Mental Disabilities

[Guest UberNewb]

Perhaps in Christianity animals don't have souls and all that, but (correct me if I'm wrong, I know its an eastern religion) in Buddhism, everything has a soul. There's also a system called the caste system. If you live a good life, when you die, you'll be ressurected as a member of a higher caste. If you don't, you will be ressurected as a member of a lower class, or if you can't get any lower, you'll become an animal.

 

So, in some religions, animals do have a soul.

[Playaa]

true true....I forgot about that one

[Watchtower]

Wait a minute! animals dont have feelings?? You must be kidding. How about the elephant that when their offspring or relative die, they hang around mourning them. How about the birds that mate for life? How about the dog that does something bad then sulks around until you figure out what they do?? feelings make you protect your territory. Anger ensues when that is encroached upon. Anger is an emotion. Call it an instinct. If an ape from the same tribe happens accross my land(im an ape), I'm not going to get mad because there is a feeling of unity, togetherness, bonds that are created. There is no threat. Endless hours of hunting, gathering, grooming, playing create some of the same bonds we have as humans. Apes do not marry no, but what is marraige anyhow? A ring to say that you are mine. Some scare tactic involved saying if you dont stay with me or cheat on me your going to hell. We have alot to learn from the animal kingdom. If we dont destroy it all first. Read this article.. halfway through starts about the chimpanzees. The ants are kinda cool, but the chips talk should blow you away.. Social Mores of Ants and Apes If nothing else please read that article..

And being a christian Is too easy.. How many ppl in this country goto church and or consider themselves Christian? How many of those ppl would You actually consider to be "good christians"? Im sure the ratio is low. hence it being to easy. I can goto church and act like I understand and believe eveything they say and consider myself christian. I'll bet that less than 50% of supposed christians actually live by the standards.. i'd actually bet more but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. now talk about Buddhism. there is more than just sayings and ceremonies to sleep through to be a buddhist. Most of those ppl Actually believe.. i dunno. Christianity is becoming more and more of a status symbol here in the US.. It's sad. Me done, must fix computer.. Think about the animals.. They are key.

[Heartless]

my cat has got to have a soul... he's got the biggest attitude.. grrr.....

i hate religion... i think its silly. <-- don't yell at me! its just an opinion

[Playaa]

with the animal thing...it's one of those unending arguments....there will be things that can be said to be feelings and said to be instinct and the only way to truely tell will be to get inside their heads...

 

I havent' had a chance to read the article (don't have the time right now) but I will

 

and as to Christianity being a status symbol....I agree with you entirely...and I have insane amounts of anger towards those ppl...(though I will admit some of them do it because they were "raised" that way)

but just because those ppl say they are Christians doesn't make it true....to the same effect that if I went around telling ppl I was a Buddhist it wouldn't be true. ppl that understand Buddhism would know I wasn't a true Buddhist while outsiders would see me and believe and then I could do things to give true Buddhists a bad name. That is what has happened with Christianity in america....so many ppl say they are Christian yet truely aren't and they do things that give the rest of us a bad name....is that our fault? No. Is it the fault of the ones who don't know the difference? No. It's the fault of those "pretenders" so to speak...........................................................................

.....and I've lost my train on thought..................................

[Playaa]

and Heartless....I understand that's your opinion....but why keep throwing it in with nothing else to add to the discussion?.....

I truely am just wondering because I know that if I threw my opinions into conversations with nothing else to say except what I thought then I'd go the way of "the mack" in your mind (in fact I may be already)

[Watchtower]

qWell thats kinda what I'm saying with the buddhism stuff.. not many ppl(if any) go around saying they are if they really aren't. You may not see the point in that.. I guess thats why i'm saying Christianity is too easy.. Which isn't necessarily bad.. My friend and i had a discussion sparked from this thread and he made a good point. People have to have faith.. When one loses faith, they basically give up. People need to believe in something and feel worth or being a part of something. Without out that ppl can crumble. Church is probably a necessity for a good many people. That's a good thing. But we can also sit here and point out bad things that can result of an extreme faith. For a perfect plan, wouldn't those bad parts be eliminated or at least be controllable? As far as an unending arguments, i believe research has brought it to and end long ago. Some ppl are still holding onto their opinions just as they do everything else until it's blatantly obvious to them. Even then.. In essence, by studying the animals in their natural environment over many years even decades, obvious personality and social traits occurr. And variate between climates, regions, even social groupings.. Wide variations. That article i posted is pretty informative if not sum up what I'm talking about..

