but it would be nice if we hold ourselves to a higher standard

[Warpig]

without taking sides to the banning of zan argument...

 

Zan does not complete objectives; here's what he does (suppose de map):

 

1. Zan camps

2. entire CT teams dies but him

3. "Bomb has been planted!"

4. Zan makes an effort to get to an entrance/exit of a bombsite

5. Zan pretends to try to take the bombsite, but in reality, is just camping the exit in hopes of catching a T running away from the bombsite and killing him

6. Zan runs away

7. Bomb explodes

 

 

so in the end, he camps the exits of a bombsite and picks up 1+ kills that way, which is cheap; one night it was me, akuma #twc, and zan on CT team; both akuma and I were dead and the T's plant the bomb. i predicted to akuma that he would just camp the exit and not make a real effort to go for the bomb and i was right

 

but then like belphagor said, if you ban him for lack of teamwork, you have to ban a lot of people for lack of teamwork; namely people who stack the easy side of the map (or the one with all the really good players), people who don't rush when the entire team is planning on rushing (i'm talking to people who spawn closest to bombsite and is the lead when running towards a bombsite but at the last minute, before entering the bombsite, you stop and camp and watch your team go in first and take all the bullets and then you go in last...)

 

 

 

i guess for some people, K:D ratio is the most important thing, and not the +1 win for your team; its a PUG, we can't change it, but it would be nice if we hold ourselves to a higher standard

 

who cares if he camps......we always know where hes at...we all have our spots.....and alot of the time hes on the camping side, so he can camp....geez everybody gives Zan a hard time.....just let the guy have fun...

[mohawk]

not really, i'm sick of watching him try to find bomb sites for 30 seconds everytime he is the last one alive, which happens a lot.

 

It's a valid request for a ban.. and I'm not sure why it isn't being addressed. Numerous admins have had to warn him repeatedly.. he has been beaconed, time bombed, etc.. yet the trend continues.

[Belphagor]

'but then like belphagor said, if you ban him for lack of teamwork, you have to ban a lot of people for lack of teamwork; namely people who stack the easy side of the map (or the one with all the really good players), people who don't rush when the entire team is planning on rushing (i'm talking to people who spawn closest to bombsite and is the lead when running towards a bombsite but at the last minute, before entering the bombsite, you stop and camp and watch your team go in first and take all the bullets and then you go in last...)'

 

I usually die first since I usually end up first in line on a rush- even when I spawned mid pack- and I am not the only person with a knife out. I have on occasion caught the CT's first flash in the face because I am out the B tunnels so fast on Cbbl. Then a while (5-10 seconds) later the rest of the team trickles out to die, or win- hopefully win. Someone has to be first...

 

People who like to get kills (which I like, but don't need)- will wait for their team to soften up the opponents, then pick them off for an easy kill. That is why many of us wish there was stats based on health dmg- not just the finishing kill. Just like it is bad when you do 6-9 dmg to a teammate that was mostly dead and get the entire kill. I've had rounds where I've done 15-60 dmg to 5-6 people, but not get one kill- and someone comes in later and cleans up. Most of the time it is not enough for the team win, but just enough for them to rack up a few more kills before then drop. Had they been at my side while I am wounding the other team- we'd probably be doing better. And I do not ever call out KS on anyone, instead its usually thank you! they wouldve likely got me.

 

A round that I end up helping the team instead of hindering is one that I feel I've done well. I want people to want me on their team because I am helpful & communicate (live ghosting)- not because I can kill half of the other team solo. (which I cannot unless the planets are aligned just right)

 

I like objectives over kills- often it gets me killed because I think I can sneak in a difuse/plant while everyone else is fighting nearby... sometimes it works, others times not. I suppose I could play safe, and stay mid pack and fall back a bit- but not enough to get flanked. But that safe style is not fun, probably why I play T 66% of the time cause it's not really safe.

 

My off days- days when I am 'off,' I am REALLY off- 3/12 on a map is common on days like that. Those are the days my head hitbox on my charmodel is the size of 4 players, and any random spray kills me. I often get the- 'oh I wasn't even shooting at you' on those days when I get HS non-stop. I could have my crosshairs on someone (not moving) and the only thing inside the 4 pixels is a helmet- burst-burst from 20 ft away and nothing.

Other days, when I'm not even trying I'll kill 2-3 on the first clip of my mac10. pbbt pbbt pbbt- Not sure how I am near 50% headshots with that- since when I am playing it seems all I get arm arm/chest hits. ahh source, what a mystery.

 

Team play being a rule would be some rule for a server, cause many different actions could be considered not team friendly.

 

Bel

[mohawk]

in the time it took you to write that i played 4 rounds on nuke.. zan was the last one alive 2/4 rounds and didn't try to defuse

[mohawk]

seems to be doing better now

[LoveForPriscillaChan]

without taking sides to the banning of zan argument...

