Sin....

[jane]

This is an older quote from Watchtower, and this topic is mostly directed at watchtower....

 

""No one is free of sin". True statement? I say false. "

this can be found in "Questions for Chirstians" page5, said Nov 25th

 

 

Was wondering if you could elaborate on that one for me Watchtower? I guess its pretty explanitory, but I'd like to know why you think that is a incorrect statement. Let me know!

 

Jane

[Watchtower]

Ok, because some humans or animals likewise cannot make conscious decisions due to mental capacity or development.. Ie: vegetative states, isolated peoples that live very strict lives outside of christianity. Simple people like Amish but are not amish.. SOme just don't have much opportunity to sin. Some will have the opportunity and just lead very pure lives(monks etc). I do believe it is possible and a person has gone an entire lifetime without a "sin". Why could this not be? This is one of my favorite topics b.t.w..

[dwEEziL]

The "original sin" is the one passed down from Adam. It is what makes us an "blemished sacrifice" and therefore unfit to cover our own transgressions. This is whay the sacrifice of Christ was needed.

[Watchtower]

well that's where we differ.. You're not going to convince me that many innocent and loving people are going to burn for eternity.

 

Lets talk about what Is sin and what Should be sin.. How about littering and making the planet uninhabitable for future civilizations or other crimes against the earth? This has been on my mind lately.. THis is why I'm more likely to subscribe to philosophies that state that what ever you put into the cosmos(love, compassion, hate, whatever) ends up coming back to you or affecting you some other way.. Like karma if you must. Not something that tells me to do as you say or burn in hell.. Too controlling of a plan for me to believe that a God designed it and not some greedy power hungry people or king. Or you can elaborate on the current convo.. i don't think it can go much further tho..

[jane]

Im with Dweez of course as far as original sin goes Watch, but I can understand where you're coming from. Its a hard question, one that I can't give a good answer to, "why could good, loving people burn in hell". I guess my best answer is that we all sin in not choosing to serve God. What if we love, protect the earth, and treat others with grace? I guess thats where I have to believe that God is better than anything we can ever do. Hard stuff. Makes me wonder a lot. But I'm gonna ask God when I get there, cuz I have a feeling (unless me and a whole lotta other people are wrong) this question is truly out of our hands.

 

 

Other types of sin, or just sin in general.

 

Sin: to miss the mark, to stray from the path, to err

 

Is littering a sin? I suppose it is. So would speeding be(got my second ticket in 7 months last week). If you can find a reason for it not going to the benefit of others, or to the bettering of God's name, than I think its a sin.

 

Karma-style

 

interesting and very appealing. About all I can say about it. I guess its all the good stuff a bout Christianity, without the responsibility that comes with knowing a God. Think about it this way. If we were truly just supposed to give it our best and treat everyone fairly, who decides what is best and good and fair. Can I say it? Or does some force(yes, Jedi type) tell us what is good and bad. Is there a middle ground or is there only black and white issues? Its a philosophy that is widely accepted, most likely for its nice side. What makes it different form Chirstianity? It takes away the pain of loss and sin, and allows a scapegoat of bad luck, or bad timeing to take the blame for cancer and AIDS and youths dieing in LA from guns fights. Who really knows? When you look at it from my angle, Watch, it seems like everything in the world that is ugly and bad is a result of sin and sinful nature in humans. When I look at it from your point of view, its seems like I am a good guys trying to make it a world of bad luck and bad karma. What made it like that?

 

 

If you ever read books, or have time to peruse a few on my position, try these:

 

The Case for Faith, by Lee Strobel

 

The Case for Christ, by Lee Strobel

 

Mere Christianity, by C.S. Lewis

 

Great books that allow reason and logic to enter the realm of faith and point out why Christians dont have it all wrong and why God isnt evil for allowing sin and death and pain and cancer and all the things that make this world so ugly sometimes.

 

jane

[auggybendoggy]

I've heard nothing but good stuff about "mere christianity".

 

Aug

[Watchtower]

Well Speeding wouldn't be a sin in my book cause you could look at the fact that if you are going faster, you are therefore getting off the highway quicker allowing more room for the rest of the world.. That's betterment in my book..

 

"Karma-style

 

interesting and very appealing. About all I can say about it. I guess its all the good stuff a bout Christianity, without the responsibility that comes with knowing a God."

They know a God.. What do you mean? Is Christianity the only religion that believes there is aa God that created and or watches over? no. And the thing that tells us what is good or bad is Obviously innate or uncivilized cultures would just be a mess.. Fact is they can get along just fine. I attribute it to the golden rule.. One generally will do onto other as .. you know the rest.. Until someone comes along and does something to spite or harm them. Then it's most likely an eye for an eye.. How do animals exist in a society with no Gods, no religion, noone telling them right from wrong? THey do whats best for their tribes/herds/packs. And proliferation. continuing their genes..

[Playaa]

Watch I agree that what is right and good is something that is built into us...but you can't really use animals to compare that.

if I saw a woman I liked and she was yours...and we were lions...I'd kill you...is that right for humans? Is it right for animals? My answer is no and yes.

so I do think that humans innately know what is right because God put it in our hearts and minds and made us that way.

 

 

funny side note...I didn't even know I knew the word "innately" until I had finished typing that whole sentence...then I had to go on dictionary.com to make sure it actually was a word...

weird

[Watchtower]

Well as far as the lions go, they don't mate for life link alot of animals do, but there is no killing like you mentioned.. Sometimes battles for the chance to mate, but don't humans do that sometimes too? yes. if we were both male lions and you wanted the female, you could as she could have up to 5 parters during her estrus.. May the best sperm win!