[Playaa]

As far as an unending arguments, i believe research has brought it to and end long ago

I find this statement to be very comical....because if research had brought it to an end it would be over...

there are as many things that make what you say true as their are that make what I say true....

I'm going to make a statement that I've made in the past and ppl won't quite listen to it.

EVERYTHING we believe in this life is based on Faith.

 

now I know that ppl out there will disagree with me because they see faith as something dealing with a religion....but think about it....if you believe in Evolution....you have the FAITH that the scientists who tell you it's true aren't lying to you or that they truely know what I'm talking about.

I believe in Creation...that is also based on my faith of ppl...

 

so why is it that you can tell me my faith is based in the wrong place but when I tell you the same I'm acting like an idiotic lout who knows nothing about "science"? What it comes down to is that our beliefs are both justifiable and can only be believed through faith....if you refuse to accept that then you are the one who is being ignorant and not listening to reason.

[NOFX]

EVERYTHING we believe in this life is based on Faith.

 

now I know that ppl out there will disagree with me because they see faith as something dealing with a religion....but think about it....if you believe in Evolution....you have the FAITH that the scientists who tell you it's true aren't lying to you or that they truely know what I'm talking about.

Negative Ghostrider, Science is based upon facts and facts are things that have been tested many and many times and are also considered TRUE.

 

Science and faith are pretty much the exact opposite. I dont use faith to determine what I believe. I started off on a clean slate and used my knowledge that i have learned throughout life and make up my own mind on what i happen. Noone has convinced me to believe in anything.

 

I was in the religion discussion here at the beginning of the semester, but I slowly got away from it. Also this semster I just finished Intro to Religion. You may say bs about the religion class, but I learned alot from it. I now have no questions and in my head everything makes perfect sense.

 

someone mentioned earlier about How some people need religion to help them live a good life. thats exactly true, but some people dont.

 

Christianity hasnt turned into what it is today by people "faking it". Christianity has always welcomed the devoted and the not so devoted, they dont care whos in it as long as people will join.

 

If I have to pick a religion, i would not go with christianity. My problem with Christianity is that people tell me it is "The Truth" and most of the time you dont ask questions. I had to go to a christmas play and this lady was yup there saying THIS IS THE TRUTH. she was up there saying Jesus died for all our sins, he sacrificed hisself for us..... MAN!!! I bet 1/100 of the people that preach that cannot even name the group of ppl that killed jesus. Which was the romans. They didnt like him because he would go around trying to get ppl to be christians, not many people did that back then cuz christains were a minorty and what happend to jesus might happen to them but today its not the minority and they can go around preaching all they want

 

i dunno if many of you know this, but the only thing that separates christians from the jews is, that christians believe this man that went around preaching the old testament was the messiah, he was killed but plans on coming back from the dead. P.S. his name happend to be jesus. But the jews think the messiah hasnt came yet and will come in the future,

 

Now I think the people with the most sense picks the religion that doesnt want to convert everyone. Such as Buddhist. They really dont even worship a god. they admire a man by the name of Buddha who had a good idea. the idea is pretty much, all you know is that your here, dont worry about...

 

Let me tell you about the oldman and the waterfall. There was a group of guys walking through the mountains and seen this old man caught at the bottem of a waterfall. He was going under and coming back up gasping for air, being spund around. So the guys watching him knew they couldnt save him, but they was going to wait till he floated out so they could at least bury him. Well, eventually the oldman floated out of the waterfall but wasnt dead. The guys watching said "How did you survive? You was getting thrashed around so much, i thought for sure you was dead" the old man replied "Well, I just didnt fight back, I just relaxed and got air when I could, I knew it had to shoot me out sometime"

 

Dunno how many of you will acctually understand that story but its an attempt to get a point across.