 

Zan does not complete objectives; here's what he does (suppose de map):

 

1. Zan camps

2. entire CT teams dies but him

3. "Bomb has been planted!"

4. Zan makes an effort to get to an entrance/exit of a bombsite

5. Zan pretends to try to take the bombsite, but in reality, is just camping the exit in hopes of catching a T running away from the bombsite and killing him

6. Zan runs away

7. Bomb explodes

 

 

so in the end, he camps the exits of a bombsite and picks up 1+ kills that way, which is cheap; one night it was me, akuma #twc, and zan on CT team; both akuma and I were dead and the T's plant the bomb. i predicted to akuma that he would just camp the exit and not make a real effort to go for the bomb and i was right

 

but then like belphagor said, if you ban him for lack of teamwork, you have to ban a lot of people for lack of teamwork; namely people who stack the easy side of the map (or the one with all the really good players), people who don't rush when the entire team is planning on rushing (i'm talking to people who spawn closest to bombsite and is the lead when running towards a bombsite but at the last minute, before entering the bombsite, you stop and camp and watch your team go in first and take all the bullets and then you go in last...)

 

 

 

i guess for some people, K:D ratio is the most important thing, and not the +1 win for your team; its a PUG, we can't change it, but it would be nice if we hold ourselves to a higher standard

 

who cares if he camps......we always know where hes at...we all have our spots.....and alot of the time hes on the camping side, so he can camp....geez everybody gives Zan a hard time.....just let the guy have fun...

 

its not the camping that's the problem; its him consistently not bothering to go for objectives, only camping the bomb exits and hoping to pick the terrorists running away from the bomb

 

again, i bring up this mod where the entire CT team gets slayed if the bomb explodes or the entire T team gets slayed if they the bomb gets defused or if the map runs out of time and the bomb isnt planted; once people realize that if their team doesn't win, they get a +death and a -kill, they'll start playing more team-oriented

[Warpig]

People who like to get kills (which I like, but don't need)- will wait for their team to soften up the opponents, then pick them off for an easy kill. That is why many of us wish there was stats based on health dmg- not just the finishing kill. Just like it is bad when you do 6-9 dmg to a teammate that was mostly dead and get the entire kill. I've had rounds where I've done 15-60 dmg to 5-6 people, but not get one kill- and someone comes in later and cleans up.

 

you talking about Shaft

[Demoner]

zan has the lack of completely objectives. like undies said when he is the last one alive on ct he often always waits too long to get to a site for backup or the chance to defuse a bomb because he is slow at getting to the site. i've seen him do it numerious times where he would sit outside a bombsite picking t's off and not make an effort to go and defuse sometimes that is valid when its 5+ vs 1 but other times his teammates go in and he sits back and waits. I agree with you Bel in that you can't ban him for lack of team play because there are others who fit in the same profile. The reason would be lack of completing objective for its a rare occasion when he does.

[mohawk]

played with him for a couple hours last night and he seemed to be doing better.. so hopefully he got the point and it's over

[shoot]

People who like to get kills (which I like, but don't need)- will wait for their team to soften up the opponents, then pick them off for an easy kill. That is why many of us wish there was stats based on health dmg- not just the finishing kill. Just like it is bad when you do 6-9 dmg to a teammate that was mostly dead and get the entire kill. I've had rounds where I've done 15-60 dmg to 5-6 people, but not get one kill- and someone comes in later and cleans up.

 

you talking about Shaft

 

 

No... Not Shaftiel?

 

He does the cleaning up if he survives his rush at the beginning of the round. He almost always p90 rushes at dust2 b tunnel(whether ct or t) and I always rush there too and he kills me 8 out of 10 times. Once he survives that, he goes on to score like 3 more (clean up time). I hate him... Please ban him for rushing.

 

It's so true about what Belphagor said... I usually end up doing the same and rush, give like 80~90dmg and die and let others finish them off. This is the nature of the game though. Some rush all the time and some wait. People have different strategies and it is what it is.

 

Not going for the objective is a different matter completely and most of us agree here.

 

If Zan got the message, all is well.

 

Now let me go to the b tunnel and kill Shaftiel.

[Demoner]

played with him for a couple hours last night and he seemed to be doing better.. so hopefully he got the point and it's over

well i hope your right

[LoveForPriscillaChan]

It's so true about what Belphagor said... I usually end up doing the same and rush, give like 80~90dmg and die and let others finish them off. This is the nature of the game though. Some rush all the time and some wait. People have different strategies and it is what it is.

