Hambone November 20, 2002 Share Hambone Member November 20, 2002 I know absolutely nothing on the subject, just curious if some of you more religious people could fill me in. I just want to know how Christianity in general treats people of mental handicap. For example, trisomy 21 creates vegetable children. Even though development can vary, they are never independent, have enlarged features, and can't accomplish simple tasks by themselves. This disease is genetic, neither the child nor the parent plays a part in this. But these individuals can never hold up the word of God, or lead moral lives, or do any task expected of a good Christain. So, how do they look in God's eyes (to your knowledge)? Another example. Hyperphagia, another genetic disorder, causes uncontrollable eating. These children often don't live very long, and eat constantly. This is not something so mild as wanting to eat all the time, this is perpetual eating. They will eat when they are not hungry, they will never be satiated. This can not be suppresed, at all. Parents have to put locks on their cabinents and pantries, this disorder is that powerful. They can have normal intelligence, so they can have sense of moral and right and wrong, etc... There's a sin named after this though, it's called Gluttony. The child can not stop eating, so he follows most of the provisions of Gluttony. So, is this child a sinner? One other thing since I'm on a genetics rampage. I don't know if there are any gender-specific rituals in Christianity, so if there are, fill me in. I know there are Bar-Mitzvah and Bat-Mitzvahs in Judiasm though (pardon my terrible spelling). So, there are two essentially similiar rituals for males and females. So, what is a male or a female? A female has two X chromosomes. So do Kleinfelter males (XXY), who around 13 when the ceremony will be taking place, can often develop female secondary sex characteristics (breasts namely). Then a male has the Y chromosome. So do the rare cases of complete androgen insensitivity (forgot the formal name). Basically, for some strange reason, when the cells of the to-be baby start differentiating (by the way, we all start out as females), for a strange reason the male hormone coded for by the presence of the Y chromosome has no effect. So, the embryo stays female, even though every cell has the Y sex chromosome. "She" has external female genitilia, but is sterile and has the karyotype of a male. So, which ritual would this person take place in? Thanks for indulging me if you have any answers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ak2786 November 20, 2002 Share Ak2786 Member November 20, 2002 Bar and Bat mitzvahs are exactly the same with just different names so it wouldn't matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gOOters November 20, 2002 Share gOOters Member November 20, 2002 i wish the old rollseyes was still on here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest [DOH]TaPe November 20, 2002 Share Guest [DOH]TaPe Guests November 20, 2002 A female has two X chromosomes. So do Kleinfelter males (XXY), who around 13 when the ceremony will be taking place, can often develop female secondary sex characteristics (breasts namely). Klein... what? Before you answer, do I want to know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hambone November 20, 2002 Author Share Hambone Member November 20, 2002 Sigh. The invasion has begun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gOOters November 20, 2002 Share gOOters Member November 20, 2002 ask Bart-O Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playaa November 20, 2002 Share Playaa Member November 20, 2002 trisomy 21: Christianity isn't about works so someone sitting in a chair their entire life and never leaving it or doing anything "holy" as you say doesn't differ from someone who does "holy" things every day Hyperphagia: the sin of gluttony is always confused. Gluttony origionally had NOTHING to do with overeating. Gluttony is overindulgence in anything to the point that it is not necessary. A child with the disease of Hyperphagia has no control over their want for food therefore therefore their eating would in a sense be necessary and not gluttony. (I say again gluttony is a concious choice of overindulgence) Bar/Bat-Mitzvahs have nothing to do with Christianity therefore...this statement is erroneous and pointless... Hambone...maybe one day you'll begin to understand. Christianity is about love...get it? Love that you can't explain or understand in your life. Mmmm has been utterly kind to you and it's my opinion that they should make you leave these forums entirely. Your questions are never for learning or gaining knowledge. They are always made in a way to try to bring discredit to Christianity. This forum was origionally made so that Christians could get together and talk and pray about things together. It was not made to be your personal playground of insults. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest UberNewb November 20, 2002 Share Guest UberNewb Guests November 20, 2002 Actually (and I'm not saying I haven't had my various run-ins with this forum as well) I was quite curious myself when I read Hammeh's post. I mean, there are circumstances where the rules are a bit fuzzy. Not to say that there aren't clear answers to them that I just don't know, but he's just trying to look at some things in religion that have to do with science as well. Lets try not to be hostile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playaa November 20, 2002 Share Playaa Member November 20, 2002 I'm fine with someone wanting to learn more about my religion (as I've showed readily in the past with Orbital) but I'm about 99% positive that Hambone is not posting because he wants to learn more, he's posting to try to point out errors and is trying to prove Christianity wrong. And that's what I'm sick of...like I said...this forum isn't here for Hambone to do his best to disprove Christianity... but hey...Hamb0wnz if I'm wrong...tell me... I will apologize if I'm wrong about you... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ak2786 November 20, 2002 Share Ak2786 Member November 20, 2002 No Tape you do not want to know the symptoms of the Kleinfelter disease Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hambone November 21, 2002 Author Share Hambone Member November 21, 2002 You completely misinterpreted my post and failed to respond validly to any of the questions I announced as purely curiousity. I hope you enjoy looking stupid, and you've made an enemy. As for your backlash about my Bar/Bat-Mitzvah example, it had nothing to do with Christianity at all. It wasn't supposed to. It was to illustrate another genetic issue latent in religion and society that I wanted to know how religion adressed. But I agree with you. I should be banned from the forums entirely for this post. If anyone knows about this and cares to share with me, I'd be interested to hear what you have to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartless November 21, 2002 Share Heartless Member November 21, 2002 Even if Hambone was trying to point out errors in Christianity.. big deal? Its not that hard. Personally I think Christianity has lots of problems.. and he made some good points.. back off just a bit playaa and don't get so up-tight.. its just a religion.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playaa November 21, 2002 Share Playaa Member November 21, 2002 first off Hambone...I'm sorry I misinterpretted your post... Second, I was pretty sure my answers (at least the first two) answered your questions of how religion deals with those things pretty well....what did I miss? as to the 3rd one that came off in the wrong way...I wasn't saying you were erroneous...I thought you were talking about Christianity specifically (since you said "how Christianity deals with"...so I was saying Christianity doesn't do Bar-Mitzvahs....sorry that came off the wrong way. back off just a bit playaa and don't get so up-tight.. its just a religion.. Heartlessnothing against you Heartless, but that right there is the reason I get upset. That statement implies that it is completely unimportant. Yet it IS my life....it is everything I believe in and what leads me daily. So that statement basically says my life is pointless and unimportant. See why that would make me mad? What would you have said to me if I had told you to not get so upset about Alonie?(sp?) He truely matters to you and means alot...so it would have made you angry had I just treated the situation as if it were pointless... once again not trying to make anyone angry....just trying to explain myself further... also: you've made an enemy - Hambone I was pretty sure from conversations we've had in the past that you didn't like me anyway...so I'm not sure why this would be any different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartless November 21, 2002 Share Heartless Member November 21, 2002 I just don't think religion should become someones WHOLE LIFE.. if u live completely by the bible how are u suppose to be ur own person and do things ur own way? And if u ever treated my situation with Alonie as pointless I would have been fine with it, you know why? Not because it wasn't, but more cause its my life, not urs and I don't care what you think or do. I'm not going to preach to you about how to live your life like they do to you in church but in stead im gonna just say I hate religion and keep my mouth shut from here on out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurtz November 21, 2002 Share Kurtz Member November 21, 2002 Hambone...maybe one day you'll begin to understand. Christianity is about love...get it? Love that you can't explain or understand in your life. bs religion is based on views of people who didnt like or agree with the one that came before it and then has the nerve to tell others there going to hell because they dont see things the way you do.Your quickness to ban him and your anger towards him shows just that.Something being about love needs to show that love even to the ones that dont believe in it.Religion in all forms is nothing more than a money machine fueled by fear of the unknown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playaa November 21, 2002 Share Playaa Member November 21, 2002 Heart - the Bible doesn't tell me to get up at 6 in the morning and begin my day worshipping God. It doesn't tell me who my friends are. It doesn't tell me what job to get. It doesn't tell me to live my life as a cookie cutter just like every other Christian out there. It places the outline I fill in the blanks... Kurtz - my quickness to anger from Hambones post stems from past conversations with him in which he basically called myself, Rev, Fatty and a few others idiots because we didn't believe in what he says is truth. Oddly enough the exact reasons ppl say religion is stupid, because it won't accept others views. Yet also oddly enough...all of the ppl who will so readily call down the "religious" ppl for being "close-minded" haven't and won't say a thing to Hambone or others about their lack of acceptance. I suppose in this world coins aren't really 2 sided. Also Kurtz your saying I need to have love for those who don't understand is basing your entire view of me off of one post on a message board on the internet. You've never met me in real life and if you had you'd know that I am exceptionally