[Playaa]

first off...

I started off on a clean slate and used my knowledge that i have  learned throughout life

(emphasis mine)

you just proved exactly what I said...you base your life upon science and the knowledge that scientists have passed onto you....yet you only believe what they say because you have the FAITH that they are not lying to you.

The only way that you can believe them without faith is if you go out and test every single thing you learn....and I don't think any of us have the time for that.

 

second...

Christianity has always welcomed the devoted and the not so devoted, they dont care whos in it as long as people will join.

 

this statement is in error. And the fact that you make this statement based upon something that someone else told you (since you have no clue what true Christianity is then you must have gotten this information second hand at the least), it shows that faith in ppl can easily be the wrong thing to do...

 

third

your statements about Jesus and the Romans are also uninformed....you ask ANY Christian who killed Jesus and I garauntee they can tell you in a heartbeat. (the point being that these ppl truely be Christians which is shown through lifestyle not shown because they SAY they're a Christian)

And the Romans didn't kill Jesus because he was trying to get everyone to "become Christians" they killed him because he said things that the Jewish Rabbi's (called Pharisees) didn't agree with or had a hard time believing. The Pharisees of Jesus time were exactly like the ppl of our time that claim to be Christians but in reality they just attend church. They had things wrong and all messed up and cared more about the law than the heart of the law.

 

fourth...

you were mostly right about the difference between Jews and Christians...one thing you missed is that the reason the Jews don't accept Jesus as the Messiah is that they believe the Messiah will be someone of Military importance that will basically help them become a free country and get rid of all their oppressors. Consequently they don't believe in the New Testament of our Bible. There are some Jews who do believe Jesus was the Messiah, they're called Messianic Jews.

 

I'm done for now..

[NOFX]

I do not have "faith" they are not lying to me. I use my brain and see that all the information is correct. I cannot test all the information, but that is why I have a 2 hour lab each week. So we can see for ourselves its correct. Also we already know the information so we arent searching for a needle in a haystack like the people before us.

 

Christianity has always welcomed the devoted and the not so devoted, they dont care whos in it as long as people will join.

this statement is in error.  And the fact that you make this statement based upon something that someone else told you (since you have no clue what true Christianity is then you must have gotten this information second hand at the least), it shows that faith in ppl can easily be the wrong thing to do...

 

I know what christianity is, its a religion, its no different than the other 10,000 out there. Listen to your elders, you might learn something

 

ah my bad about the roman thing. I just paid attention in class and knew the romans killed jesus, but for some reason. I dont think half of the people that preach to me he died for my sins could tell me that.

[Watchtower]

The unending argument that you are speaking of is about the animals with intelligence and feelings and whatnot? Open your eyes.. Go buy a dog. lol. I don't hear Anyone saying anything like that anymore.. Now radicals like yourself might be still clinging on to the premonition that all animals are so far removed from us that they have no feelings, emotions, sense of self(dolphins like looking in a mirror). So to not, you'll have to almost start believing in evolution.. We could never do that now. we just simply Couldn't be related to animals.. Their internal systems are nothing like ours.. Their social groupings are nothing like ours.. Their physical features and personality traits are nothing like human... Think what you will, I could not be so stubbord and open my eyes. Re-read that article that I linked and tell me what you think the gist of it is.. Do you think the data that was included is wrong, or do you have "faith" that the scientist recorded their own personal findings correctly.. Or is it some big parade by "science" to try to yet again debunk the Christian religion? lol. I like people who believe nothing they read but everything they're told. Talk about skepticsm lol. I just want to focus on the animal thing at this point...

[NOFX]

what we are discussing isnt really that big of deal. Its all about christianity here. I mean look at the big picture. There is some kids on the other side of the world discussing whether their religion is correct or not and christianity is the last thing on their mind.

 

heh back to the animal thing......

i must agree with watch......All I can say with that is just take a look around....If you say they dont have feelings, then you are saying they are incapable of thinking......Well how do you teach a dog how to roll over, or how come if someone tries to fight me and my dog sees it, he gets all tinkled off and attacks that person. Keep in mind I did not train the dog to so....

