jane March 1, 2004 Share jane Member March 1, 2004 The point is not how we live our lives, but who we lives them for. If one person decides he is to use a verse here or there for this or that, then I guess, since its in the bible, then you cna go for. But the thing is, and this is what I mean by interpretation, is taking a statement that says something and going against it. Because that is wrong. 1 Corinthians 8:9-10,13 8 But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat. 9 But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. 13 Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble. If we do something(eat drink sleep, smoke) that leads other believers away from the faith or to do wrong, then we are sinning. If we do something that offends, and we continue to do it, we sin. Watchtower, its hard for me to write this down, because I dont like confronting other Christians in view of you. Not because I dont want you to see the faults that man has made in the history of Christianity, but because you might misconstrue them as a fault in the faith, not a fault in man. Man is sinful. We all make wrong/bad decisions and we contradict ourselves. We contradict God everyday, by continueing in this manner. Look through the bible(as I hope you still are). Read the context of the vers we post in these forums. Let us know where we go wrong, since you can have a bit more objective point of view(being not raised and "indoctrinated" in church lore). If any of this, besides our arguements, lead you away form the faith, let us know. I want God to be able to show you the truth, including the fact that we Christians still sin and allow our own minds and ways to determine our paths, not God's way(yes yes Soul, i can see this one coming:The mind of man plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps. Pr. 16:9). jane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soul .gc March 1, 2004 Share soul .gc Member March 1, 2004 My only point Jane is that each person interprets the bible differently. Most do not stray too far but some do. Let's take Capital Punishment. As Puppy stated earlier, he is against it because of the bible, yet I am for it and find justification in the bible to support it. There are many different ways to interpret the meanings of the verses and how we apply those to our everyday lives. The important step, in my opinion, is trying to live by those standards and to live more like Christ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwEEziL March 1, 2004 Share dwEEziL Member March 1, 2004 The rule of thumb for biblical exegesis is to let the scriptures interpret themselves (i.e., use scripture to interpret other parts of scripture). This still leaves it wide open for people to believe one thing while others believe something else, both basing their interpretation on other parts of scripture. Some things, while still fairly important are really things, as believers, we should just look at each other and say, "We disagree but you are my brother in the Lord". Then again there are other things that you and I MUST agree on or I can not in good faith call you brother. There aren't many but they are important, for example, 1) Jesus of Nazareth is the Son of God, 2) He came to earth of His own will free will, being fully God and fully Man, 3) He willfully gave up the use of His Godly powers and lived, through the power of the Holy Spirit, a sinless life on earth, 4) He willfully went to the cross where His unblemished, spilled blood paid the price for my sin (as well as the whole world's) totally and completely, 5) He died and was buried in a tomb but 3 days later rose again in a glorified body (one I will have one day too ), He ascended to Heaven and sits at the right-hand of God where, within his rights to judge us, He instead intercedes for us to God the Father. Yeah, I think that is it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PuppySurprise March 1, 2004 Share PuppySurprise Member March 1, 2004 Ya I hate to be iffy on the whole cap. pun convo, b/c a lot of people out there deserve it and if my child was killed by someone I would want revenge so bad, but I do not feel it is mine to take. I wouldn't mind beating the poop out of someone of castrating them or whatever but I don't feel like housing them for years and years at my expense after they killed my child. I think prisons should be prisons...not hotels. If they get life in prison, make their life hell, but I still don't know about killing them, b/c then I'd be just like them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soul .gc March 1, 2004 Share soul .gc Member March 1, 2004 Agreed Dweez - those are the top. Puppy - I am not saying you should believe in Capital Punishment, just that I find justification in the bible to support my view and agree that it should be dealt out by the government and not the people. Here is a good quote: The following is taken from an article in the book, The Bible Has the Answer, by Henry Morris and Martin Clark, Creation Life Publishers. I’m sure it will help. 3. Question: “Should capital punishment be abolished?