 

that's not a different strategy; that's intentionally baiting your entire team; when the entire team's consensus is to rush, that means your team is relying on putting as many people in the bombsite in the shortest amount of time possible; it annoys me to endless lengths when I am 4th in line about to enter the bombsite, and then the 3 people in front of me magically needs to step off to the side and tie their shoelaces and i end up being first to rush in; i die, and those 3 players come up from behind and take the sloppy seconds; i mean, in this case, from now on, i'm calling for my team to rush and i'll be the last one in so i too can boost my K/D ratio (the only exception to this is if you have the bomb and should not go in first)

[Fatty]

If the bullets were real we'd all play like Zan.

[lousiest]

First off, Retro is a pub. Expecting people to follow your call for a rush is already a folly in itself. Then blaming them for stopping and getting you killed? Besides, this thread is about Zan, a pro-Zan one at that, not about whining.

[Fatty]

Expecting people to follow your call for a rush is already a folly in itself.

 

I disagree completely. People follow my call in a rush, under a set of stairs, to whatever end. Give me a map with a cliff and I'll motivate an entire team off the edge.

[Bewildered]

Expecting people to follow your call for a rush is already a folly in itself.

 

I disagree completely. People follow my call in a rush, under a set of stairs, to whatever end. Give me a map with a cliff and I'll motivate an entire team off the edge.

 

Lets try it! Windex .... code it up!!!!!11!!

[LoveForPriscillaChan]

First off, Retro is a pub. Expecting people to follow your call for a rush is already a folly in itself. Then blaming them for stopping and getting you killed? Besides, this thread is about Zan, a pro-Zan one at that, not about whining.

 

that's nonsense; when i first played here (many years ago, when the server was still Mmmm and not gc), one of the pop-up messages on the server was "Teamwork is expected" or something like that; yes i understand this is a pub but i would expect people who play here regularly to be better than the average lone-gunner and help out the team; its called TEAMwork for a reason; if appropriate, i would expect to have a +1 to my death so my team would win, i would also expect the same from everybody else

 

if not, i'm just gonna camp spawn EVERY single round. i mean, its a pub right? this is expected right? how does that sound? if every single T just camps on a de map and every single CT camps on cs map

[lousiest]

Camping is not the same as not rushing. There are other ways to achieve the objective and help the team than blindly following rushes. If adding +1 to your death is your way of helping the team, than so be it, but do not attribute your death to others. If I feel a rush is most appropriate, I'll rush. But if I feel I can better serve the team by taking a different route, I'll do that, regardless of who called the rush.

[Brew]

Expecting people to follow your call for a rush is already a folly in itself.

 

I disagree completely. People follow my call in a rush, under a set of stairs, to whatever end. Give me a map with a cliff and I'll motivate an entire team off the edge.

you'd need CS installed first to do that fatty...

[LoveForPriscillaChan]

i didn't say camping is not fine but when your entire team is rushing and you bait your entire team...that's not fine; if everybody just does what they want, then there is no such thing as teamwork; what's the point of calling out strats? everybody might as well do as they please: 3 people go this route, 3 people go another route, another 3 people go yet another route, and the bomb camps at T spawn. if you feel that some other way is better, voice your opinion via chat or text

 

in a really extreme case then, zan camping and not going for objective can be argued as beneficial to the team: he's saving his gun for the next round and if he is able to pick off the awper running away from the explosion, that team will have one less awp next round; whoa!!!!! that's is so beneifical to the team!!!!...at the expense of a loss on your team

 

by the way, i never did attribute my death to others; i just said i dont like it when certain people continously over and over baits the entire team and picks up sloppy seconds; attributing my death to others is when somebody is blocking me when i am awping and i get shot at and couldnt take cover

[Demoner]

Expecting people to follow your call for a rush is already a folly in itself.

 

I disagree completely. People follow my call in a rush, under a set of stairs, to whatever end. Give me a map with a cliff and I'll motivate an entire team off the edge.

you'd need CS installed first to do that fatty...

you need to play more brew, fatty was on just last night

 

and good points undies

[lousiest]

it annoys me to endless lengths when I am 4th in line about to enter the bombsite, and then the 3 people in front of me magically needs to step off to the side and tie their shoelaces and i end up being first to rush in; i die, and those 3 players come up from behind and take the sloppy seconds; i mean, in this case, from now on, i'm calling for my team to rush and i'll be the last one in

 

i would expect people who play here regularly to be better than the average lone-gunner and help out the team; its called TEAMwork for a reason; if appropriate, i would expect to have a +1 to my death so my team would win, i would also expect the same from everybody else

 

if not, i'm just gonna camp spawn EVERY single round. i mean, its a pub right? this is expected right? how does that sound? if every single T just camps on a de map and every single CT camps on cs map

 

What you're doing is giving yourself an excuse to camp or calling a rush and baiting everyone else. I have nothing to say about the way people are playing currently on Retro. If you think people are baiting, are unhappy about it and want to vent your frustrations, my initial point is that this is not the thread to be doing it.

 

Edit: If anyone's annoyed, please let me know and I'll take this offline with Undies. My apologies too.

Edited March 26, 2008 by lousiest