*what i think by using my head, and noone has told me this*

The dog feels anger because he "thinks" I am in harm

[Playaa]

I know what christianity is, its a religion, its no different than the other 10,000 out there. Listen to your elders, you might learn something

it's proven time and time that being old does nothing when experience is lacking...and you are trying to tell me (a Christian) that you (a non Christian) know more about my faith/religion than I do............listen to those who understand...you might learn something.

 

And as to the animal argument I agree that animals are exceptionally close to humans in the ways they act and feel and that they are close in anatomy to us also. The biggest difference between us and animals...is morals. Animals DO NOT HAVE THEM! They may have instincts and actions that seem like morals to us. But could you honestly think that a dog would see a man robbing a bank and decide that he needed to stop that man because what that man was doing was wrong?

 

and as to evolution....you say that it is true and proven. We've said in the past on this forum, even evolutionary scientists say it is only a THEORY and NOT PROVEN! so...listen to your elders....you might learn something.

now I want you to try to explain to me how it could be even POSSIBLE for this universe to come into being through chance. Have you ever gambled?

 

Here is a little bit of a lesson I once did.....

 

p.s. it's in an odd format because I was writing it to show someone how to do the lesson....and I don't feel like retyping it.

 

 

 

 

take 20 6-sided dice; explain that they are amino acids (which he should know are the substances that make up nature, they make DNA which all living things in nature have) used to make a protien; to get this "protien" to work, all of the acids must be on the number 6 at the same time, otherwise you have junk and it would be discarded by nature. He should also know that each amino acid is actually about a million times more complex than a dice. A die has 6 sides, an amino acid has alot more inside it to make it work properly. Take these "amino acids" and toss them all on the table, if they don't all turn up as the number 6 repeat the actions.

 

Now after you get sick of that, tell him that it could take aproximatly 147,843,942,505,133,470,225,872,689,938,400,000,000 years for that to work. (of course it could take less time, but it could also take more). Then on the off chance that it did happen, there is about a 1 in 100 chance that nature would destroy it (it being the proteit) through different circumstances and the whole process would start again.

 

Now, after you tell him that, take each die in hand and place it on the table with the 6 facing up. That is creation.

 

so...........you explain to me how one of the simplest things in nature came about by pure chance like that? And then after that thing came about by 100% pure chance....chance made some more of those proteins and they became an organism. Which by chance became a more complex organism. Which by chance developed into a predator of that organism so that the first organism would need to evolve (again doing so by chance) to have the need to not be killed by that 2nd organism.......and so on

[Playaa]

I would just like to say that I will no longer be replying to this topic.

This topic has turned the way that EVERY SINGLE TOPIC in this forum goes. You refuse to listen to me. I refuse to listen to you. I feel like I've made good arguments and you've made poor. You feel the exact same way I'm sure. So reply all you want but I see no point anymore. We all believe what we do and no one in here is open minded enough to actually change their views.

[NOFX]

nah man, I am listening to you...I hear everything you say and im not trying to put it down in any way. I understand exactly where you come from. Im not trying to aruge at all with anyone. I am not trying to to get anyone to change their views at all. I am just trying to discuss this topic. I know as much information about one side as I do the other. It seems like you are trying to argue to change someones view, and yes I do feel you have made poor arguements, If your trying to argue, I believe I could argue your side better than you have done in your previous post.

 

Nowhere did I say the evolution is proven....cuz its not.

look at it this way...Evolution is one big puzzle....And alot of the pieces are missing, but some fit together quite well. Some people just figure that just because the peices are missing, doesnt mean it's not there.

 

Your right about the old thing. Being old is nothing without experiance. I was trying to say that most elders(such as teachers) do have experiance.

 

I did not say I know faith better than you but I do understand how faith works quite well... Just because someones faith is in christianity doesnt make that "faith" any different than other religions or other beliefs. I know what faith is I just chose not use it. The only faith that I have is that I have faith in Mokley will awp the last three guys to win the match for us. I guess you could consider me to be a pragmatist.....