â€? Answer: Some duties are thrust upon society, not because they are pleasant, but because they are necessary. Capital punishment is such a duty. It is difficult to imagine anyone enjoying capital punishment; yet that does not mean that it is any less necessary or right. The Christian’s final authority in all matters of faith and practice is not public opinion, but the Bible, God’s Holy Word. Moses governed Israel with a set of God-given laws, the most familiar of which are the Ten Commandments. Certain laws, such as dietary, civil and ceremonial prescriptions were meant for the Hebrew nation during a particular part of its history. Among these civil laws, the death penalty was required for a number of offenses, includingâ€â€in addition to murderâ€â€adultery (Leviticus 20:10), rape (Deuteronomy 22:25-26), kidnapping (Exodus 21:16), cursing one’s parents (Exodus 21:17), witchcraft (Exodus 22:18), teaching false doctrines (Deuteronomy 13:1-10), Sabbath violations (Exodus 35:2), and several others. The Bible, however, shows that capital punishment for murder is of a different order than that prescribed under the civil law that governed Old Testament Israel. Following the worldwide Flood, God gave a covenant to Noah, graciously promising never again to send His judgment as a mammoth flood. This same covenant reconstituted human government and established safeguards against the prevailing human violence which precipitated God’s judgment. Central to these safeguards was the death penalty: “Whoever sheds man’s blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made manâ€? (Genesis 9:6). Prior to the Flood, men who lived by depraved consciences made themselves odious before the thrice-holy God. “Now the earth was corrupt in the sight of God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth. Then God said to Noah, ‘The end of all flesh has come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence because of them; and behold, I am about to destroy them with the earth’â€? (Genesis 6:11-13). No mere coincidence, then, prompted God to institute the death penalty as a restraint on violence. Murder was differentiated in Scripture from different degrees of manslaughter, and to murder was relegated the most severe penalty. God’s commandment required the death penalty because “in the image of God He made manâ€? (Genesis 9:6). A murderer not only took the life of his victim, he also assaulted the divine majesty. Taking animal or vegetable life is in no way comparable to taking human life, for though all creation is His handiwork, only man was created in God’s image (Genesis 1:26-27). Nothing else in God’s creation was vitalized by God’s own breath (Genesis 2:7). No matter how sinful man has deformed God’s image, he still bears some likeness of his Creator (James 3:9; 1 Corinthians 11:7). The death penalty was imposed as a measure of protection for organized society, but purely social considerations fail to give sufficient warrant for the severe punishment. Therefore, God showed the preciousness of human life to be its reflection of His image, and violence against human life constituted rebellion of inestimable magnitude. The argument that capital punishment only adds a second murder to the first reveals an unfortunate lack of discernment between the violent acts of depraved man and the holy justice of the righteous God. Human government is commissioned to be “a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evilâ€? (Romans 13:4). The fact that ignorance and injustice exist in a judicial system is no excuse for abandoning God’s commandment. The death penalty is drastic, but it need not be rash. Extreme care should be taken to ascertain true guilt or innocence. No one was subjected to more injustice than Jesus Christ in His trial and crucifixion. Indicted on false charges, tried by frenzied bigots, sentenced by a cowardly judge, executed in unspeakable crueltyâ€â€what a perfect opportunity to strike out against the whole practice of capital punishment! Yet, God the Son remained quiet. Miscarriages of justice do not warrant abandoning the pursuit of justice. And justice, by God’s standards, includes punitive as well as rehabilitative measures. God requires that the death penalty be applied to murderers (Genesis 9:5). Changes in cultural mood or in legislation do not alter God’s abiding Word. Though the death penalty may at first seem to be “cruel and unusual punishment,â€? the Christian should remember that the God of all mercy entrusted it to human government to prevent a far more destructive and corrupting violence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crowbar March 1, 2004 Share Crowbar Member March 1, 2004 sorry guys, but this is really pathetic. soul, those "proofs" of how the Bible is interpereted differently by different people are just pointless. they have absolutly NOTHING to do with Christianity! The message of the Bible is clear, no question about it, it's there open to anyone with seeing eyes. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" "I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the father but by me." Believe that we have sinned and accept God's gift of salvation. That message has not changed at all from it's inception somewhere around 30 AD. ] The answers to those "issues" in the posts above are clear with a little unbiased scripture reading. Unbiased, meaning take it exactly how the Bible says it. Take the first one about women "obeying" their husbands unquestioningly. You'd have to be a complete idiot to believe that women back then would stand for that. Men and women haven't changed much over the years. Read a little history, yeah, historically men "made" the decisions. Yet not many of them were stupid enough to go playing boss. Decisions where run by the wives if the men planned on living peacefully. Women now have the legal right to be as vocal as they want about their opinions, back then they had the same opinions, only they voiced them privately. Jesus knew this, Paul knew this. That is the way it is supposed to be! Women are not cattle to follow the husband's whip. No house would work this way, and it is stressed many times that a man should be in control of his home. I'm married, I know very well what it means to be "in control" of my home. It is in no way similar to a king and his servant girl. No, to be in control of your house, you must listen to your wife, talk things out, men with children need to be involved with them. You go bossing your wife and kids around and your house will never be "in control." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playaa March 1, 2004 Share Playaa Member March 1, 2004 I'd say 90% of the time "problems" people find in the Bible have only to do with their lack of knowledge or lack of study. take for example the verse where Paul talks about women being quite in church. It's often taken poorly as saying "women aren't smart enough to talk in church, only the men were". if you keep reading Paul specifically says that they should wait til they get home to ask their husband questions...he was specifically addressing a problem at that time in the churches. The women and the men did not sit together as they do in our churches. The women sat on one side of the aisle and the men on the other. (to keep everyone from being distracted and allow them to pay attention) The problem was that some women would whisper across the aisles to their husbands to have them clarify something (remember these people weren't like us in America today...alot more shy and wouldn't just turn to their neighbor and ask)...Paul was specifically saying, keep the questions for later so you don't distract others around you. He wasn't in any way saying "women shouldn't talk in church at all"... and the mistake comes from lack of knowledge or lack of study. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soul .gc March 1, 2004 Share soul .gc Member March 1, 2004 sorry guys, but this is really really pathetic. soul, those "proofs" of how the Bible is interpereted differently by different people are just bullpoop. they have absolutly NOTHING to do with Christianity! Wow. Sure they do. Explain to me then why we have many different christian faiths. If the bible was so crystal clear then there would not be this division. If it was crystal clear then there would be no need for religious scholars. Believe that we have sinned and accept God's gift of salvation. That message has not changed at all from it's inception somewhere around 30 AD. Who said it changed? Not Me. Unbiased, meaning take it exactly how the Bible says it. Take the first one about women "obeying" their husbands unquestioningly. You'd have to be a complete idiot to believe that women back then would stand for that. Isn't this contradictory? If you take the bible literally then why would you have a different belief? That is the way it is supposed to be! Women are not cattle to follow the husband's whip. I never said they were. I said the bible states this and it you want to take it literally, as you say it is meant, then this would be your belief. The answers to those "issues" in the posts above are clear with a little unbiased scripture reading If they are so clear then please enlighten us as to Capital Punishment as an example? Do you let your wife work outside of the home? Titus says there place is in the home. What about divorce and remarriage? The bible is quite clear on this subject. I never once advocated those are my opinions, just the bible can be interpreted differently by different people. You though, want to call my view pathetic and say I am full of bullpoop. Nice....real nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwEEziL March 1, 2004 Share dwEEziL Member March 1, 2004 There are many different "denominations" of Christianity because of semantic arguments mostly dealing with inconsequential issues. Crowbar is right, the basic "lesson" to be learned from the Bible is clear as day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soul .gc March 1, 2004 Share soul .gc Member March 1, 2004 Have I denied that? Not once. I