loving of pretty much everyone. I just happen to be alot more open about my feelings on the internet. Heck if I were to base my opinions of ppl on one post alone I could say you were a jerk...but I know you're not because I've seen other posts you have. You seem like a great guy with one post that is made in anger. To both of you, religion does not lead my life. Christianity does. There's a vastly huge difference between religion and Christianity, though you don't and won't see it until you meet true Christians in person and learn more about their life. I've already apologized to Hambone, and I really am sorry I misinterpretted his questions. I answered them in anger and I'm sorry for that. All I can do now is hope he forgives me. I'm also sorry I ever came back to this board because I realized long ago that this board is no longer a board for Christians to talk to each other but a board for ppl to flame and mock Christianity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConGregation November 21, 2002 Share ConGregation Member November 21, 2002 Good post, Playaa. I too have avoided even reading this board. The topic "mental disabilities" caught my eye though. It is very tough when people who have no idea of what you really believe start condemning you out right. I personally cant take it. I have tried and tried to explain my beliefs but people just dont seem to listen and lump me in with all religion. But I know my Lord and I love Him. Its real to me and I enjoy this relationship immensely. Is it wrong for me to try and share that with others? It only offends if people dont understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playaa November 21, 2002 Share Playaa Member November 21, 2002 w00t... I actually asked Fatty to ban me from this forum...I don't think he has... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest [DOH]TaPe November 22, 2002 Share Guest [DOH]TaPe Guests November 22, 2002 Is it wrong for me to try and share that with others? It only offends if people dont understand. Offense is in the eye of the beholder. Put yourself in his or her shoes and think about it for a minute. When you try and convince somebody who doesn't want to be convinced, of course they won't appreciate it. When you answer their questions with what you know, without forcing beliefs on them, they will be much more understanding. A major 'problem' I see with many religions is the entire convertion belief being taken too extreme - you don't have to convince everybody that you are right and force them to accept your beliefs... wait, you shouldn't force your beliefs on other people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gond November 22, 2002 Share Gond Member November 22, 2002 Well, to get back to the original question: Isn't it true that god considers children to be innocent of all sin because they are not (this might sound wrong) capable of being responsible for their actions? If this is so, than a person who was severely mentaly handicapped would be considered a child in mind and spirit and thus be an innocent for their whole life. On the rest of the topic: Religion is great. Has lots of wonderful values that the world needs. I think the existence of god is a personal belief. I think anyone who would argue the values of religion as being wrong will end up in jail or friendless one day...maybe both. As far as people asking these questions in an attempt to discredit religion and your beliefs...think of it as a way for you to further solidify your belief. Once you answer the questions/challenges, you can be that much stronger. Besides, it gives you something to talk about that you appear to love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartless November 22, 2002 Share Heartless Member November 22, 2002 I was never exposed to any religion when i was younger, and im still not exposed much. When I dated my exboyfriend, his family was VERY religious and yeah i agree with you Gond that it may have some very good values but I also agree with TaPe that religion is forcing ur opinions on other people. No 2 people could exactly believe in the same thing everyone has different views.. and some religions don't allow that. Thats what tinklees me off. And when I witnessed my exboyfriend forced to go to night classes and such to learn about his religion I almost tinkled my pants! Religion should be a choice or people will never be able to appriciate it. I chose not to have a religion, which is kind of a religion in itself, but we wont go there.. and what I did experience from my exboyfriends family is wonderful but for kids who are forced to go to chruch and temple and what not will never understand the values of the religion.. at least in my eyes they wont. Even after all I saw that religion did for their family I still would never choose to have one, I don't think believing in God will get u further in life. I disagree with Gond on one thing though I think anyone who would argue the values of religion as being wrong will end up in jail or friendless one day...maybe both. I think people can make their own values and be fine in life. I have my own beliefs on what happens after we die or who 'controls' us or who 'created' us and I think I will do just fine. For the time in my life that I did believe in God.. my life was hell, not that its not now, but once I stopped I opened my eyes to many other things and many other religions and people. grr.. what am i getting at? I'm done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Slayer November 26, 2002 Share Shadow Slayer Member November 26, 2002 well first off. the mentaly handicapped i belive are covered in the verse when christ said forbid not the little children to come unto me. i