 

you said how could the universe come through chance? I never said it came through chance, I didnt even mention the subject of that. I just thought we was talkin about earth. The creation of the Universe is something I do not care to worry about because the time we are in, it is impossible to tell anything. So I could say I have agnostic views on that subject.

 

there is no way animals could have morals. Morals is something Humans invented around the time we learned to communicate well with one another. All a moral is, is something that what we are "supposed" to do because it is "right". But what is a moral? Its nothing. someone just stuck a certain action with what is right and wrong. Who is that person to judge what I do? I mean dont get me wrong. Morals are a nessesity. If we didnt have morals this earth would be a living hell.

 

In no way in this post or previuous ones, was i trying to attack your faith. If i did, my apologies.

[Guest Talent]

animals have a sense of right and wrong, and to me that is morals. you don't see animals eat eachother when food is scarce. and NOFX your example of your dog helping you when you are in danger...to me that is your dogs morals of helping his master in need. just my 2 cents

[Watchtower]

"Nature's hand in morals..

In recent years popular media has run a number of stories about behavioral studies that show that young children exhibit a natural inclination toward sharing and cooperation. This trait is witnessed at a early stage in development so appears to be in-born and not simply learned or the product of environmental conditioning. This observation supports the idea of an innate social capacity among humans. It appears that in some rudimentary form, at least, this capacity is in our brain's machinery, enhanced and supported by learning but not exclusively learned. Some research with other primates also supports this observation."

that was a quote.

 

Another eye opener.

"The capacity for cooperation is an integral part of being able to live in a community. Somewhere back in human history people began working together on their common needs. For instance, together they might have put more food on the table (or ground as the case probably was) than if each individual tried to go it alone. Without cooperation there could be no society, tribal or otherwise. Presuming that the society is beneficial to the individual, the success of that individual is interwoven with that of the community. The genetic imperative that demanded "I must flourish" is forced to encompass motivation to action or inaction that is not simply of a genetic nature. The idea "We must survive" joins the genetic imperative through enlightened self interest and recognition of the changing world. The tribe's cultural memes (ideas) develop and rules and expectations of behavior are adopted in support of the success of the tribe and the self. These rules are taught by the nurturing elder, be they parent or not, and are passed on to the next generation as part of our inheritance. Early on these rules dealt directly with staying alive and productive and gave rise to other rules that established the basis for how one should live. Each generation passes more than genetic material, it passes its morals, these rules for success in life. That is, life in this tribe at least."

 

Hmmmmmmmmmmm

 

Oh and I didn't say anything about evolution being right or wrong either.. You guys are sure touchy about that E word lol. Heaven forbid it could possibly be true.. I'm so happy to have been raised ho I have.. i can see all sides of an argument. i wont necessarily agree, but at least I can see..........

[Jiffy]

yea watch you and me both. why are you people so devoted followers? were u brought up in church since you were little? was it one of those sunday familiy tradtions?...i was never forced to go, in fact we never went. i come from to different backgrounds, allowing me to see more than one side. playaa, i understand your agurment completely...as do i for nofx...but you cant blatently disregard someone elses just on faith alone. why do you follow so blindly into the unknown? i never understood how someone could honestly wholeheartedly follow something no one ever proved. Every civilization has thought of something greater than themselves...why? Do you need that false sense of security to keep you safe? to tell me that animals are in no way related is a load a crap. plain and simple. we ARE animals...animals who have used more capacity of our brain that others. we only use 10% of our brain as it is... the example of the dog by nofx was perect...my dog goes from sleepy and uncaring of the world around him to excited and jumping and happy the moment my mom walks in. she stayed home with him all summer and now he is her lifelong friend. he is extremely protective of her if need be. feeling and concious thought must occur last time i checked...ahh nvm i prolly gettin off topic and angering peeps. sorry, im just sick of these topics that only tinkle people off needlessly...gnight. -_-

[NOFX]

This post is a reply to jiffy, so noone take offense plz...

 

yea watch you and me both. why are you people so devoted followers? were u brought up in church since you were little? was it one of those sunday familiy tradtions?...