stated that the bible can be interpreted many different ways though. I even agreed with your 5 points earlier. As you stated, there are many different denominations because of different interpretations of the bible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwEEziL March 1, 2004 Share dwEEziL Member March 1, 2004 Easy, I ain't disagreeing with you, just making the statement. You did say that "If the bible was so crystal clear then there would not be this division" which is completely untrue. Look throughout history. People disagree all the time, even when there really is no logical way there can be a disagreement? Why? Emotions, personality conflicts, pride, etc. I think you and Crowbar are arguing different points. I think we all can agree that yes, the message of the Bible is simple, plain, and clear so that even a young child (past age of accountability of course) can understand it. Now the HOW to follow the plan is and always will be debated until we are received up to Christ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower March 10, 2004 Author Share Watchtower Member March 10, 2004 first off, there were other writings about him.secondly you say "besides the Bible" when the Bible is proven time and time again to be historically accurate and there are more ancient copies of the Bible than any other book in history. Can you prove to me that the bible is historically accurate in every sense? I think that's what you are saying here.. What do you base that statement on and why doesn't everyone believe that? I figured I'd dig something up since nothing was really going on in here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jane March 13, 2004 Share jane Member March 13, 2004 watchtower ill send you a copy of "more than a Carpenter" which displays this idea quite clearly, along with a bunch of other question you might have about Jesus' validity. pm me if you wanna get it(its only 128 half pages so it wont take more than about 3 hours for you to tear it apart ) jane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower March 13, 2004 Author Share Watchtower Member March 13, 2004 Actually no need.. I found it online and am reading it now.. When he starts explaining why people don't want to talk about Jesus and says it's because Jesus said he was God, I disagree. It's more about the specific religion. One outside of Christianity sees all of the bad things that goes along with it. People inside see some too, but have these little convenient explainations to cover them up. You can't say the same thing about any other Non Judaic religion. Tell me something controversial coming from the teachings of Buddha or Confucius. Other religions don't take it to the same extreme. Follow me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soul .gc March 14, 2004 Share soul .gc Member March 14, 2004 Maybe you should become a buddhist then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower March 14, 2004 Author Share Watchtower Member March 14, 2004 I've studied.. I don't practice.. i feel most of the time I have the peace of mind and tranquility I need without any outside influence.. And I'm not afraid of the afterlife so I don't see a need to practice any one religion.. I'm still in the discovery stages you might say... I'm glad you get my point tho. Instead of Buddhism or Confucianism I should have said anything but a judeo-christian religion.. And that I most definitely am not.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soul .gc March 14, 2004 Share soul .gc Member March 14, 2004 I didn't get your point really. I was just offering a suggestion since it seems you wish to harp on christians and christianity for the most part. If you have such a serious issue with it then perhaps another is better suited for you. I , personally, have no questions about my faith and am confident in God and his power in my life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jane March 14, 2004 Share jane Member March 14, 2004 Tell me something controversial coming from the teachings of Buddha or Confucius. Other religions don't take it to the same extreme. Follow me? Actually WT, thats kinda MacDowel's point. It isnt that we christians have made this religion so dog-gone extreme, its that Jesus taught it that way. One way(His Way) or the highway. Thats it. Thats what he taught. I wont say that we christians dont ahve our issues. In fact I probably know of more than you do. I dont let them control my thoughts on the faith though. I understnad that once a christian, it doesnt mean I'm perfect, only trying to be. we all are hypocrites and that is the side that the rest of the world usually sees. Its a shame, especially for you WT. You cant seem to get past our inconsistencies. I wish you could, but I also understand that it is extremely hard to look at somthing, claiming to be the truth when the only real example of that claim is constantly turning away from that which it preaches. But jesus never did. And thats why we have faith, not saints. No one is perfect, excepting Jesus. We have forgotten