"Biologists have observed birds to be the most monogamous animals in the world--much more so than humans. Over ninety percent of bird species pair up exclusively to mate and rear chicks together because both mother and father are equally able to provide food for the chicks (4)." So birds are more faithfull than most humans even.. Unless God has installed that into animals as well, I fear you are incorrect.

[jane]

Sometimes battles for the chance to mate, but don't humans do that sometimes too?  yes.

does that mean I can fight with you over Trouble? sorry, i know that got bad a while ago in game... ill take it back if it offends... lol though.

 

 

anyways.

 

I believe that Christianity is the only faith that goes out of its way to let everyone know that there is only one way to God's prescence. I may be wrong but I think that the Islam faith is a bit more wobbly on this than Christianity. Anyways, My point is similar to Playaa's. That we have the knowledge of truth and right/wrong from God instilling it in us.

 

Mating

 

LOL! Ok, point taken Watch. Birds are more faithful than even humans. At the same time, does that mean that they know what is right and wrong? Why is it right for them to stay with the same mate? Does it fit with a birds religion? I dont think so. Why is it right to stay with one woman? Becasue we know it is, in ourhearts. God placed that knowledge there and Adam and Eve also installed the memory of the knowledge of good and evil in our hearts forever when they ate the apple.

 

 

IM rambling now.

[Watchtower]

"Why is it right to stay with one woman? Becasue we know it is, in ourhearts."

Not always the case.. A lot of times people will get married as they feel in their hearts it's the thing to do, only to have a year or two figure out they can't stand each other.. How is marriage and divorce looked at in the bible? Does this prove anything about wrong and right? This is more about feelings of attraction and love.. Wrong/right is murder type stuff... black and white.. Marraige Used to be.. Now it's getting very grey.. Or is it?

[Jiffy]

original sin makes no sense to me in any way. A new born baby, the most purist thing to live, it knows no hate, only love, has sinned by being born against its knowledge or will? Why then must it pay for someone elses sin long ago? hmm, maybe missing church as a kid leaves this one unanswered for me.

[Playaa]

the baby itself hasn't sinned Jiff...it's just got the sin of all mankind on it just like we all do. In actuallity we're kinda talking about two different sins...on one side we have "sin" as in an act of doing something wrong and on the other side we have "Origional Sin" which just means that because Adam and Eve did what they did, we will not live the perfect life on earth we were meant to.

 

As for marriage...look to eastern cultures for some insight...they have arranged marriages still...and those people LEARN to love each other. (and it truly is love unlike what seems to be a majority of American couples...we don't really understand love...love is Corinthians 13) Our society has warped quite a few good things and marriage is just one of them.

[Watchtower]

I think we have an idea of what Love actually is. We just confuse Love with Lust.. And many of those arranged marriages are unhealthy.. I don't believe you can "learn" to love like that.. Sure some get lucky and it works.. And when you say "our society", isn't it made up of a largely "Christian" philosophy? I don't believe they actually believe.. The thought of burning in hell forever would make you never do anything, period! Oh but wait, you just ask for forgiveness and it's all ok.. That's right..

<some sarcasm employed above>

[Playaa]

I don't believe you can "learn" to love like that..

and I believe you can...there are examples to support both of us...so as always...we end up as every argument does...with absolutely no way to prove it.

it's so REFRESHING!

 

*edit*

did you read Corithians 13?

in a sense it's a different type of love than what we talk about every day...it's referred to as Agape (the Greek word) Love...and it is without a doubt...perfect love...

Edited January 13, 2004 by Playaa/Pselus

[Watchtower]

Well I think that you can be with someone and tolerate them, or actually "fall in love" and have total crazy feelings for someone in arranged marraiges. Obviously you can't expect all of them to work out. Learning is coming from a set of protocols like 1+1 = 2. That can be taught and learned. Love can be taught this way? That's what I'm saying.. From a mans point of view it's easy.. Wash my floors, cook me dinner, give me sex and I'll love you.. Those poor women. In most eastern cultures, women are subordinate and do not have the same rights.. So what might look like love, could be fear. But anyhow, i see what you're saying, I just saw a problem with how u worded it..

[Crowbar]

For some time now I have firmly believed that love is more of a choice, than a feeling. Somewhere in history someone coined the term "fall in love" and it screwed up everything. If I can fall in love with a girl, what's to keep me from falling out of love with her next month? Do we always feel like we love our significant other? In my mind the relationship usually starts with a physical attraction (not always), and, after getting to know the person a bit, there is the "falling in love" part. That's fine, until both partners decide to get serious, such as getting engaged. This is where you have to make a concious choice to love only her. I think most couples skip this most important step. I know that it's been infinatly benificial to me in my scant 8 months of marriage to be able to remember that I've made a thought out choice to love my wife, and even though I may not feel like it at the moment, I know that I've thought this through, and made the choice to fight through any obsticle to make this marriage work. And we've had some fights, and there have been a few times when I've thought about giving up. But I made a choice, that even if there are times when I feel like it was the wrong decision, I'll still love her, and fight to make it work.

 

Back to the topic at hand... well, I'm just going to start a new thread, maybe this will get explained there.

[Word]

I've seen arranged marraiges up close and personal and I agree that they aren't the best idea. However, I still believe that you can make any relationship work if you base it on common morales and beliefs. I attended the wedding of Salla, one of my interpreters, who married his cousin. All he had to do was ask his uncle and she had to be his wife. I kind of felt sorry for her because from what Salla told me they didn't even really know each other, he just had a physical attraction to her. I don't think that it is the best idea in the world, but I think if you try you can make it work. I saw him just last week and he said the marraige was going great, he couldn't stand being at work because he had to be away from her. Granted sometimes marraiges don't work, but that's usually because one spouse or the other turns out to be a jerk, and of course if you can't compromise, you're not going to have a very healthy marraige.

[Watchtower]

Cousins? Whoa.