I was raised in a very small southern area, in fact we only have 2 stoplights in my town. So you can tell what kind of people i was around from just hearing that. they were the old traditional religious people. I was forced to go to church until i was about 15 when i drifted away. Not because I didnt believe, because I didnt feel like getting up so early. As i can recall i dont think I ever believed what they told me when i went to church.

 

why do you follow so blindly into the unknown? i never understood how someone could honestly wholeheartedly follow something no one ever proved. Every civilization has thought of something greater than themselves...why? Do you need that false sense of security to keep you safe?

 

humans dont like not knowing the truth. I am perfectly fine with it. But if you think about 2000 yrs ago. what other explaination did people have for us being here? Yes people want a sense of sercurity. Religion helps many many people live better lifes, so in no way is religion a bad thing. Some people use it, some people chose not to use it. Evolution is not proven either, but the way I see it...there is ALOT evidence. Even though there is peices missing to the puzzle, I can still see what is there just by lookin at what is known.

 

to tell me that animals are in no way related is a load a crap. plain and simple. we ARE animals...animals who have used more capacity of our brain that others.

 

yep, we are no different than a monkey, except our capacity for thinking is alot greater.

The saying by Decartes "I think, therefore I am" can apply to all animals.

but I doubt any animal has enough brain power to acctually think about stuff like this.....

[Jiffy]

good post nofx. i dont mean to sound down on anything, but the numerous post on this topic are just overwhelming and basically end up all the same. there is no one answer to things. this situation is no different.

[Watchtower]

Right.. Ppl are always too quick to say someones wrong. Some ppl are very strong willed. This is good. You need to have conviction. These types of topics are inflammitory. They go right to the core of the people involved in the discussion. What are the 2 things u never talk about in a bar? Religion and politics.. This my friends is a bar. We have done a good job of keeping our cool tho and I commend those that took part. I would say that this is pretty much a dead topic and has been o/t for quite some time. I'd close it. Fat can i moderate this forum? 1 more link I just came across. Not for the Christian with the weak stomach Very long. too many words for me.. I just think the first couple paragraphs are interesting for debate.. Perhaps we should start another topic..

 

http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins.htm

[Hambone]

we just simply Couldn't be related to animals.. Their internal systems are nothing like ours..  Their social groupings are nothing like ours..  Their physical features and personality traits are nothing like human...  Think what you will, I could not be so stubbord and open my eyes.  Re-read that article that I linked and tell me what you think the gist of it is..  Do you think the data that was included is wrong, or do you have "faith" that the scientist recorded their own personal findings correctly..  Or is it some big parade by "science" to try to yet again debunk the Christian religion?  lol.  I like people who believe nothing they read but everything they're told.  Talk about skepticsm  lol.  I just want to focus on the animal thing at this point...

I havent read for awhile, but I want to comment on this quote by Watchtower.

 

Wow. Animals (non-human verterbrate mammals) and Humans are so dissimilar that we couldn't be related?

 

1) Our method of replication uses the same vocabulary: DNA.

2) ALL of our proteins are made out of the same vocabulary, the same codons (words) bring tRNA in every animal.

3) Our cells are nearly identical.

4) Bone structures have markedly similair characteristics. Similiar bones are common to nearly all animals: skull, pelvis, rib cage, femurs, etc..

5) Internal systems are similiar also. Our excretory, reproductive, respiratory, circulatory systems all function the same basic way.

6) Humans and animals are social. Our social systems are not entirely different from animals. Both of us have highly developed manners of intra-specie interaction.

7) Physical traits are similiar too. We both have hair, typically 4 appendages, a defined head, etc..

 

"we just simply Couldn't be related to animals.." Not true. This is highly abbreviated, if you care to pick apart one of my bullets feel free, and I'll elaborate.

[Watchtower]

Ham, if you are implying that I myself feel that way, you should re-read that post or maybe re-read anything in the mmmministries I've written.. Don't get it twisted

[Watchtower]

we are animals.. Slightly more evolved.. err some of us anyhow...