His teachings from day-to-day and live a life that is no longer honoring to Him. judge jesus' validity and truth, not the christian sinners around you. His love will overcome all doubts of yours in the end, if you truly desire to know truth. jane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower March 15, 2004 Author Share Watchtower Member March 15, 2004 "You cant seem to get past our inconsistencies." When I see that Everyone believes something different, how am I supposed to decide what exactly to believe since nothing has been taught to me from an early age.. Think about that for a minute.. If you hadn't been brought up with your belief system. Imagine converting to Islam. Happened upon this link. Possibly offensive(bad word), take it in jest.. http://www.7in1web.com/best/religions.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jane March 15, 2004 Share jane Member March 15, 2004 Let the poop happen to someone else I dont like that, in fact i dont even know what it means.... I know what you're saying WT, about my post. Just read the bible. Itll come out in the end. Whether you agree with Soul that you have to interrprt to understnad, or with me that it takes faith to understand, you'll understand the truth. Faith is not knowing, but still knowing. You know? Its like me saying "I'll be there. I dont know how I'll get there, but I know I will get there." Or saying "God is real. I don't know why He is real, but He is." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower March 15, 2004 Author Share Watchtower Member March 15, 2004 Yeah, I know what faith is.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playaa March 15, 2004 Share Playaa Member March 15, 2004 When I see that Everyone believes something different, how am I supposed to decide what exactly to believe since nothing has been taught to me from an early age.. Think about that for a minute.. If you hadn't been brought up with your belief system. are we talking if Christianity had been presented to me? or if I never heard of it? if I never heard of it of course I wouldn't follow it...but if I had then I would follow it. I've looked at other religions and what you say is a good thing, the idea that they basically don't rock the boat; I look at that as a bad thing. To me the truth isn't something that just goes along with what everyone else says. The truth is above and beyond me and others...it is the truth no matter what we believe. You say you aren't afraid of the afterlife, but the funny thing is that if you're wrong...you not being afraid won't change a thing...(I'm not trying to threaten or scare there, just stating a fact) and if you're right...then my beliefs won't really matter either...I just find that funny really. and no I personally can't prove the Bible's historical accuracy...I used to have a paper I studied in college that showed quite a few good proofs...but I've lost it. as for Christians disagreeing on belief...we disagree on little things...but we ARE bonded by our main belief...and that is the one of Evangelical Christianity, that Christ was the son of God, came to earth as a human/God and died for our sins so that we would be saved in the eyes of his father...that's the belief that holds us together....big deal if I think I need to put 10% of my income in the offering plate and jane thinks you need to put 15% in...jane and I could get along and both know we're Christians with differences like that. Basically an evangelical Christian is one who believes the Christ thing and lives it as well...that's what keeps us together and that's all that REALLY matters in the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jane March 16, 2004 Share jane Member March 16, 2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower March 16, 2004 Author Share Watchtower Member March 16, 2004 "big deal if I think I need to put 10% of my income in the offering plate and jane thinks you need to put 15% in" There are many more differences than that.. I'm taking into account Any judaic religion. They are all based on the same book. Christianity wrote some new books to set themselves apart and make it a little more believable. The differences I'm talking about are Catholcism, Judaism, Mormon, Eastern Orthodox, Pentecostal, 7th day adventists, People that speak in tongues, Baptist, etc.. All coming from the same book but so radically different. And if they really discussed their beliefs, they wouldn't get along very well.. How crazy do you guys think Jehovas Witnesses are? See my point? I guarantee if you put a bunch of everyone in a room, they're not just going to be discussing "The Passion of the Christ". Lol. I've seen it first hand. It has happened here recently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playaa March 16, 2004 Share Playaa Member March 16, 2004 well I can't really speak for those folks and I don't think any of the people you've been debating with can...so not sure what your point is... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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