belive in gods eyes the mentaly handicapped are the same as children. they have the same mentality level. and with the gluttony thing,,,, glutony a sin of willingness. the bible also says he that Knoweth to do right and doeth it not to him it is sin. i dont think that you could place any genetic disfunction under sin except in the context of everything being perfect before sin entered the world. genetic disfunctions are a result of sin but not a sin in and of themselves. the bible makes it very plain that god loves the people that society casts out. in one of gods parables the good man of the house (symbolizing God) tells his servant to go invite a bunch of good people to a feast he had prepared. well they all found excuses not to come so the man sent his servant out and commanded him to go to the high ways and bye ways and find the weak and the maim and the halt and comppel them to come in that his house may be full. well that proves Gods love for the outcasts. but there is more meaning to this verse then that. in the parable the servant would be us the saved people who are trying to do Gods will. so we should be the ones going out and finding these people and bringing them in that Gods house (the church ) may be full. S.S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower November 28, 2002 Share Watchtower Member November 28, 2002 Well see Heartless, the problem with that, and what Christians have to believe is that if you don't accept Jesus Christ as your savior, you goto hell. Don't matter how good of a person you are, or what you did in life, it all hinges on that fact. That's my major problem. we've gotten off topic here. As far as the validity of Hambones question, I have often wondered that same thing. Now the bar-mitzwhatever thing, I'd say that whatever sex the person identified with would determine the ceremony. Issues as personal as that would shape the way they dealt with their religion and the way religion deals with them. Fundamentalists will disagree. Talk about openmindedness.. There is only 1 true way... I know it and I'm not tellin anyone!! You're all gonna burn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh, playaa, I would say if you can't take the fact that people are going to disagree with you and your views(as you do mine), you shouldn't come in here anymore.. If you still choose to, I would take these post with a grain of salt. Adress the question and not make something personal out of it. This thread would have been dead by now and if you want this to be a place for " christians to talk", I'd recommend you starting a thread concerning some issues You want to talk about... Easy as that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConGregation November 28, 2002 Share ConGregation Member November 28, 2002 This is where it gets scary. Everyone has their own ideas and beliefs. What if yours is wrong? What if mine is right? I tried to stress this from the beginning. Christians base their beliefs in the Bible. Yet every jack and his dog thinks his opinions (with no Bible basis) is right. You see, Watch, I CANT base such extreme beliefs in my imagination or training by any person including parents or religious leader. It has to be a real experience with GOD himself. That can only happen when I through the Bible am brought to a knowledge of Him. If God, in His Bible, teaches such hard things as hell and eternity; should I just ignore it when the Bible has been proven true in my life. You cant argue philosophy and religion. They are at polar opposites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playaa November 28, 2002 Share Playaa Member November 28, 2002 Watch...yeah I should learn to keep my mouth shut...and I was going to edit my post but then I figured I'd look like a punk to ppl who had already read it....so instead I just apologized....(apparently everyone missed that one) to anyone that thinks we can each make our own values and our own "right and wrong" go read "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis... the basic problem is this....if we can each make our own values then if I come to your house and murder you there is nothing wrong with that. And no one can tell me there is and if the government says they can tell me that it's wrong because they have more power then I don't really care since they don't have power over my universe, they only think they do so when they come try to take me I go on a rampage and hold hundreds of children hostage in a school and kill them one by one because there's nothing wrong with that. And those terrorists on 9-11...well they didn't do anything wrong because they were doing right by their values and if I say they were wrong then I'm imposing my beliefs on them which I don't think ppl should do to me so I shouldn't do it to them...so basically if they ever decide to kill anyone else again I should say absolutely nothing....because they're just following their values and doing what's right in their eyes. How can I tell them what's right since ppl shouldn't oppose what others think.... anyone else see the problem there? basically my point is this....there ARE absolute right and wrong determined by some being with the power to determine them... if there weren't then me killing you and you fighting back is a paradox since you can't tell me what's wrong. However, you NOT fighting back is a paradox since you don't want to die. So basically the belief that we determine our own right and wrong....it's filled with so many holes it's unbelievable...and ppl don't even bother to think it through cause it's the easy way out......... my 1.56 cents... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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